Should we opt for Lithium Iron batteries (LiFePo) over Lead Acid kind?

[catalinajack]

A cost analysis isn’t the reason to get LFP. Enjoying and benefiting from the superior performance is the reason to buy, and you just need to decide it the cost is worth it to you.

It’s not much different from installing an inverter. It brings comfort and convenience to cruising, and you need to decide if that’s worth it to.

Comparing cost over time to LA is definitely a factor, but to me it’s completely missing the point if that’s all you consider.

TT, I pretty much said that. And I don't see superior performance. I get everything I need, every time, from my 100-year-old- technology FLA batteries. Electrons are electrons. Cost is always a consideration for you, me, and everyone else in every bost decision that has ever been made. Worth is relative to one's bank account and is particular to each individual.

Here's an example: why would anyone, well perhaps there are a few, spend a fortune on a lithium battery refit when they plan to be out of boating in a relatively short period of time? Answer? If one has more money than they don't know what to do with, then, yes, spend, spend, spend. I am not that fortunate as are not many other folks here.

And not much different than installing an inverter? Really? We were talking about batteries, two kinds, both of which supply electrons.

 

[BandB]

New boat, my answer is YES. We did last year and very happy. However, system was designed for the specific boat. I would not do drop in replacements for existing boats.

 

[Simi 60]

I believe that is called "anecdotal evidence".

In the same way that I saw a petrol car catch on fire so diesel is dangerous.
They are both fuels

 

[Simi 60]

Yes, the benefits you mention are what I acknowleged to be among the non-monetary benefits. To those of us, who I believe are a significant majority, who have no need of those benefits, lithium is simply not cost effective. Retrofitting is expensive because we know it is much more than simply replacing the batteries. And the cost-benefit equation is greatly extended if one is unable or unwilling to do the work himself. My FLA batteries? Maintenance? Yup,15 minutes 3 - 5 times per year. Space in the engine room? I have room to spare even with generators there. Plus, even if I wanted to I have space outside of the ER to which to locate batteries. And then there is the challenge of minimizing wire runs. This stuff is not easy guys. Lithium is no panacea although for a small number of boars with unusual use cases, lithium does indeed make sense.

It's as easy or as difficult as you want or believe it to be.

Reality, from somone who's done it was.......pretty easy if you did the research and followed the well trodden path.

And for the cost saving and benifits side of things a no brainer
But, that was my experience.

 

[twistedtree]

It's as easy or as difficult as you want or believe it to be.

Reality, from somone who's done it was.......pretty easy if you did the research and followed the well trodden path.

And for the cost saving and benifits side of things a no brainer
But, that was my experience.

And took the more difficult "buy and assemble all the pieces yourself" approach.

 

[Delfin]

If Lithium is not a "Start Battery" and requires a special charger, does that mean I will need 2 chargers, 1 for Lithium and one for Lead Acid? Also the special alternator requirement is a bit confusing. Will a Lithium alternator also charge the Lead Acid Start Battery? Will a Blue Seas ACR hook up to the Lithium BMS and the Start Battery and manage the charging?

• There is no particular reason why LiFePO4 batteries cannot be used as a starter battery. What does the starter care where the required amps and voltage comes from?
• They do not require a special charger, but just like any marine house bank, should have three stage, programmable regulation on charging sources.
• They do not require a special alternator.
• An ACR isn't a great idea given the different chemistries involved.
• And while we're at it, they pose no more fire risk than lead acid, and with a little DIY capability, cost less that AGMs. Even if you buy a finished product with a BMS, if you plan on a lot of charging cycles they are cheaper than AGMs on a per charge basis.

Not sure where all the misinformation about this chemistry comes from, but it is pervasive. If you're a dock queen, you don't need LFP. If you only day trip, you don't need LFP. If you cruise, and would like to have the absolute minimum recharging time, or care about weight, or like having steady voltage throughout the discharge cycle, then LFP makes a lot of sense. Has for me for the last five years.

 

[pjtemplin]

This past winter there was a car fire (EV) not too far from where I live and the fire department ran out of water trying to put it out and were ultimately unable to and just let it burn. I think it was either 20,000 or 30,000 gallons they used before they ran out.

