Sea Trial, mechanical, move forward?

[bshillam]

Good morning,
Yesterday we started our survey and mechanical on an 81 34' Convertible Tolly twin Crusaders. The mechanical so far has gone well. Temps held and were ok through WOT. However we only acheived 3100 RPMs during the sea trial. We believe that this was caused to several things, a fair amount of growth on the shaft and prop as the owner hasn't had the bottom attended to since 2/12. In addition there is a heavy tender on the back of the vessel as well as full tanks and six souls aboard.
However during the survey there were several key things found during the process. Last year the owner had the tanks scrubbed and all fuel polished. In the process the company that completed the work cut the aluminum tanks and put clean out plates on the side of the tanks. To which my surveyor says, "that is illegal." In a gas vessel you can not have any holes in the tanks on the side. No way to easily fix this issue now! The motors have to be removed to replace the tanks or hire someone that can weld the plates now back. Either way it's a safety issue.
The other issue, the deck has "plenty" of moisture. After doing a hammer and moisture reading in the cockpit around the lazerette cover extending about one feet around the piano hinge the moisture reader is pegged. The surveyor believes that the screws holding the hinge have allowed water into the core. In addition on the starboard side just aft of a filler running eight feet back to the salon. It appears it was the owner installed filler that has caused this. There is delamination occurring in both areas. Either way it has to be repaired and would probably cost more to repair the faux teak decking. So we would have to grind the old decking off and apply a non skid. OUCH....
Blisters - the surveyor didn't think they were to much of an issue. His recommendation, watch them each hull out and if changes occur repair. I didn't take pictures unfortunately but I would say there is maybe a total of 100 on the hull? But then again we could have some under the bottom paint, either way he didn't think there was anything to worry about.
Add a handful of other minor issues which I would equate to an older boat. Everything on the list could be repaired to the tune of maybe $500.
I guess my two major concerns at this point is the amount of moisture present in the decking and the extent of the fix needed to properly address the issue. In addition, plates on the gas tank. I asked for his professional opinion on the overall condition and he said better than most in this vintage.
I'd appreciate any feedback at this point. Has anyone had repairs to decking? What kind of cost did you occur? Should we keep looking? Should I expect this kind of condition in a 30+ year old boat and just fix it? We're looking at needing to spend about $8k on canvas as there is none. Now thousands more to resolve the moisture issues. So the boat is climbing to the mid $40s with all the needed work and improvements.
Thanks much for your help!

 

[FF]

>I guess my two major concerns at this point is the amount of moisture present in the decking and the extent of the fix needed to properly address the issue. In addition, plates on the gas tank.<

IF there is no sign of structural failure , cracked, crazed broken surface finish , I would ignore the moisture , or at best dry it out over a winter , or with heat , and simply do a proper workman like job on the hinge screws.

Should the info be correct about the tank hole either welding or a bladder would be easy cure.

 

[bshillam]

Yes there is cracks, probably three to each side about the size of half of a dollar or so. There was also a bracket bolted to this area to support the dink lift. This may have also been the area of water intrusion.
In both areas of the deck there is slight delamination that has occured as you can hear the "tacking" between layers of skin as you depress the area. This maybe gel again fiber but their bond is no longer viable. Previous repair attempts have injected epoxy in this area small holes with epoxy showing.

 

[sunchaser]

Why buy the boat given the issues? Especially with the potentially explosive tanks. Forty year old problems sounds like a walk to me especially with the plethora of boats for sale in the PNW.

 

[bshillam]

We're about 5-10k under current pricing in the area. I am willing to deal with some of the minor issues which I don't believe to be owner neglect. He just didn't know about some of the issues. Example would be some of the non op equipment on the fly bridge because he doesn't use the fly.
I know that all boats in this vintage will have problems. The deck is my largest concern above any other. The tanks can be welded, bladder installed as previously posted sounds like an option, etc. Heck - even new tanks installed if the Polishing company is going to carry the bill as it was their error.

 

[bshillam]

Just as a point of reference we are currently under $40k cash purchase on this vessel.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

Question, who/how do you go about welding a gas tank?

I would think that would be quite a job and one I would like to see....from a distance.

 

[bshillam]

Empty gas, fill with water, weld, drain water, dry and refill. Quite labor entensive. Might be more cost affective to replace. Anyone know approximately how much complete replacement would be?

 

[drb1025]

Why buy the boat given the issues? Especially with the potentially explosive tanks. Forty year old problems sounds like a walk to me especially with the plethora of boats for sale in the PNW.

Agree with sunchaser...

 

[bshillam]

So for spending 35-40k I should expect less trouble and a better kept boat in the PNW? If so does anyone have any leads?

 

[bshillam]

We have already spent close to 1500 in survey, hull out, wash, and mechanical. I hate to do this too many times. Guessa moisture reader is in my future.

