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Old 03-03-2018, 01:04 AM   #21
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While not relevant to this discussion, I can attest to seeing the same signature on drawings for the USS New Jersey, BB-62 from 1950 to 1985.

Pretty amazing these days, someone working for the same employer, the Naval Shipyard, for over 35 years.

Yes it was clear the signature was the same, while the fluidity was not surprising, comprised.

So, I suppose, the efforts to maintain drawings is limited to those with nearly unlimited budgets, its a worth while exercise.
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Old 03-03-2018, 03:03 AM   #22
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While not relevant to this discussion, I can attest to seeing the same signature on drawings for the USS New Jersey, BB-62 from 1950 to 1985.

Pretty amazing these days, someone working for the same employer, the Naval Shipyard, for over 35 years.

Yes it was clear the signature was the same, while the fluidity was not surprising, comprised.

So, I suppose, the efforts to maintain drawings is limited to those with nearly unlimited budgets, its a worth while exercise.
If you start with good drawings, it's not nearly as difficult to maintain as some would think. After the initial build, you only really make a change here and there and typically one at a time. If you build the discipline then you pull out the drawings and decide from them what to do. You draw the change out and then you go do it. The drawing is always before, not after. For architects and engineers it's the natural and normal way to work. My background is manufacturing and it's the norm in a good manufacturing operation so I guess I don't realize that it's not the norm everywhere.

Now, it's much easier than it was 30 or 40 years ago as CAD/CAM software is readily available at a reasonable cost.
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Old 03-03-2018, 11:48 AM   #23
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SeaKeeper Recommends the SeaKeeper 2

An internal SeaKeeper evaluation has determined (see attachment) that due to the inherent stability already built into the SeaPiper 35, the SeaKeeper 2 is the most appropriate sized gyro stabilization system for a SeaPiper 35 installation. The MSRP for this model is $22.7K, $5K less than the SeaKeeper 3. Other benefits include a 12 minute reduction in spool-up time to stabilization, 25% less weight and an overall reduction in electrical power requirements throughout the operating range.

https://www.seakeeper.com/seakeeper_...s/seakeeper-2/

SeaPiper has said that the installation costs would be minimal if done during the construction process.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf PP SeaPiper 35 1xSK2 Recommended (3.2.18).pdf (170.3 KB, 76 views)
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Old 03-03-2018, 04:55 PM   #24
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Completely agree. The advent of computers, CAD etc has greatly improved the ability to both maintain and update drawings. In those days it was all by hand of course. We, as kids, were amazed, that the old guy sitting in the records storage vault had been doing it for as long as he had.

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If you start with good drawings, it's not nearly as difficult to maintain as some would think. After the initial build, you only really make a change here and there and typically one at a time. If you build the discipline then you pull out the drawings and decide from them what to do. You draw the change out and then you go do it. The drawing is always before, not after. For architects and engineers it's the natural and normal way to work. My background is manufacturing and it's the norm in a good manufacturing operation so I guess I don't realize that it's not the norm everywhere.

Now, it's much easier than it was 30 or 40 years ago as CAD/CAM software is readily available at a reasonable cost.
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Old 03-03-2018, 05:26 PM   #25
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For those thinking she’ll be too rolly because of the 8’ beam look at how low and not massive the house is. Everything is relative and IMO a boat w this aspect ratio (long and narrow) will be more stable than a normal rather fat trawler w a high house and a wide beam. All other things being equal a longer boat (high aspect ratio) will be more stable.

I don’t see a stability problem at all.

But the aft house on a planing hull is unacceptable. And such an odd first boat configuration. If I was offering a new boat I’d start w a tried and proven boat. Many more potential customers. It’s kinda like offering a tripple screw boat.

Do I remember correctly ... it’s an IO boat?

But three 25hp inboard 3cyl diesels fwd w the house faised a bit and fwd would at least draw me.

I know it’s obvious the aft cabin is a cute boat draw. When one says “hey look at the new Sea Piper” everyone will relate to the it’s new element.

For those w real interest in the boat my opinion is that you won’t wait long for a traditional house/cabin configuration. If they survive the aft cabin roll-out and initial offering.

By the way I think it’s odd they call the SP a 35’ boat. She’s not even 34.
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Old 03-03-2018, 06:36 PM   #26
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"By the way I think it’s odd they call the SP a 35’ boat. She’s not even 34."

