Should we opt for Lithium Iron batteries (LiFePo) over Lead Acid kind?

[Delfin]

Thanks for the reply


Thought as much
Have been trying to avoid the $1000 spend (in Oz) on one of those
+ $500 for a single DC to DC charger
Not worth it for my 50amp alt.

Back to the drawing board for me




My mistake
I thought the alt charged FLA start and DC to DC charge went from FLA start to Lifepo4

.
And underway is something I would like to get happening but using the 120amp charger that our victron multiplus has.
I have an additional 50 amp victron Phoenix charger sitting in a locker doing nothing I would like to bring into play as well

Back to looking at the Mecc Alte 10kva belt driven Genset head
That'll run both easily.

That extra oomph is nice when the Genset is running
Should look at doing same with the spare 50amp Phoenix we have




It's exactly how we treat ours but getting the bloody things back to full without running the Genset for several hours is the issue
Unseasonal rainy weather has not helped our 2.5kw solar installation.

Never quite understood the attraction of dc to dc chargers. Their low amperage output doesn't take advantage of a decent LFP's charge acceptance rate. The same function is accomplished with two rotary battery switches that will carry a lot more juice, although that requires active management by a person to direct charge output current to the desired destination. Compromises.....

 

[MV Justace]

Victron Phoenix Inverters

Can someone tell me if a Victron Phoenix Inverter 24/3000 system can be adapted/ switched to a 12V system. Only asking as I can get from a friend who has upgraded his system to lithium and has offered inverter to me but we are 12V with 3 x 120V lithium batteries and Bluetooth MPPT 100/30 controller & Victron Bluetooth shunt.
Cheers Robin

 

[catalinajack]

And we went through this on another thread and you didn't back up that claim.



Let me try using trojan T105 in comparison to our EVE 280 lifepo4 24v bank @ 840ah.



Random look on the interwebs has a 6v 220ah T105 trojan @$147 usd



https://advantagebatteries.com/shop/trojan-t105-6v-battery/



4 X makes a 24v @ 220ah = $588

4 X makes a 24v @ 880ah = $2352

BUT

That only gives 440ah usable

To get up to the 840 ah usable that we enjoy with lifepo4 we need to double that trojan bank again



So that makes it T105 6v X 32 for $4704

Plus

A huge amount of space used

896 kg vs 120kg (1975 lb vs 260lb)

And excessive amounts of battery cable and terminals to connect it all.



So on that it seems it's going to be every bit of $5000 USD to get a flooded lead acid bank that can match the usable ah of our lifepo4 bank.



Our lifepo4 bank of 24 X 3.2v cells to make 840ah @ 24 v cost $3670 usd

And that included 3 BMS and all busbars and nuts for connecting the cells.



Looks to me like that's cheaper than flooded lead acid



Screenshot below of Alibaba invoice

To get 840ah usable at 12 volts would require 16 T-105s. Locally sourced, I can buy 16 for $2,600. And Simi, you used untested Alibaba batteries. If using Battleborn or Dakota or Lithionics or Victron, the numbers are quite different.

A Battleborn 100 ah battery costs $874. Useable amps are 85. Therefore, I would need 10 to get to your 840 number. That would cost $8,740, more than triple the cost of FLA. Given that my simple, old, 100-year-old technology batteries are now six years old and test out to 97% of original capacity, I'm guessing that my batteries will last 10 years based on my use pattern. So, in 24 years, using FLA I will have spent 2/3 of the cost of a lithium bank. And, by the way, in 24 years I will be 96 years old and likely to have been dead and buried for at least a few years. So, tell me again how lithium is cheaper. And that does not even consider the time value of money which extends the equation at least another 10 years in respect to return on investment. And all for what?