 

[Adelaide]

We have already spent close to 1500 in survey, hull out, wash, and mechanical. I hate to do this too many times. Guessa moisture reader is in my future.

Looking at 30-40 year old boats, you'll never find one that is perfect for your budget. At those prices, and I'm certainly in the same situation, treat the boat as a car. Use it, take care of it, but don't chase problems. The blisters are nothing and most likely are cosmetic. The boat isn't going to sink on you. The decks, if not spongy, will probably last a long time, you're not going to fall through.

No offense to the other gentleman in this thread, but the guys telling you to run have $150K+ boats. Of course they would run.

Is the boat usable (engine, systems)? Is it's appearance pleasing to you? If so, buy the boat and enjoy the hell out of it for the next decade. Possibly think about covered moorage to keep it dry (LaConner is cheap!). Good luck to you.

 

[CPseudonym]

Fact - Less expensive boats have warts

Fact - Expensive boats do too, just less noticeable ones

So far none of the deficiencies you've mentioned scare me off. Negotiate a lower price if they do not scare you either, especially if they where not disclosed prior to your offer. If you're uncomfortable walk away considering it $1,500 well spent.

 

[BruceK]

With 3 substantial issues it sound marginal. If you like the boat, price the repairs and deduct that from fair value for a boat in good order,plus a "pain and suffering" component for taking it on. If you can buy for that, go for it.
Do not disregard the blisters. Repair is labour intensive and requires extended haul out.

 

[Adelaide]

With 3 substantial issues it sound marginal. If you like the boat, price the repairs and deduct that from fair value for a boat in good order,plus a "pain and suffering" component for taking it on. If you can buy for that, go for it.
Do not disregard the blisters. Repair is labour intensive and requires extended haul out.

Blisters are cosmetic, per his surveyor. I've never seen a boat sink from blisters, especially in the NW. Most blisters are actually in the bottom paint rendering them nothing more than an eye sore for the first 10 minutes after taking it out of the water. Blister issues are mainly scare tactics from yards who want costly repair jobs. Someone will have to show me pictures of boats that sunk or had to be scrapped due to blisters before I change my mind.

 

[GFC]

We're about 5-10k under current pricing in the area.

"The wrong boat, even at the best price in the world, is still the wrong boat."
--Mike Lauman, famous old mariner

 

[bshillam]

Good quote,
however I don't think it's necessarily the wrong boat. Just has some issues that should be addressed. At this point we're working on getting a quote to grind the faux teak deck off and replace with non skid, address the moisture areas whether rot or needing drying and resealing around the deck hardware, in addition what the fix would be to those darn tanks. If we can get those things fixed and or agree on a financial amount I feel this would be a great boat for the family now and in the future. We have looked at a fair amount of boats all the way up to 100k and this feels like a good value, not a steal, but a good value.
I mainly want to insure that I am not approaching this emotionally. Or should I say as unemotionally as possible. After all, why do we buy pleasure boats? To satisfy an emotion, some might try to argue a need, but it really is an emotion we're satisfying. Call it crazy but being on the water is my therapy.

 

[Marlinmike]

Funny, the biggest worry for me was the engines lack of getting to WOT RPM's, I would have preferred the owner resolve this issue, neg down a few bucks due to moisture and call it a day. Not sure for me personally would worry about access hatch in gas tank if it looks properly done.

 

[ksanders]

This is simple, and nothing else matters untill you resolve this issue.

If the surveyor says the fuel tanks are illegal, then you will probably not be issued an insurance policy untill they are repaired.

I would not spend another dime on that boat untill you determine how you as the new owner would resolve the fuel tank issue.

 

[Marlinmike]

Actually a very good point:

This is simple, and nothing else matters untill you resolve this issue.

If the surveyor says the fuel tanks are illegal, then you will probably not be issued an insurance policy untill they are repaired.

I would not spend another dime on that boat untill you determine how you as the new owner would resolve the fuel tank issue.

 

[boatpoker]

Your surveyor is correct ! No insurance company will cover fuel tanks like that. Its extremely unlikely that they'll cover gasoline in a bladder either and as someone else mentioned welding in place (if you can find someone to do it ... unlikely) will be more expensive than you'd think.

Soft decks will not hurt anything but the value of the boat, same with the blisters.
The fuel tanks however are a deal breaker.

 

[BruceK]

Blisters are cosmetic, per his surveyor. I've never seen a boat sink from blisters, especially in the North West. Most blisters are actually in the bottom paint rendering them nothing more than an eye sore for the first 10 minutes after taking it out of the water. Blister issues are mainly scare tactics from yards who want costly repair jobs. Someone will have to show me pictures of boats that sunk or had to be scrapped due to blisters before I change my mind.

