Selene Auction

[BandB]

What if the gelcoat problem is that not enough resin was used to cure the gelcoat? Then you would have a real problem of trying to remove uncured gelcoat off a boat before you can even prep it properly. Or worse, what if there are uncured spots of fiberglass? Something catastrophic could be going on with this hull that we are unaware of. Dont ask me how i know this can happen.

That's all why I used the number, $200,000.

 

[leeman]

My question would be: why did the builder continue to build this boat after seeing the hull? What were they thinking?

 

[bligh]

What if the gelcoat problem is that not enough resin was used to cure the gelcoat? Then you would have a real problem of trying to remove uncured gelcoat off a boat before you can even prep it properly. Or worse, what if there are uncured spots of fiberglass? Something catastrophic could be going on with this hull that we are unaware of. Dont ask me how i know this can happen.

Sorry. I meant catalyst, not resin.

 

[BandB]

My question would be: why did the builder continue to build this boat after seeing the hull? What were they thinking?

Theory, total speculation.

When built the only visible issue was the bleed through. Then the builder proceeded to try to fix that problem and quite a few problems developed, making the boat worth even less. Could they have then done more? Yes, but never made it acceptable to the buyer and incurred far more cost.

 

[OPUS]

Selene Update

The yard manager returned my email inquiry with a call to my cell. The boat has been in their yard for about 6 months. Originally in the water by the owner but now as reported on the hard. The yard was involved in hull core testing which did not support owner claimed defects. No hull structural damage identified during their testing. The yard has seen similar print through issues in green Selene hulls. Cost to repair assuming estimated to be $80k -$100k. A white repaint was strongly recommended. Yard believes this is a great boat with all systems in working order and further believes owner hull damage claims were not supported by their inspection.

My take always from a 15 minute conversation

As many TF members speculated the boat had been run by the owner (accounts for hours) before the settlement and is now owned by the insurance company and offered for sale by the salvage company.

Will be calling the the salvage company tomorrow to better understand the bidding process and the closing terms. I’m planning on financing approximately 30% of my potential bid and am worried about the closing timetable. As others have noted a survey and insurance are needed for a marine loan. Not doable if payment terms are 3 days

While this sale does not seem to be widely advertised I’m guessing that lots of professional marine brokers are plugged into this market and will be bidding with deeper pockets.

 

[OPUS]

I'm headed up to Anacortes Thursday night. My boat is stored right next door to Pacific Marine Center so I will see if I can poke my head in and take a look at it.
I will relay what I see if I can get into the yard. Things are pretty open up there so it's quite likely I can see it up close.

Iwarden. Would be interested in your visual inspection and perhaps some hull pics. Relatively new to the forum and how to do off line conversations. Can we find a way to connect?

 

[sunchaser]

Opus
Post #45 indicates something more than print through. If you're not available to look at vessel quickly there are several good surveyors or yard pros in area that could put some eyes on. BB's suggestion of Delta is a good one. They could even provide a path forward and insurability advice if a fix up is warranted. Delta is the real deal.

BTW white paint over a dark green hull creates another potential issue of two. Tread lightly.

 

[lwarden]

Sent you a personal message Opus. Check your inbox.

 

[FF]

"My question would be: why did the builder continue to build this boat after seeing the hull? What were they thinking?"

The print thru probably did not exist then.

All GRP boats harden with age , and also get thinner as the GRP shrinks.

Print thru is a cosmetic hassle that was probably accelerated with dark paint , as it will heat the area.

On a modern boat the attempt to stop print thru is done as a procedure in the mold at layup. Assuming a hand layup.

The gelcoat is sprayed on then surfacing tissue is placed into the gelcoat .

This adds a bit of strength to the gel, it is then usually followed with 1 or 1 1/2 oz mat Instead some will use fine cloth on the surfacing tissue .

Next structural roving is laid in and the hull is created.The early l print thru hassles came from using roving with out the surfacing tissue .

I would pull a test piece to make sure its nothing but print thru, not a bad batch of resin , and simply paint the boat.

 

[Island15]

I am not an expert but if what you guys are referring to as print through is seeing the fiber or checkered look of the fiberglass through the gel coat because it was too thin this is NOT that!
This was randomly dispersed most every 4 to 8 inches maybe 8 to 12 inches long. Could almost be describe as very small ripples on a calm lake!
Again I only noticed it on the green hull.

 

[bayview]

What you describe in not typical print through.