 

[SteveK]

Can someone tell me if a Victron Phoenix Inverter 24/3000 system can be adapted/ switched to a 12V system. Only asking as I can get from a friend who has upgraded his system to lithium and has offered inverter to me but we are 12V with 3 x 120V lithium batteries and Bluetooth MPPT 100/30 controller & Victron Bluetooth shunt.
Cheers Robin

I suspect that you change to 24v battery setup to use that inverter. There are benefits so consider doing so. The inverter (charger) should also charge 24v so no problem. The 3 x 120v lithium is confusing me however, did you mean 3x 12v, get a fourth, make 24 volt.

 

[SteveK]

To get 840ah usable at 12 volts would require 16 T-105s. Locally sourced, I can buy 16 for $2,600. And Simi, you used untested Alibaba batteries. If using Battleborn or Dakota or Lithionics or Victron, the numbers are quite different.

A Battleborn 100 ah battery costs $874. Useable amps are 85. Therefore, I would need 10 to get to your 840 number. That would cost $8,740, more than triple the cost of FLA. Given that my simple, old, 100-year-old technology batteries are now six years old and test out to 97% of original capacity, I'm guessing that my batteries will last 10 years based on my use pattern. So, in 24 years, using FLA I will have spent 2/3 of the cost of a lithium bank. And, by the way, in 24 years I will be 96 years old and likely to have been dead and buried for at least a few years. So, tell me again how lithium is cheaper. And that does not even consider the time value of money which extends the equation at least another 10 years in respect to return on investment. And all for what?

Thanks for that comparison. We all do need to live in the moment.

 

[Simi 60]

To get 840ah usable at 12 volts would require 16 T-105s. Locally sourced, I can buy 16 for $2,600. And Simi, you used untested Alibaba batteries. If using Battleborn or Dakota or Lithionics or Victron, the numbers are quite different.

A Battleborn 100 ah battery costs $874. Useable amps are 85. Therefore, I would need 10 to get to your 840 number. That would cost $8,740, more than triple the cost of FLA. Given that my simple, old, 100-year-old technology batteries are now six years old and test out to 97% of original capacity, I'm guessing that my batteries will last 10 years based on my use pattern. So, in 24 years, using FLA I will have spent 2/3 of the cost of a lithium bank. And, by the way, in 24 years I will be 96 years old and likely to have been dead and buried for at least a few years. So, tell me again how lithium is cheaper. And that does not even consider the time value of money which extends the equation at least another 10 years in respect to return on investment. And all for what?

Again you are getting it wrong
We have 840 useable @ 24v
That needs 32 t105 to be comparable

If only doing 840ah @ 12v the lifepo4 would cost us $1800usd
So still cheaper than your T105 battery.

And the batteries and technology is tested
EVE have been in the game for over 20 years vs battleborns 10 years
And full testing data for each cell was provided before shipment.

 

[MV Justace]

Sorry mate I meant AH! Our system is all 12 Volt and had only just upgraded to lithium due to the availability of reasonable cost lithium to replace 8 x 12V wet batteries, but could only afford 3 X 120AH at this stage at $900 (were $1500 AUS) each already have a 1500 watt inverter connected. Was just hoping this 24v/3000 inverter could be switched for use. If not no worries have not purchased it yet anyway.
Cheers Robin

 

[Simi 60]

.

A Battleborn 100 ah battery costs $874. Useable amps are 85. Therefore, I would need 10 to get to your 840 number. That would cost $8,740, more than triple the cost of FLA.

Ridiculous thinking expensive LFP brands are the only option

It's like saying it costs too much to have a car because Ferraris are expensive but ignoring Hyundai's or Toyotas as perfectly acceptable vehicles.

Given that my simple, old, 100-year-old technology batteries are now six years old and test out to 97% of original capacity, I'm guessing that my batteries will last 10 years based on my use pattern.

Great, pretty silly to replace what still works
Let's see what happens in 10 years time

So, in 24 years, using FLA I will have spent 2/3 of the cost of a lithium bank. And, by the way, in 24 years I will be 96 years old and likely to have been dead and buried for at least a few years. So, tell me again how lithium is cheaper. And that does not even consider the time value of money which extends the equation at least another 10 years in respect to return on investment. And all for what?

