Simplified hydraulic steering

[ofer]

need a simple solution for hydraulic steering.

My thoughts....

Reversing auto pilot pump and homemade reservoir of some kind.

Reversing momentary switch. right/left off

Am I missing anything?

 

[FF]

A belt to the engine with an auto power steering pump is very reliable.

The autopilot pump might be a fine get home .

Solenoids can operate the auto pilot from the PS pump using the existing steering cylinder..

 

[O C Diver]

need a simple solution for hydraulic steering.

My thoughts....

Reversing auto pilot pump and homemade reservoir of some kind.

Reversing momentary switch. right/left off

Am I missing anything?

I went through the same considerations when rebuilding my steering system. 99% of the time I'm either on autopilot or steering through autopilot either with a jog lever, knob or buttons. The issue is, "what's your plan for a failure of the autopilot pump, computer, or rudder feedback"? I chose to rebuild the helm pump for redundancy.

Ted

 

[ofer]

I went through the same considerations when rebuilding my steering system. 99% of the time I'm either on autopilot or steering through autopilot either with a jog lever, knob or buttons. The issue is, "what's your plan for a failure of the autopilot pump, computer, or rudder feedback"? I chose to rebuild the helm pump for redundancy.

Ted

This system would be the secondary backup system to main steering. I know i can do it with an autopilot system and a lever which i already have as my main setup and i use 99% of the time.

I was hoping to skip a new AP setup and just go with a much simpler system since it is a redundant system only.

wasn't sure if it's as simple as i described or i am missing something.

 

[Gdavid]

A belt to the engine with an auto power steering pump is very reliable.

The autopilot pump might be a fine get home .

Solenoids can operate the auto pilot from the PS pump using the existing steering cylinder..

I am assuming that this is for his backup outboard steering, if so the main engine wouldn't be available to drive a automotive style power steering pump.

A reservoir from a hynautic steering system would serve the purpose of the home made reservoir that ofer proposed. They have a sight glass for easily checking level and are relatively cheap.

 

[ofer]

I am assuming that this is for his backup outboard steering, if so the main engine wouldn't be available to drive a automotive style power steering pump.
.

Exactly!

Thanks, i just didn't want to mention the OB since it could derail this post. you did it for me so it's not my fault now

 

[Gdavid]

Exactly!

Thanks, i just didn't want to mention the OB since it could derail this post. you did it for me so it's not my fault now

Yup, I'll accept my role in that. But in all seriousness, a system like you are proposing could work fine and then you even have autopilot functionality for slow ride back to civilization or if nothing else it could maintain your bearing while you make emergency repairs to the main engine.

 

[O C Diver]

Wonder if anyone makes an electric linear actuator that would work. Do the outboards driven by computers still use hydraulics?

Ted

 

[sean9c]

I'd though of doing something like that. The stumbler for me has always been. How am I going to turn off the pump when you get to the end of travel? You don't really want to just ram into your rudder stop or have the pump continue to run when you're at the end of your stroke. You need some sort of limit switches, it's not really practical to think that I'll just let go of the button when I get there.

 

[Gdavid]

I'd though of doing something like that. The stumbler for me has always been. How am I going to turn off the pump when you get to the end of travel? You don't really want to just ram into your rudder stop or have the pump continue to run when you're at the end of your stroke. You need some sort of limit switches, it's not really practical to think that I'll just let go of the button when I get there.

It is straightforward to configure with an autopilot, the computer uses the steering input that you provide and a rudder position sensor or a "virtual position sensor" to keep track of that. The ram also has a stop and bypass valves to prevent damage. No need to reinvent the wheel, just incorporating existing tech.

 

[ofer]

Wonder if anyone makes an electric linear actuator that would work. Do the outboards driven by computers still use hydraulics?

Ted

fly by wire is only available for the higher HP outboards Honda just interduced it for their 115 and up. OH its very expensive as in thousands.

the rest have an hydraulic cylinder available.