 

[Codger2]

Several years ago a very good friend of mine decided to pursue an auction where a 72' Offshore sedan was for sale. The minimum bid was ridiculously low like this Selene auction boat. Both he and his wife toured the boat and decided to make a run at it. Auction day came and they were in attendance with their check book. The opening bid was so far above the advertised low that they folded their tent and left. The boat was sold that day at a little lower than market price. After reading all this fuss about "print through," my money is on a similar ending that resembles my friend's experience.

 

[Recb]

Ok!
I when by and had a look. On both the port and starboard side from the lower rub rail to the upper rub rail where the green is (this may be hard to explain sorry) .
If you took a big piece of aluminum foil and wrinkled it up about every 6 to 8 inches and then tried to flatten it by pushing down on a flat surface, that is what it looks like
Most of the way from bow to stern.
I don't think this is an easy fix! But I'm a carpenter!

Mr. Island, are the imperfections detectable by touch or just through reflected light?

 

[hollywood8118]

I remember hearing from a couple Nordhavn owners ( they are typically critical of Selene's) about five years ago of fiberglass print through issues. I doubt this boat will be a great deal in the end and i doubt it is really a structural issue. The thing to remember is that owners of this price point of boat expect perfection.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[nwboater]

Keep us posted if you do.

The Selene 47 is on my short list of boats I am interested in, BTW...

Have you seen my Selene 47 - for sale?
www.mvkika.weebly.com

 

[slowgoesit]

I remember hearing from a couple Nordhavn owners ( they are typically critical of Selene's) about five years ago of fiberglass print through issues. I doubt this boat will be a great deal in the end and i doubt it is really a structural issue. The thing to remember is that owners of this price point of boat expect perfection.
HOLLYWOOD

I would too if I were purchasing a $1.8 mil boat . . .

 

[lwarden]

Ok, Got a chance to look at it today and it doesn’t look like print through it looks like more of a lamination issue, perhaps something to do with rolling out the laminate, if I had to guess.
The lines are mostly vertical and are random. Perhaps lines from roller edges leaving resin rich or resin poor areas?

Anyway, I’m not surprised the owner pressed this to the point where they got refunded.
I would imagine it would need to have the hull planed down to the laminate, a layer of glass and epoxy added, re-faired, prime and paint would be what is required. If I bought it and had the time and a couple hands I wouldn’t be afraid of the job, but the estimates of $100-200k are probably not far off.

There is evidence of several core samples taken, poorly patched.

 

[KnotYet]

Have you seen my Selene 47 - for sale?
www.mvkika.weebly.com

Edit: Yes, my only reservation with your boat is that it is about $100k over my limit.

 

[BandB]

I think buyer took a stance I would have taken. If I'm buying a new boat, I want it new. I don't want one that has had lots of hull work and repairs done to it. Painting, I'd accept. Stripping and refinishing and beyond, I wouldn't accept as new. Value would be permanently lowered.

 

[MJ Weenz]

This is not print through, it’s an example of faulty construction.

First, look at the construction from YachtWorld- “ Below the waterline, Selenes are solid fiberglass. Above the waterline and throughout the deck, the construction is vacuum-bagged balsa or Divinycell coring. ”

Cored and vacuumed bagged in the area that has “issues”. This is not cosmetic, it’s a failure of proper resin infusion (or resin/catalyst mix) with proper wetout while under vacuum. The distortion became apparent after delivery after experiencing the stresses the sea applies. Painting couldn’t hide it.

I doubt the hull can ever be fixed to design structural specifications or strength. The only way would be to strip off the outer skin to the core and relaminate. A major project.

Might make sense for a yard to bid, but even with detailed, documented repairs this boat will always be under a scarlet cross.

Mike

 

[gsholz]

There is a reason why the insurance company sells it as "salvage". It is unlikely just a $200k problem. The insurance company would have paid that in a heart beat vs. paying out full hull value.

 

[BandB]

There is a reason why the insurance company sells it as "salvage". It is unlikely just a $200k problem. The insurance company would have paid that in a heart beat vs. paying out full hull value.

Insurance company didn't have that choice. They could not restore it's value as a new boat, no matter what they spent. A repair wouldn't do that.

 

[BigTime]

Your ability to close a successful bid because of financing may involve more than just a timing issue. Certain lenders may have a problem securing a loan with a “salvage” vessel. If it where an automobile it would carry a “salvage title “ in most states and a traditional lender would not touch it.