The SeaPiper website lists a 35' LOA. That probably includes the swim platform. The beam is 8 '6" and the hull might be considered by some as a semi-displacement hull because you can push it, like many trawlers, a bit beyond the waterline length speed. As far as I am concerned, it is a full displacement hull with 2600 pounds of ballast. Fully loaded it will weigh close to 20,000 lbs. With the standard 85 HP inboard Beta engine, sea trials have shown a seven knot cruise speed burning 1 GPH. With 270 gallons of onboard fuel, that will take you a long way. Setting aside a 10% reserve, that gives the boat an 1800 SM range. You could do the Great Loop on three fill-ups.

The below link explains the origin of the design concept for the boat. I applaud SeaPiper for thinking outside the box.

http://www.seapiper.com/about/
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Old 03-03-2018, 07:05 PM   #27
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If they did a "tried and true" design I don't think anyone would consider them. If I had a choice between 2 similar boats and one was from a company with a history and lots of boats built already....and a "new comer", to me, the established company would have a big advantage. By going to a new design, they will be the only option if this design apeals to you, so they will not have to go head to head with an established boat maker. If they end up with a super loyal customer base, like C-dory, or Ranger, a traditional boat might have some traction in the market...but that will be well down the road.
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Old 03-03-2018, 07:09 PM   #28
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"By the way I think its odd they call the SP a 35 boat. Shes not even 34."

The SeaPiper website lists a 35' LOA. That probably includes the swim platform. The beam is 8 '6" and the hull might be considered by some as a semi-displacement hull because you can push it, like many trawlers, a bit beyond the waterline length speed. As far as I am concerned, it is a full displacement hull with 2600 pounds of ballast. Fully loaded it will weigh close to 20,000 lbs. With the standard 85 HP inboard Beta engine, sea trials have shown a seven knot cruise speed burning 1 GPH. With a 270 gallon fuel tank, that will take you a long way on a tank of diesel. Setting aside a 10% reserve, that gives the boat an 1800 SM range. You could do the Great Loop on three fill-ups.

The below link explains the origin of the design concept for the boat. I applaud SeaPiper for thinking outside the box.

About - SeaPiper
I applaud thinking outside the box. I can't imagine anyone doing the Great Loop on it though. Regardless of it's measurement at 35', it's a very small 35'. In cabin space it feels more like 26'. Outdoor space is nice. It has some uses, but I don't see the Loop as being a very good one.
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Old 03-03-2018, 07:32 PM   #29
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I applaud thinking outside the box. I can't imagine anyone doing the Great Loop on it though. Regardless of it's measurement at 35', it's a very small 35'. In cabin space it feels more like 26'. Outdoor space is nice. It has some uses, but I don't see the Loop as being a very good one.
People do the Loop in all kinds of vessels. We met a couple from Canada last year doing it on a pontoon houseboat. We know and have met people doing the loop on 25' and 27' Ranger Tugs. One of the advantages of the SeaPiper from my perspective is locking. With the large center cockpit, catching a bollard on the big commercial locks found on the river systems would be a breeze. Having a SeaKeeper gyro installed would also make the transit across the Gulf of Mexico or a side trip to the Bahamas much more manageable and enjoyable for the crew. Like I said in my first post, the SeaKeeper 35 is not for everyone, but it is a very capable and sturdy little vessel that would give the owner lots of cruising options.
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Old 03-03-2018, 07:49 PM   #30
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...One of the advantages of the SeaPiper from my perspective is locking. With the large center cockpit, catching a bollard on the big commercial locks found on the river systems would be a breeze...
Or docking single handed anywhere, especially with the optional helm in the centre cockpit. It makes me drool thinking of how close I could bring that boat to wildlife & rocks while photographing, with more freedom than leaning out the pilothouse door like I have to do now.