Be afraid of your fire department, not those batteries. Years ago, back when I was a volunteer firefighter, we managed to put 26,000 gallons of water on a house fire using a hydrant 4 miles away...after a day of snow on the roads followed by freezing rain that left a gnarly 1/2" crust on top of the snow. I've seen departments go through the motions of an actual live insurance verification that they can deliver 2,000 gpm for eight hours in case they had to put out a barn fire: they'd get that 30,000 gallons of water to the fire in 15 minutes. I've seen a dirt-poor fire department get creative and strike a deal with the local concrete company: hand them a radio, a section of hose, and a hydrant wrench, and all of a sudden eight cement mixers become tankers. Someone was feeling a bit lazy that day, or uninspired prior to that fire to come up with good ideas on how to move water.

 

[Jack2427]

I have been a "lurker" on the forum for a couple decades now, but having retired and having just bought my retirement boat, I feel I can contribute some information on these batteries: I used to be US Merchant marine Officer with service on oceans, Great Lakes and tributaries. Our company banned these batteries from use even in hand held VHF radios after one such burst into flames at a most inconvenient moment on the bridge of a large Towboat. Fortunately there was an extra man in the wheel house and was wearing heavy work gloves and grabbed it out of its charger and dumped it overboard. The heat from this small battery burned through his heavy work gloves in seconds and he sustained minor first degree burns in just a few seconds. We then switched to hand held units with replaceable AA battery packs-something I had done a long time ago on my own boat. I agree progress has been made, but the concept of such a fire in the engine room of my boat gives me the shivers-and not the good kind.

 

[Comodave]

I have been a "lurker" on the forum for a couple decades now, but having retired and having just bought my retirement boat, I feel I can contribute some information on these batteries: I used to be US Merchant marine Officer with service on oceans, Great Lakes and tributaries. Our company banned these batteries from use even in hand held VHF radios after one such burst into flames at a most inconvenient moment on the bridge of a large Towboat. Fortunately there was an extra man in the wheel house and was wearing heavy work gloves and grabbed it out of its charger and dumped it overboard. The heat from this small battery burned through his heavy work gloves in seconds and he sustained minor first degree burns in just a few seconds. We then switched to hand held units with replaceable AA battery packs-something I had done a long time ago on my own boat. I agree progress has been made, but the concept of such a fire in the engine room of my boat gives me the shivers-and not the good kind.

Which exactly type of batteries were those? They were probably Lithium Ion not LiFePO4. People keep bringing up horror stores but the stories are about Lithium Ion which aren’t used as battery banks in boats.

 

[Simi 60]

I have been a "lurker" on the forum for a couple decades now, but having retired and having just bought my retirement boat, I feel I can contribute some information on these batteries: I used to be US Merchant marine Officer with service on oceans, Great Lakes and tributaries. Our company banned these batteries from use even in hand held VHF radios after one such burst into flames at a most inconvenient moment on the bridge of a large Towboat. Fortunately there was an extra man in the wheel house and was wearing heavy work gloves and grabbed it out of its charger and dumped it overboard. The heat from this small battery burned through his heavy work gloves in seconds and he sustained minor first degree burns in just a few seconds. We then switched to hand held units with replaceable AA battery packs-something I had done a long time ago on my own boat. I agree progress has been made, but the concept of such a fire in the engine room of my boat gives me the shivers-and not the good kind.

Yeah but you still don't get it

The battery in the VHF (and mobile phone, tablet, camera, battery drill etc etc ) is a lith ion
The battery in the ER is a lifepo4

Read up and understand the difference

 

[friz]

• There is no particular reason why LiFePO4 batteries cannot be used as a starter battery. What does the starter care where the required amps and voltage comes from?
• They do not require a special charger, but just like any marine house bank, should have three stage, programmable regulation on charging sources.
• They do not require a special alternator.
• An ACR isn't a great idea given the different chemistries involved.
• And while we're at it, they pose no more fire risk than lead acid, and with a little DIY capability, cost less that AGMs. Even if you buy a finished product with a BMS, if you plan on a lot of charging cycles they are cheaper than AGMs on a per charge basis.

Not sure where all the misinformation about this chemistry comes from, but it is pervasive. If you're a dock queen, you don't need LFP. If you only day trip, you don't need LFP. If you cruise, and would like to have the absolute minimum recharging time, or care about weight, or like having steady voltage throughout the discharge cycle, then LFP makes a lot of sense. Has for me for the last five years.