 

[ofer]

I'd though of doing something like that. The stumbler for me has always been. How am I going to turn off the pump when you get to the end of travel? You don't really want to just ram into your rudder stop or have the pump continue to run when you're at the end of your stroke. You need some sort of limit switches, it's not really practical to think that I'll just let go of the button when I get there.

yes very good point!

for now, i will rely on rudder feedback display. after I proof my project i will install an AP with lever.

 

[sean9c]

Sure, works great if you incorporate the RAI limit stops, but the OP was just pump and buttons.
AFAIK, bypass valves are usually set 1000 psi, sure it's ok to hit it occasionally but I doubt if any system was intended to have a situation where you hit it and have sustained pressure. Also seems like the majority of pleasure boats have no mechanical rudder stops, so you're going to be banging into whatever does mechanically stop your rudder and continue to force it.
Also by the time you've actuated the bypass valve you've probably put about 800 psi into your system that it's not use to.

It is straightforward to configure with an autopilot, the computer uses the steering input that you provide and a rudder position sensor or a "virtual position sensor" to keep track of that. The ram also has a stop and bypass valves to prevent damage. No need to reinvent the wheel, just incorporating existing tech.

 

[Gdavid]

Sure, works great if you incorporate the RAI limit stops, but the OP was just pump and buttons.
AFAIK, bypass valves are usually set 1000 psi, sure it's ok to hit it occasionally but I doubt if any system was intended to have a situation where you hit it and have sustained pressure. Also seems like the majority of pleasure boats have no mechanical rudder stops, so you're going to be banging into whatever does mechanically stop your rudder and continue to force it.
Also by the time you've actuated the bypass valve you've probably put about 800 psi into your system that it's not use to.

Good points, I'm assuming that he would be using a jog lever that is compatible for the autohelm computer it is communicating with, not just analog switches directly to the reversing pump. Assumptions are dangerous and I should have asked.

 

[twistedtree]

What you are proposing is indeed just a jog level. It's nothing more than two switches, one of which activates when the lever is moved in each direction. It just turns on the steering pump in the commanded direction, and stops when you let go of the lever. No intervening AP is required, but at least a rudder indicator is useful, if not essential.

 

[ofer]

What you are proposing is indeed just a jog level. It's nothing more than two switches, one of which activates when the lever is moved in each direction. It just turns on the steering pump in the commanded direction, and stops when you let go of the lever. No intervening AP is required, but at least a rudder indicator is useful, if not essential.

thank you! that's what i will do for now.

 

[Gdavid]

What you are proposing is indeed just a jog level. It's nothing more than two switches, one of which activates when the lever is moved in each direction. It just turns on the steering pump in the commanded direction, and stops when you let go of the lever. No intervening AP is required, but at least a rudder indicator is useful, if not essential.

You are far more experienced at specing out boats than I am, but to my knowledge, most jog levers are operating with low amperage/current and the autopilot computer serves as both a solenoid to provide higher amperage that the pump requires, this also will provide the logic to prevent slamming against the end of the ram's travel. There are also hydraulic jog levers that are directly controlling the flow, but this would require a constant pressure pump like a automotive style belt driven ot pto driven pump.

 

[KnotYet]

Sure, works great if you incorporate the RAI limit stops, but the OP was just pump and buttons.
AFAIK, bypass valves are usually set 1000 psi, sure it's ok to hit it occasionally but I doubt if any system was intended to have a situation where you hit it and have sustained pressure. Also seems like the majority of pleasure boats have no mechanical rudder stops, so you're going to be banging into whatever does mechanically stop your rudder and continue to force it.
Also by the time you've actuated the bypass valve you've probably put about 800 psi into your system that it's not use to.

Bypass valves are usually adjustable for actuation pressure as are hydraulic power
units for max operating pressure. The ram itself can be spec'ed with soft stops.

 

[sean9c]

I've not seen rams with soft stops, can you provide a link? I've installed Kobelt, Seastar and whatever Tony Athens sells and not seen anything related to soft stops.