As pointed out earlier your maths was flawed.

LFP is cheaper if you need to replace your batteries now which we did
And, you actually use your boat daily, which we do.

 

[catalinajack]

Again you are getting it wrong
We have 840 useable @ 24v
That needs 32 t105 to be comparable

If only doing 840ah @ 12v the lifepo4 would cost us $1800usd
So still cheaper than your T105 battery.

And the batteries and technology is tested
EVE have been in the game for over 20 years vs battleborns 10 years
And full testing data for each cell was provided before shipment.

No, sir, numbers do not lie. I have laid out a comparison for you several times.

 

[catalinajack]

Ridiculous thinking expensive LFP brands are the only option

It's like saying it costs too much to have a car because Ferraris are expensive but ignoring Hyundai's or Toyotas as perfectly acceptable vehicles.



Great, pretty silly to replace what still works
Let's see what happens in 10 years time


As pointed out earlier your maths was flawed.

LFP is cheaper if you need to replace your batteries now which we did
And, you actually use your boat daily, which we do.

Of course expensive brands are not the only options in lithium. Same is true for just about anything. What I have learned in life is that one gets what one pays for, a lesson learned over and over again. So, yes, my numbers are accurate when compared to brands of known quality. What you have is from the Alibaba crap-shoot. Some folks are simply not willing to take that chance. So, yes, the numbers work for you but not anyone else not willing to take that chance. Your Ferrari vs Toyota comparison is ridiculous as both are of proven quality. Alibaba vs Victron is not.

 

[mvweebles]

Will Prowse review of cheap LiFePO4 batteries. Tear down to show internals.

https://youtu.be/KvCdo0cs99w

For cheap LiFePO4 he likes SOK brand. Feels they are innovating over the years vs some of the name brands (Battleborne?) Have remained static.

SOK 200 ah 12v SOK (effectively $500/battery). https://a.co/d/3Ie0Sdy

Chins/AmpereTime are decent batteries at $380 (Amazon, delivered) for100ah/12v.

https://youtu.be/xBonGQe363g

Bottom line - there are viable alternatives for LiFePO4 batteries in the $400-$500 range.

Personally, I've never gotten more than about 4-years out of a FLA bank (six x 6v) and by then, pretty shot and a PITA to replace. If I had CatalinaJacks experience of 6+ years and 97% (which is much better than even LiFePO4 is rated), I would definitely be in his camp. But that has not been my experience - LiFePO4 for me is a no-brainer

If I wanted 300 ah usable, I could stick with 6x6v (400 lbs) for around $700 and maybe get 4-years. Or I could get four 100ah cheap LiFePO4s for under $1400 and they'd last 10-years, charge faster, have less lag, take less space, and only weigh 125 lbs.

Peter

 

[chilliwackteryx4]

Never quite understood the attraction of dc to dc chargers. Their low amperage output doesn't take advantage of a decent LFP's charge acceptance rate. The same function is accomplished with two rotary battery switches that will carry a lot more juice, although that requires active management by a person to direct charge output current to the desired destination. Compromises.....

Based on my research and I’m no expert, Dc-dc chargers are often used to limit alternator draw in the case of a large battery bank and a smaller alternator. LifePo batteries often have a 1C acceptance rate so a 400AH battery bank will draw 400 amps from the alternator, overloading and damaging it. A DC-DC charger will only allow a specified amperage draw, protecting the charging system. The same can be accomplished with an external regulator, but not all charging systems are compatible with them.

 

[mvweebles]

Based on my research and I’m no expert, Dc-dc chargers are often used to limit alternator draw in the case of a large battery bank and a smaller alternator. LifePo batteries often have a 1C acceptance rate so a 400AH battery bank will draw 400 amps from the alternator, overloading and damaging it. A DC-DC charger will only allow a specified amperage draw, protecting the charging system. The same can be accomplished with an external regulator, but not all charging systems are compatible with them.