Thanks. Your answer certainly would make house bank (and now starter) conversion easier. I found some of your statements in contradiction to mvweebles' response. This calls for research on my own. Thanks again.

 

[mvweebles]

• There is no particular reason why LiFePO4 batteries cannot be used as a starter battery. What does the starter care where the required amps and voltage comes from?
• They do not require a special charger, but just like any marine house bank, should have three stage, programmable regulation on charging sources.
• They do not require a special alternator.
• An ACR isn't a great idea given the different chemistries involved.
• And while we're at it, they pose no more fire risk than lead acid, and with a little DIY capability, cost less that AGMs. Even if you buy a finished product with a BMS, if you plan on a lot of charging cycles they are cheaper than AGMs on a per charge basis.

Not sure where all the misinformation about this chemistry comes from, but it is pervasive. If you're a dock queen, you don't need LFP. If you only day trip, you don't need LFP. If you cruise, and would like to have the absolute minimum recharging time, or care about weight, or like having steady voltage throughout the discharge cycle, then LFP makes a lot of sense. Has for me for the last five years.

Delfin - a couple clarifications.

There is a very good practical reason LiFePO4 batteries may not make a good starter battery: the BMS limits discharge current, usually close to the AH rating of the battery. So a 100AH battery such as the typical BattleBorn can only discharge up to 100A of current. This roughly compares to the CCA (cold cranking amps) of a starter battery which is normally 800A or more. You can parallel multiple LiFePO4 to multiply the available amperage, but that's sort of an expensive workaround. So while electrons are electrons, they are being throttled differently.

LiFePO4 have a much, much different charge profile than a traditional 3-stage charger/regulator. Both Renogy and Victron have LiFePO4 charge settings that are essentially a single stage blast with the BMS modulating a maintenance charge. Because the parasitic discharge on LiFePO4 is near zero vs 2%-3% per month for LA batteries, it really does require a specific charge profile.

Bottom line is the "special charger" and "special alternator" terms are only a slight misnomer. The charge profile is controlled by alternator capacity and the regulated flow. That regulated flow is significantly different for FLA vs LiFePO4. Installing LiFePO4 but not adapting the rest of the system is wasting the potential of LiFePO4.

Peter

 

[Jack2427]

Silly me; I thought the thread was about LIP batteries vs Lifepro, so I commented on LIP batteries. To my knowledge Lifepro does not make small batteries for hand held radios, of course I might be wrong-but I did comment about LIP batteries, and they do have a rather poor record regarding fires.

 

[twistedtree]

I have been a "lurker" on the forum for a couple decades now, but having retired and having just bought my retirement boat, I feel I can contribute some information on these batteries: I used to be US Merchant marine Officer with service on oceans, Great Lakes and tributaries. Our company banned these batteries from use even in hand held VHF radios after one such burst into flames at a most inconvenient moment on the bridge of a large Towboat. Fortunately there was an extra man in the wheel house and was wearing heavy work gloves and grabbed it out of its charger and dumped it overboard. The heat from this small battery burned through his heavy work gloves in seconds and he sustained minor first degree burns in just a few seconds. We then switched to hand held units with replaceable AA battery packs-something I had done a long time ago on my own boat. I agree progress has been made, but the concept of such a fire in the engine room of my boat gives me the shivers-and not the good kind.

And that’s why LFP is, in my opinion, the only lithium ion battery variant that is acceptable for a house or propulsion bank in a boat.

 

[twistedtree]

I know I’m being a broken record, but will make the speech again since I keep hearing people say that LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries are not Lithium ion batteries. They ARE lithium ion batteries. They are just a particular type of lithium ion battery that is much safer than other types.

 

[BandB]

Our company banned these batteries from use even in hand held VHF radios after one such burst into flames at a most inconvenient moment on the bridge of a large Towboat.

And so you post to add to the misinformation. You may have banned Lithium Ion but even that was an earlier generation. You didn't ban anything like what we're discussing. These aren't even similar.

 

[slowgoesit]

Silly me; I thought the thread was about LIP batteries vs Lifepro, so I commented on LIP batteries. To my knowledge Lifepro does not make small batteries for hand held radios, of course I might be wrong-but I did comment about LIP batteries, and they do have a rather poor record regarding fires.