As far as handling larger waves goes I think it would be about 1/2 way between a regular pilothouse flybridge trawler and a fully loaded expedition sea kayak, which is about as sea worthy as a swimming duck.
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Old 03-03-2018, 07:52 PM   #31
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People do the Loop in all kinds of vessels. We met a couple from Canada last year doing it on a pontoon houseboat. We know and have met people doing the loop on 25' and 27' Ranger Tugs. One of the advantages of the SeaPiper from my perspective is locking. With the large center cockpit, catching a bollard on the big commercial locks found on the river systems would be a breeze. Having a SeaKeeper gyro installed would also make the transit across the Gulf of Mexico or a side trip to the Bahamas much more manageable and enjoyable for the crew. Like I said in my first post, the SeaKeeper 35 is not for everyone, but it is a very capable and sturdy little vessel that would give the owner lots of cruising options.

I agree, I am also impressed so far with the Seapiper..If it wasnt for depreciation, for a starter boat the SP would make and excellent first boat choice.
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Old 03-03-2018, 07:55 PM   #32
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People do the Loop in all kinds of vessels. We met a couple from Canada last year doing it on a pontoon houseboat. We know and have met people doing the loop on 25' and 27' Ranger Tugs. One of the advantages of the SeaPiper from my perspective is locking. With the large center cockpit, catching a bollard on the big commercial locks found on the river systems would be a breeze. Having a SeaKeeper gyro installed would also make the transit across the Gulf of Mexico or a side trip to the Bahamas much more manageable and enjoyable for the crew. Like I said in my first post, the SeaKeeper 35 is not for everyone, but it is a very capable and sturdy little vessel that would give the owner lots of cruising options.
Maybe for a single person, but just the thought of two people sleeping on it for months or years. Also, most couples (not us though) would have an issue is rainy or cool weather and the lack of space and separation as they cruised all day.

Yes, easy to lock, but locking is easy anyway. I've never been on a boat that was hard to lock. Now I've seen some pontoon boats have a difficult time. Glad this boat does have bow thrusters.

Having seen no performance tests or evaluations on the boat, I am not ready to say how it would be transiting across the Gulf of Mexico. You say it's very capable and sturdy. What do you base that on? Have you been on one? Read a test or review from someone who has been? I'm not saying whether it is or isn't, just I don't have information to make such a statement. It would seem to me at this point it's very unproven.
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Old 03-03-2018, 07:55 PM   #33
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Island Bound wrote;
“the hull might be considered by some as a semi-displacement hull because you can push it, like many trawlers, a bit beyond the waterline length speed. As far as I am concerned, it is a full displacement hull with 2600 pounds of ballast.”

IB,
IMO ballast has nothing to do w being FD. It’s just a feature of many FD boats. I’ve never seen a boat that looked like the SP above the WL that was FD. But I haven’t seen her aft buttock below the WL so she could in fact be FD. Just extremely unlikely from what I can see. I think I saw a vid of the SP underway and my takaway was that she was extremly level running. A very nice feature of practically any boat at hull speed or above. I like the boat except for the poor visability fwd. And the aft cabin will be much more comfortable bucking head seas of most any size. I’d rather see where I’m going and take a little pounding.
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Old 03-03-2018, 08:47 PM   #34
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Island Bound wrote;
“the hull might be considered by some as a semi-displacement hull because you can push it, like many trawlers, a bit beyond the waterline length speed. As far as I am concerned, it is a full displacement hull with 2600 pounds of ballast.”

Hi Willy,

To clarify what I mean, if you are underway at 7 knots and burning one gallon of diesel per hour, you are operating the boat in a displacement mode. That would be the sweet spot for a SeaPiper. Our Great Harbor is a full displacement 40,000 plus pound boat. She will cruise comfortably at approx 7 knots minus currents or tides, with the power set at 70% of the max continuous RPM value of 3650 RPM. I operate the boat under a pretty narrow 200 RPM power band. I set the RPM and accept whatever speed I get. At that power setting, each engine (Yanmar 4JH3E) is burning approximately one gallon per hour. Bumping the power up generates more noise, a slight increase in speed and just about doubles your fuel consumption.

As an aside, when I was stationed in Hawaii during the eighties, I owned a Willard 30 for awhile with a 50 HP Perkins.
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Old 03-03-2018, 09:31 PM   #35
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IB,
My W30 is a Nomad as seen in my avatar.
I have no problem w high rpm engines. Our Willard has 37hp. The industrial rating from Mitsubishi. It’s a 3000rpm engine and we cruise at 2300. We burn 1gph at 6+knots. That shows how WLL hepls w speed. Our boat is 27.5 x 10’ at the WL. 8 tons disp w 2 tons ballast.