For a large house LiFePO4 bank, would charge it direct, not through a DC-DC charger. For me, I have 175 Amp Balmar feeding a 700ah (12v) LiFePO4 house bank, and a 15a DC-DC charger topping up starter battery, and thruster battery.

Peter

 

[Simi 60]

No, sir, numbers do not lie. I have laid out a comparison for you several times.

The numbers lie when you are using flawed methodology

840ah at 12v is not the same as 840ah at 24v

And 840ah of LA does not have the same amount of "actual" usable power as 840ah of LFP

As for your Alibaba crap slur, you really show how lacking in knowledge you are with that.

I have not bought Alibaba batteries
I have bought A Grade, matched batched and tested batteries from a company that has been around longer than battleborn yet you still insist they must be rubbish simply because of the platform I bought them on.

I could have bought Winstons on there as well, would you still insist they are crap?
I buy genuine Cummins parts on Alibaba, I guees they are crap as well?

Yes, there is crap on there, like there is in every marketplace on earth including America.
Do some research - , who knows, you might learn sonething

 

[twistedtree]

Based on my research and I’m no expert, Dc-dc chargers are often used to limit alternator draw in the case of a large battery bank and a smaller alternator. LifePo batteries often have a 1C acceptance rate so a 400AH battery bank will draw 400 amps from the alternator, overloading and damaging it. A DC-DC charger will only allow a specified amperage draw, protecting the charging system. The same can be accomplished with an external regulator, but not all charging systems are compatible with them.

LFP batteries have very little limit in how much charge current they can accept, but that’s true of lead batteries too. Manufacturer’s charge limits are a cause of BMS limitations and/or to get the warranty number of cycles out of the battery.

Also, an alternator will never output more than it’s rated current. So a 100A alternator will put out a max 100A. The problem is that few, if any alternators are designed to output rated current for anything more than a short period of time. Alternator designs assume they are charging lead batteries, and batteries that are not deeply discharged like a starter battery. In such an application they will put out rated current initially, but the battery voltage will quickly rise and the alternator output will regulate accordingly. With LFP, the voltage doesn’t rise until near full charge, so the battery will accept full alternator out for much longer than alternator designers ever imagined, and they can’t handle it.

I have never seen an alternator with a rated duty cycle I.e. how long it can be run at full output. I have also never seen one with a specified max rectifier temp, which is one of the parts subject to overheating. And I have never seen one rated with a max stator temp which is the part that heats up the most, and if too hot will result in melted insulation and shorts.

In short, alternators are under built and under specified, and the industry has been getting away with it by virtue of the historic application. Now they have been exposed.

 

[Simi 60]

I have never seen an alternator with a rated duty cycle I.e. how long it can be run at full output. .

But I have seen them using "continuous"

Maximum Speed
10,000 RPM Continuous
12,000 RPM Intermittent

https://www.delcoremy.com/alternators/find-by-model-family


I fell for it
I thought continuous should at least be able to run for a few days before crapping out

 

[Mako]

If I wanted 300 ah usable, I could stick with 6x6v (400 lbs) for around $700 and maybe get 4-years. Or I could get four 100ah cheap LiFePO4s for under $1400 and they'd last 10-years, charge faster, have less lag, take less space, and only weigh 125 lbs.

Certainly everyone's situation is different and perhaps one person's needs are only for 3-5 years, and money may be very tight. Your number of $700 for batteries sourced here in America is pretty good, and I assume that must be Costco pricing. My best price over in Asia for Chinese 8D's worked out to about $500 for 300A (12V) usable, at a weight of over 500 lbs.

 

[twistedtree]

But I have seen them using "continuous"







https://www.delcoremy.com/alternators/find-by-model-family





I fell for it

I thought continuous should at least be able to run for a few days before crapping out

Right, trick answer. That’s the rpm rating, not the output rating. They also generally show that max output possible across the rpm range, but don’t say for how long

 

[Delfin]

No, sir, numbers do not lie. I have laid out a comparison for you several times.

You spend a lot of time at the dock plugged into shore power, I'm guessing....