 

[Mr. Blu]

My experience with an auction is that my President 385 Sundeck was rather quick sold for a good market value. The starting bid does not tell a lot. I started at a very low price. And ended with a satisfying selling price. A quick sale after two years trying to sell it with a broker. The broker was not to keen about using the auction. It was an internet auction with two dates to look at the boat. Most bidders even didnot bother to come to look!

 

[sunchaser]

I'm curious, is the insurance company mentioned the buyer's or Selene's?

 

[foreverunderway]

Some time ago I read this was often an issue when one paints a white boat a dark color. I'm sorry I don't remember the reason, but it may get you headed in the right direction before you make a decision. To the best of my memory, it does not compromise the integrity of the vessel, only the esthetics.

 

[Frosty]

Some time ago I read this was often an issue when one paints a white boat a dark color. I'm sorry I don't remember the reason, but it may get you headed in the right direction

That's your typical print-through. Basically, the resins used to build the boat are still "alive," in a way. If they get hot enough, they will continue to cure and shrink a little bit. So you have a dark hull, it gets hot in the sun, and you get some print-through. In other words, I think a dark hull that never saw the light of day (heat) wouldn't be any different than a light one. That type of print through often reflects the pattern of the underlying glass layer (e.g. it could be a sort of burlappy pattern).

However, from the photos and reports of people who have seen the boat, this is not typical print-through. So maybe it is, or maybe it is not "just" cosmetic. It is possible it is more than that since we now aren't sure what's going on.

(I put "just" in quotes because if you are buying a new boat, it's not "just." That'd be like buying a brand new car, the service manager keys all down one side before you come pick it up, but then since the car still runs just fine and it's only cosmetic, you should just happily buy it and go home. I sure wouldn't!)

 

[Newtrawlerowner]

The first and most important step to our next boat has been accomplished. Much to our surprise we sold our Tiara 44 Sovran a few weeks ago and are now beginning to move forward with the first steps of finalizing our retirement and the purchase of a live aboard trawler. We had not intended to seriously begin our search until after the first of the year due to Covid-19. A friend sent me this post for a Selene listed through a salvage company. This is definitely a boat on our list. According to the listing the boat was purchased new but was not ultimately accepted by the new owner due to the following:

The boat was purchased new and after taking delivery the owner noticed seeing "print through" the paint. Print through is when you can detect the fiberglass mat with your eye when looking at the boats hull. This boat was painted jade green and the mat can be seen through the outer layer of glass. The boat operates just fine and all systems seem to operate

Posting from salvage company. https://www.cooperss.com/asset-list.php?name=marine&id=2

I’m trying to understand what repairing the hull print through issues might entail and why a cosmetic issue was not resolved by Selene under warranty. Could this be an unrepairable hull molding issue? Any insight would be greatly appreciated

I'd also inquire as to whether you are buying a "salvaged" boat. Yes the price is a bargain, but can you buy insurance and will it affect resale later? I know with automobile salvage titles, insurance companies will limit their exposure. Some wont even insure.
These are additional questions I'd be asking.

As far as the hours, the buyer takes delivery, uses the boat rather than lets it sit at the dock and then sees the "print through", maybe at haul-out for a repair, upgrade or maintenance. I can see the hours on engine and generator as legitimate.
I might be inclined to do a little research and see if you can find the original buyer. If the boat was documented, you might find the original owner by doing a search.

If you found it, so did others. Good luck on buying. It is beautiful.

 

[OPUS]

So I was away for the weekend looking at other boats and enjoying our first days out after hunkering down at home since early March.

I have learned the following since my last post:
1. The salvage company does not own the boat - they are handling the auction on behalf of the insurance company
2. A 10% premium is payable to the salvage company based on the excepted winning bid
3. My marine broker is willing to accept a survey done on the hard as the boat may not be sea trialed in advance of the auction
4. The salvage company is willing to provide a reasonable amount of time to close with a 10% non refundable deposit
5. I looked at green hulled Selene over the weekend that had supposedly been repainted. The matt through was clearly visible but I’m not convinced that the prep work before painting was done correctly based on the overall condition of the boat

Still considering a low bid allowing for a $100k repaint, the 10% purchase fee to the salvage company and the cost of moving the boat to the east coast. Moving the boat is the most daunting given the auction timetable and our business related challenges as we are 18 months from full retirement.

Need to start investigating shipping costs from Washington State to at least the Florida East coast as well as identifying a good surveyor in the area.

Any TF forum member help On these 2 issues is appreciated

 

[BDofMSP]

If the boat was documented, you might find the original owner by doing a search.

Personal information is no longer made available by the USCG for documented vessels.