Bypass valves are usually adjustable for actuation pressure as are hydraulic power
units for max operating pressure. The ram itself can be spec'ed with soft stops.

 

[KnotYet]

I've not seen rams with soft stops, can you provide a link? I've installed Kobelt, Seastar and whatever Tony Athens sells and not seen anything related to soft stops.

I realize that the standard hydraulic steering rams may not provide this but
I'm referring to the cushioning commonly available on industrial cylinders to
reduce mechanical shock. These could be used if ofer decides to 'roll his own'.

 

[twistedtree]

You are far more experienced at specing out boats than I am, but to my knowledge, most jog levers are operating with low amperage/current and the autopilot computer serves as both a solenoid to provide higher amperage that the pump requires, this also will provide the logic to prevent slamming against the end of the ram's travel. There are also hydraulic jog levers that are directly controlling the flow, but this would require a constant pressure pump like a automotive style belt driven ot pto driven pump.

I think you are correct that having an intervening AP is common, and addresses the issue you bring up. TF boats probably use reversing pumps more than continuous pumps with solenoid valves, so your point about switching currents is quite valid and needs to be considered. That said, one of the nice things about simple switching on and off of the pump is the simplicity of it, and not relying on anything other than the pump and switches. As such I think it makes for a great backup, which I think is what the OP was after.

 

[Bmarler]

if we're just talking about a "get home" type of system, there are plenty of inexpensive electric linear actuators with built in travel limits. the thing that's the biggest challenge with them is travel speed vs. torque. you get past the voltage drop problem using relays close to the point of use, and a simple joystick at the helm to fire the relays. these actuators are small enough to cover the whole thing with a bellows for protection, or just use quick release pins and a plug set if you want to deploy it.
like these: https://www.progressiveautomations....-ip68m-for-outdoor-use?variant=31290949763139

not appropriate for primary steering, but for a back up solution.

 

[Bmarler]

another idea i was working on with my last boat was based on a 12 volt hydraulic power pack. this was a primary steering solution for fly by wire. again, you need relays at the power unit to control it, and has been mentioned, cylinders with cushions can be used instead of physical stops and rudder feedback. an adjustable cross port relief will absorb any sudden shock loads or coming to the end of the cylinder stroke.
i was planning on autopilot integration using the on/off output from an autopilot. never finished it though, sold the boat. still have the new power pack and relief valve in the shop somewhere.

 

[Gdavid]

Just saw an article about steer by wire retrofit this morning:

https://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/...ert-your-outboard-boat-to-electronic-steering

 

[Bmarler]

Just saw an article about steer by wire retrofit this morning:

https://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/...ert-your-outboard-boat-to-electronic-steering

the optimus product has been out for a while now, i looked at it but it's still pretty expensive. looks like good stuff though. there's an inboard solution too.

 

[Gdavid]

the optimus product has been out for a while now, i looked at it but it's still pretty expensive. looks like good stuff though. there's an inboard solution too.

I didn't check the age of the article and am not surprised that solutions have been out for a while, I just popped (edit) up somehow as a suggested article and I remembered this thread. I also didn' t bother to check all the oosts.

Ofer could simplify the whole challenge and solve it with a 2"x4" and a roll of duct tape.

 

[Bmarler]

I didn't check the age of the article and am not surprised that solutions have been out for a while, I just pooped up somehow as a suggested article and I remembered this thread. I also didn' t bother to check all the oosts.

Ofer could simplify the whole challenge and solve it with a 2"x4" and a roll of duct tape.

that would indeed be simple.

 

[ofer]

Ofer could simplify the whole challenge and solve it with a 2"x4" and a roll of duct tape.

Please elaborate

 

[Gdavid]

Please elaborate

I was referring to something similar to this example. Of course it would have to be angled up to clear the transom.

My apologies of course, it was not a serious suggestion.

 

[ofer]

I have rigged my steering for my kicker outboard. on the Warn all you need is the main relay box