But IMO running a boat slow has nothing to do w the classification of hull. A hull is a hull. And the shape makes it what it is planing, SD or FD. It’s all about the hull form.
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Old 03-03-2018, 09:38 PM   #36
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I like the thinking of the Seapiper folks. I hope they catch on but I think its more a day/weekender rather than a Looper.
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Old 03-03-2018, 10:10 PM   #37
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Maybe for a single person, but just the thought of two people sleeping on it for months or years. Also, most couples (not us though) would have an issue is rainy or cool weather and the lack of space and separation as they cruised all day.

In the boating world, there are lots of couples living on sailboats smaller than 30 feet. There are also many couples cruising extensively on 25' Ranger Tugs, which has a lot less separation than a SeaPiper 35. I don't personally see the SeaPiper as a full time live aboard boat for a couple, but I am sure it could be done.

Yes, easy to lock, but locking is easy anyway. I've never been on a boat that was hard to lock. Now I've seen some pontoon boats have a difficult time. Glad this boat does have bow thrusters.

Locking is not always easy. There are lots of variables like boat geometry, wind and other boat traffic. Our boat has the mid cleat on the raised foredeck, which puts the bollards on the Tenn-Tom considerably below my 5' 4" wife's easy reach. A friend made us a PVC lasso arrangement with clamps for the line that when attached to a broom handle, gave my wife the reach she needed. We have transited these huge commercial locks 54 times, so I know that some times it goes more smoothly than others.

Having seen no performance tests or evaluations on the boat, I am not ready to say how it would be transiting across the Gulf of Mexico. You say it's very capable and sturdy. What do you base that on? Have you been on one? Read a test or review from someone who has been? I'm not saying whether it is or isn't, just I don't have information to make such a statement. It would seem to me at this point it's very unproven.
From the SeaPiper website:

"Strength and structure:
The hull bottom is solid hand laid fiberglass that is mostly 1/2in (12mm) in laminate thickness below the waterline, and 3/8in (10mm) laminate thickness above the waterline which is cored with the superior Airex coring material. This hull structure is extremely strong, well insulated, and the Airex cored topsides offer superior stiffness and impact resistance. The structure is reinforced with strong 2-inch thick Nidacore sub floors and EIGHT very substantial transverse bulkheads, five of which are designed as watertight bulkheads. Longitudinally there are two full height bulkheads under the sole from the stern forward that offer tremendous additional stiffness to the structure."

I get the fact that you are not a fan of the SeaPiper and that's fine, but the above paragraph defines the definition of sturdy in my opinion. The SeaPiper website has tons of detail on the specifications and construction details of this vessel. All vendor supplied equipment (hatches, vents, lighting, etc.) is identified by model number or part number. I have been tracking the birth of Hull #1 for the past 18 months and the company has been very forthcoming about sharing information and answering my many questions.

As for capable, I think a rock solid by reputation Beta engine coupled with a SeaKeeper 2 gyro and 270 gallons of fuel makes for a pretty potent combination. As Hull #1 was just delivered last week in California, I obviously have not seen one yet, but I am hoping to do so later this year. I will admit to a certain bias towards practical, workmanlike looking boats. The Great Harbour N37 falls into that category and the SeaPiper has always reminded me of a Navy launch.

Boating is all about choices, for a little over $200K you can buy a new 27' Ranger Tug with a 300 HP horse gas outboard or a 35' SeaPiper with a SeaKeeper gyro and an 85 HP diesel inboard. I know which one I would choose.





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Old 03-03-2018, 10:31 PM   #38
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From the SeaPiper website:

"Strength and structure:
The hull bottom is solid hand laid fiberglass that is mostly 1/2in (12mm) in laminate thickness below the waterline, and 3/8in (10mm) laminate thickness above the waterline which is cored with the superior Airex coring material. This hull structure is extremely strong, well insulated, and the Airex cored topsides offer superior stiffness and impact resistance. The structure is reinforced with strong 2-inch thick Nidacore sub floors and EIGHT very substantial transverse bulkheads, five of which are designed as watertight bulkheads. Longitudinally there are two full height bulkheads under the sole from the stern forward that offer tremendous additional stiffness to the structure."