There are blisters, and blisters. Generalization is unsafe, even if this case is cosmetic, though 100 in number would bother me.
Adelaide, I can`t meet your standard of proof and understand you may disregard this, but:
1. On my boat some blisters were ground about 1/2 inch deep before water intrusion was eradicated.
2. A shipwright told me he has had to grind through a hull to eradicate a blister, forming up a repair inside. I`ve no reason to disbelieve him.
3. An older sailboat, presenting at a yard I trust, had osmosis penetration deep enough to wet the interior. The furniture was glassed in, the cost of repair, including removing/replacing the furniture, made the boat not economically repairable.

There may be yards which "scare" people into unecessary repairs, but IMO, there are blisters which need repair and it is unsafe to assume otherwise in all cases.

 

[Bay Pelican]

If the tanks have to be replaced talk with someone who has done it. The time, expense of removing everything in the engine room is enormous. What is worse however is the number of mechanical electrical items which don't work after they have been removed and replaced. My simple Yanmar 27 hp engine has never worked correctly after our fuel tanks were replaced and I have spent a thousand dollars in mechanics trying to figure out why.

Thus if the fuel tanks must be replaced - be prepared.

 

[psneeld]

Blisters are cosmetic, per his surveyor. I've never seen a boat sink from blisters, especially in the NW. Most blisters are actually in the bottom paint rendering them nothing more than an eye sore for the first 10 minutes after taking it out of the water. Blister issues are mainly scare tactics from yards who want costly repair jobs. Someone will have to show me pictures of boats that sunk or had to be scrapped due to blisters before I change my mind.

Mine might have come close...the hydrolysis problem was at least 1/2 way through the laminates on a 5x5 foot section underneath the starboard fuel tank spanning more than 2 ribs. The serious damage may have come when the boat was out of the water and the weight of the fuel tanks may have exceeded the strength of that section and started to crack ribs. Another few winter freeze thaw cycles on this severely delaminated area was disturbing.

The only way to find a problem like mine is hull coring or grinding...I just happened to get there because of my "cosmetic" blisters as described by the surveyor and I decided to strip and barrier coat.

My estimation is there are other 1980's vintage boats out there where there is a much bigger problem than the owners know...but a fresh coat of bottom paint keeps everyone happy.

 

[bshillam]

Well, heres what my surveyor is saying

"Each opening into the fuel tank must be at or above the topmost surface of the tank." A clean out plate is certainly an opening.

The reasoning is obvious: if the fitting or opening leaks, there is little chance of fire or explosion if the fitting is on the top of the tank above the fuel. On the side of a full tank there could be a problem.

 

[bshillam]

Looks like a walk unless the seller is going to come down enough for me to replace tanks. I think all prospective buyers are going to have this issue and when it comes time to pay for insurance it also might continue to be a problem.

 

[ksanders]

Looks like a walk unless the seller is going to come down enough for me to replace tanks. I think all prospective buyers are going to have this issue and when it comes time to pay for insurance it also might continue to be a problem.

I think walking away is a good idea.

You learn something from failed surveys.

You might consider, on an older boat, making friends with your surveyor. Figure out how to pay him to "just look over" a boat that you are considering an offer on.

I would think that you could hire a surveyor for that kind of service for much less than a full survey. He could catch things before you get big bucks invested in a full survey, haulout, etc...

 

[bshillam]

I just spoke with insurance and they said, as long as we see it as an acceptable risk they will carry. He wants to see the survey but didn't say that they wouldn't. Maybe what I'll do potentially is use this to negotiate down and begin enjoying the boat?? It's close to what we're looking for and has a lot of the systems we are looking for as well. In addition the surveyor said it was in better shape than most in this vintage. Leaves me to believe if I correct the issues then she would be a good start for the next five years. I am going to look at a few more this weekend and make a decision after this weekend. Sleep on it a few more days.

 

[Nikko]

I too would not be comfortable with the inspection ports in the tanks. Prior to making an offer on the boat, perhaps have the current owner speak to the vendor the did the work to see what (if any) role they choose to take in the remedy of this situation (that they caused).

If you do choose to proceed, it would be wise to do so with am immediate plan to replace the tanks. Gasoline is not a substance to take risk with and while there may be other solutions - replacement of the tanks is by far the best one. Get a shipyard price for that work, but also get a schedule and duration - as the boat will be out of service for that repair. With these numbers in hand - begin your negotiation and prepare yourself with your own compromise limits .

As hard as it is to walk away from this sake - particularly seeing as you're invested in it - you need to be prepared to do so. his is not only your safety - it's also the safety of everyone else on the boat, and near the boat.

Here's hoping you can reach a suitable comprise...

 

[FlyWright]

I would have guessed that a 32-year-old turn key gasser 34 Tolly Convertible would be in the 35-40K price range. Subtract the soft deck, inoperative equipment and fuel tank issues, I'd be uncomfortable with anything above the low-20Ks.

There are so many good boats out there with motivated sellers. Now's the time to be a buyer. Maybe I'd chalk it up to a $1500 lesson and move on all the wiser. Next time, you'll be better educated to spot the problems and identify new ones before sinking $$ into a haul out.