Jack, you may want to go back and re-read the original post. "Lifepro" isn't even mentioned . . . post provided below for your reading enjoyment.

Original Post: What are the advantages and disadvantages of using lithium iron phosphate batteries in our boat (new build of KK 60’ Open design) instead of usual LA batteries? I am sure price is more but how much more? Is volume size or power required factors in making that decision?

 

[Jack2427]

The subject line said" Should we opt for Lithium Iron Batteries (LifePro) over lead acid kind'?.
If Lifepro are not lithium iron batteries as some of the responses seem to imply, then I am simply ignorant of the actual chemical composition of Lifepro batteries. I assumed the original poster knew the difference-if any.
I respect the views of everyone, I simply related a personal experience with lithium iron batteries, which are restricted from some forms of interstate transportation because of a tendency, albeit possibly from earlier generations of LIP batteries, to burst into a very hot flame. I gather that Lifepro are a different chemical composition than LIP batteries, or some posters seem to imply that. If so, excellent, if you are happy so am I. However the other comments on Lifepro batteries seem to imply that they are directed to a specific market for a specific purpose. It all sounds good to me, however I am sticking with AGM as at my age and for my purposes AGM seems to make the most sense. BTW, the incident I mentioned happened in 2020 and was with the current technology LIP batteries.
I will study up on the Lifepro as apparently they are a totally different animal than LIP batteries. Don't know what Elon Musk uses in his products, but I am not into that market either.
A market that does interest me is the possibility of a real diesel/electric engine for trawlers, such as that used in locomotives and some large tugs and icebreakers. Minimal use of any batteries as the generator is almost always working(remember when locomotives were never shut down?), however the green movement arrested that procedure for trains and tugs, and trucks-also fuel costs did not help.
Don't take life so seriously, it is not permanent.

 

[dannc]

The subject line said" Should we opt for Lithium Iron Batteries (LifePro) over lead acid kind'?...

Jack,

Try not to take the reactions to your past to heart. Though some replies where a bit harsh. Lumping LiFePo batteries in the same boat, pun intended, is kinda a hot button issue. While LiFePo batteries are lithium, LiFePo is different in that it does not have the same fire issues as other lithium based chemistries.

Your point about lithium batteries in small devices should be heeded. The dive boat fire that killed so many people was likely started from charging lithium batteries. We were looking to rent an AirBnB a few years ago, and the owner stated that cell phones, tablets and laptops could not be plugged in while no one was home. Why? His son's laptop battery had caught fire and almost burned down his house.

But it is not just lithium chemistries that have this issue. Years ago, I had a Dewalt cordless drill that used NiMH batteries. I took the battery out of the charger, put it in the drill, drilled some holes, and put the battery back in the charger. A short time later I started smelling something odd and found out the battery was smoking like a fire using wet wood. I unplugged the charger, grabbed my welding gloves I use with the wood stove, and tossed the battery and battery charger out of the house onto a gravel driveway. If the battery had caught fire, it would have likely burned down the house.

For YEARS, I did not, and wold not have, a battery power tool. Late last year, I had to break down and buy a new cordless drill but I will only charge it while it is outside on the porch or on the wood stove hearth. Neither locations will burn down the house if the battery shorts out.

Later,
Dan

 

[Bmarler]

has the OP been back to this thread since he started it? was it just to spark up some conversation?
if i was doing a new build it would be a no brainer. that's the perfect time to build your system around the newer technology. the upgrade cost is a very small portion of the total cost of the build, probably not noticeable at all.

 

[cafesport]

I’m a fan but the insurance company’s have yet to embrace them. On new builds I think insurance may be the biggest obstacle.

 

[sunchaser]

I’m a fan but the insurance company’s have yet to embrace them. On new builds I think insurance may be the biggest obstacle.

My insurer, Travelers, has no issue with LFPs. But, our agent is a boating pro and understands Li battery technology for marine use. On a new build design and install LFP system with a Pro's assistance and follow ABYC "soon" to be released guidelines and

 

[BandB]

I’m a fan but the insurance company’s have yet to embrace them. On new builds I think insurance may be the biggest obstacle.

Was no issue for us.