I get the fact that you are not a fan of the SeaPiper and that's fine, but the above paragraph defines the definition of sturdy in my opinion. The SeaPiper website has tons of detail on the specifications and construction details of this vessel. All vendor supplied equipment (hatches, vents, lighting, etc.) is identified by model number or part number. I have been tracking the birth of Hull #1 for the past 18 months and the company has been very forthcoming about sharing information and answering my many questions.

As for capable, I think a rock solid by reputation Beta engine coupled with a SeaKeeper 2 gyro and 270 gallons of fuel makes for a pretty potent combination. As Hull #1 was just delivered last week in California, I obviously have not seen one yet, but I am hoping to do so later this year. I will admit to a certain bias towards practical, workmanlike looking boats. The Great Harbour N37 falls into that category and the SeaPiper has always reminded me of a Navy launch.

Boating is all about choices, for a little over $200K you can buy a new 27' Ranger Tug with a 300 HP horse gas outboard or a 35' SeaPiper with a SeaKeeper gyro and an 85 HP diesel inboard. I know what I would pick.





I'm not a fan nor a non-fan. This has nothing to do with being a fan or not. I like the unique concept and feel like it could be a nice boat for some. However, I cannot say capable and sturdy based simply on a builder's website. It wouldn't matter if it was a $200k boat or a $2 million. It sounds like their design and building methods are good. However, that doesn't always translate. Capable and sturdy also depends on parameters you're addressing. Does that mean you'd be comfortable on the ICW or does that mean you'd be comfortable in 4-6' seas crossing the Gulf or crossing the Gulf Stream. What does it mean in terms of different numbers of passengers.

Even though we know most media reviews are going to be positive and favor the builders, I'd still love to see an independent review and test with performance data and comments based on varying conditions, just as I would on the TT35. At least I'd like a report from someone who has been on one, also willing to answer questions. I'm not saying it's not sturdy and capable. I'm saying I don't know. Just a simple little thing you mention is the stiffness with the Airex. Well, some builders initially encountered too much stiffness. Then they worked it out. As the Seakeeper 2 is now recommended, would love for the review to be of one with a Seakeeper 2.

If I was a potential buyer for the boat, I'd be trying to arrange a sea trial on one right now. That would be key to me making a purchase or not. I applaud the company's approach and I do hope the boat in reality is everything you believe it is. I just don't think we can say without more.
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Old 03-03-2018, 10:58 PM   #39
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"By the way I think its odd they call the SP a 35 boat. Shes not even 34."

The SeaPiper website lists a 35' LOA. That probably includes the swim platform. The beam is 8 '6" and the hull might be considered by some as a semi-displacement hull because you can push it, like many trawlers, a bit beyond the waterline length speed. As far as I am concerned, it is a full displacement hull with 2600 pounds of ballast. Fully loaded it will weigh close to 20,000 lbs. With the standard 85 HP inboard Beta engine, sea trials have shown a seven knot cruise speed burning 1 GPH. With 270 gallons of onboard fuel, that will take you a long way. Setting aside a 10% reserve, that gives the boat an 1800 SM range. You could do the Great Loop on three fill-ups.

The below link explains the origin of the design concept for the boat. I applaud SeaPiper for thinking outside the box.

http://www.seapiper.com/about/


I guess the thing that really confuses me is the reason for the open center cockpit. I have spent my whole life in the PNW so my ideas of colored by cold, wet winters and cool wet summers where folks boat year round. I also spend most of that time in sailboats where I was out in the cockpit in the elements.

So can anyone explain the rational for the open center cockpit that separates the head and cabin from the galley, helm, and saloon?
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Old 03-03-2018, 11:23 PM   #40
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I guess the thing that really confuses me is the reason for the open center cockpit. I have spent my whole life in the PNW so my ideas of colored by cold, wet winters and cool wet summers where folks boat year round. I also spend most of that time in sailboats where I was out in the cockpit in the elements.

So can anyone explain the rational for the open center cockpit that separates the head and cabin from the galley, helm, and saloon?
I spoke to the designer a year ago..I may be wrong but I think the open center cockpit has something to do with the narrow beam and being able to utilize the full width in the main compartment..In order to incorporate side deck on that narrow beam you would not have anything left inside..
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