 

[catalinajack]

It's as easy or as difficult as you want or believe it to be.

Reality, from somone who's done it was.......pretty easy if you did the research and followed the well trodden path.

And for the cost saving and benifits side of things a no brainer
But, that was my experience.

And your experience is quite unique and not very much analogous to others.

 

[catalinajack]

• There is no particular reason why LiFePO4 batteries cannot be used as a starter battery. What does the starter care where the required amps and voltage comes from?
• They do not require a special charger, but just like any marine house bank, should have three stage, programmable regulation on charging sources.
• They do not require a special alternator.
• An ACR isn't a great idea given the different chemistries involved.
• And while we're at it, they pose no more fire risk than lead acid, and with a little DIY capability, cost less that AGMs. Even if you buy a finished product with a BMS, if you plan on a lot of charging cycles they are cheaper than AGMs on a per charge basis.

Not sure where all the misinformation about this chemistry comes from, but it is pervasive. If you're a dock queen, you don't need LFP. If you only day trip, you don't need LFP. If you cruise, and would like to have the absolute minimum recharging time, or care about weight, or like having steady voltage throughout the discharge cycle, then LFP makes a lot of sense. Has for me for the last five years.

All correct including the cost comparison to AGM. Not so much when comparing to flooded batteries.

 

[hrk]

If you read it carefully, you might see that it did mention the right kind of battery.
I said Lithium Iron phosphate battery, which is a type of lithium ion battery that is safer.
See wikipedia article quoted below.
“ The lithium iron phosphate battery (LiFePO
4 battery) or LFP battery (lithium ferrophosphate) is a type of lithium-ion battery using lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO
4) as the cathode material, ”

I probably should have used acronym but that said, i would say that i was not misleading.

Hrk

 

[hrk]

has the OP been back to this thread since he started it? was it just to spark up some conversation?
if i was doing a new build it would be a no brainer. that's the perfect time to build your system around the newer technology. the upgrade cost is a very small portion of the total cost of the build, probably not noticeable at all.

I am very much around but there are days i dont read TF?

Appreciate all who commented on the thread. Please be sure that when I ask a question, it is for a matter that i am about to make decision. While reading TF replies I also tend to do independent research. Experience of many of you broadens my perspective and helps the research process. There are never 100% right decisions. It is all tradeoffs when engineering is involved (and, I am an engineer).

We are buiding a new boat, 60’. Going to live aboard. Not going be moving marina to marinaand given the size more likely to anchored than be on a slip.
So faster charging time is important. With a new build of this size boat, price of battery system is a marginal increase. But, safety matters.
PM with a member who is very experienced indicated that most new build he is advising on is opting for this type of battery. So, our decision is to go with LiFePo batteries. The only thing we now worry about is getting it built correctly by the vendor, who in our case is KK.

Hrk

 

[hrk]

My insurer, Travelers, has no issue with LFPs. But, our agent is a boating pro and understands Li battery technology for marine use. On a new build design and install LFP system with a Pro's assistance and follow ABYC "soon" to be released guidelines and

This is an angle i had not thought of. Thanks for cthis info. Hae not yet reached a stage of selecting insurance agent yet but i have been in touch with one. Will check if that company has to say bout this battery type.

Hk

 

[Simi 60]

And your experience is quite unique and not very much analogous to others.

So you say but like I said....

..pretty easy if you did the research and followed the well trodden path.

If it's a well trodden path that would imply plenty have had a result before me, so not unique at all.

I know plenty of owners personally who have purchased and or built LFP and had a win, I honestly know of none that have had a fail.
All did research before jumping in

I am reminded of the words of Benjamin Franklin

“If you fail to plan, you are planning to fail!”

Works for me

 

[catalinajack]

So you say but like I said....



If it's a well trodden path that would imply plenty have had a result before me, so not unique at all.



I know plenty of owners personally who have purchased and or built LFP and had a win, I honestly know of none that have had a fail.

All did research before jumping in



I am reminded of the words of Benjamin Franklin



Works for me

Unique in the sense that cost of equipment in Oz is so damned high. Cost-benefit decisions are much different in North America. That is what I meant by unique. So, Simi, you saying, categorically, that lithium is so much cheaper than lead-acid technology is, quite simply, pretty much irrelavant to most others here.