SD v FD in weather

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Peter although this has been most helpful at the end of the day think people’s decisions reflect their inclinations. I’m most nervous in traffic, tight confines and skinny water. I’ve yet to injure a boat but there it is. Find coastal more stressful and less enjoyable. I’m a wimp so be it. I’m most relaxed off shore or near shore just moving along. Like to use what advantages I can find so running with the Gulf Stream lift going north is fun as is searching for countercurrents going south. Wife is of a similar disposition. Neither of us have been bored doing that. Weather is much discussed but little seen. However when it is you just need to be prepared. I started looking for the next baby in the fall and the offerings have been slim. Wife is insistent she wants to downsize the boat and wants sufficient play money to travel without the boat so that’s been another limitation. I have no interest in another new boat or a project boat as don’t want to spend the time and energy doing that instead of cruising. So we’ve started to look at SD. There are some mighty fine SD boats out there. But what I’m getting out of this thread is we would definitely have to modify our intended program if on a SD. Think people think about range differently. Having the ability to say screw it I don’t want to go into that harbor now in current conditions for fuel gives you some measure of freedom. Like it when your only limitation is running out of food. So we’re still undecided but leading to FD.
 
...... So we’ve started to look at SD. There are some mighty fine SD boats out there. But what I’m getting out of this thread is we would definitely have to modify our intended program if on a SD. Think people think about range differently. Having the ability to say screw it I don’t want to go into that harbor now in current conditions for fuel gives you some measure of freedom. Like it when your only limitation is running out of food. So we’re still undecided but leading to FD.

Range is what drove me to a FD boat (okay, economical range). For the very reason you note - in far-flung locations, it can be disruptive and serve to redirect cruising plans.

I think you have to decide on a use-case: what range do you want? Conventional wisdom on The Loop is 400 nms range is golden. Anything more is not really useful I suppose. For me, I targeted 1500 nms range. It was arbitrary because it's 1/3rd the distance from San Diego to Florida with stops in Acapulco and Panama. If I changed the use-case to 1000 nms, a lot of boats would fall into consideration.

I like the idea of auxiliary propulsion, but not willing to add the cost and complexity. I may live to regret that, but that was a decision.

My other concern is water tightness. I am not overly concerned about perfect-storm rollover as I have some confidence (arrogance?) in weather prognostication. My weather strategy is a rolling 3-day window. As long as I have bail-out points along the way within 2-3 days ahead of notice of bad weather coming, I'm good and I can go a long, long distance.

So there you have it. My functional requirements were 1500 nm [economical] range, relatively uncomplicated, and water-tight construction that could reasonably comfortably handle seas in the 6-foot range (which means stabilization), but safe in seas much bigger if something changes.

The 1500 nm range is the limiting factor and tipped soundly into FD. I wouldn't mind lowering that, but 1000 nms would be lower end - San Diego to Cabo.

Peter
Peter
 
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On the range topic, as boats get bigger, it becomes easier for a faster boat to carry enough fuel to have good range once you slow down. It's mostly in the smaller sizes where the faster boats just don't have the weight carrying capacity for that kind of range.
 
Every boat behaves a bit different from others. .

Finally, someone hits the rest of the story. It's not a quick brush of FD vs. SD, whatever that means or Semi-planing or planing. It's not even brands. So many factors and then it's the conditions and location. What each of us need to do is learn all we can about out boat and what to do with it in various situations we may find ourselves in. Every boat owner should have plans and comfort models on every boat. We own boats of different sizes and speeds which may all fall under the same general types but are not at all alike in terms of rough conditions.

For instance, a 40' boat that cruises at 35 knots has the great luxury of being able to quickly get to shore on any sign conditions are changing. It can even take moderate waves with fairly short periods and smooth them out at speed. However, if you were to try to handle 8' seas at hull speed in that boat you're going to be up and down and very uncomfortable.

Meanwhile go to a larger, slower boat such as an 85' which cruises at 20-22 knots and at hull speed it would handle the same conditions more comfortably. While the 40' boat above never really assumes the posture of a full displacement boat, the 85' can at hull speed. At that point it behaves much like a full displacement boat with the exception of only having a 5' draft so never as much depth or as much weight under the water surface. Less natural ballast.

When it comes to forecasts, with either of the above boats you're dealing with a very short window in which the forecast must be accurate and the forecasts are nearly always reasonably accurate within those windows.

The vast majority of cruising by TF members is something I term Coastal in nature and that included the Gulf of Mexico and the Gulf of Alaska. If you're within 200 nm of a coast, then I use the USCG definition and call that coastal. You can then cruise from Halifax, Nova Scotia or beyond to Anchorage, Alaska and all be coastal. You can cruise the Caribbean and all be coastal. I know that's a very broad definition but it's also one that fits into sea forecasting. Even at 6 knots, 200 nm is only 34 hours and our forecasts are very accurate within those ranges. Now someone did mention PNW Bar crossing. That is an area of concern. The CG does a great job of forecasting bar conditions and warning. When we cruised that area, our thoughts were get in at the first sign of trouble ahead and if that meant not making it to our original destination, then do it. The issues I'm aware of haven't come from inadequate warnings but from those not heeding them.

Now, as to passage making, we have only a few members here who do so. I consider it anything that takes us more than 200 nm from shore. Our longest trip to date was about 1000 nm from St. Thomas to Fort Lauderdale moving by the DR and then by Cuba. Now, not sure we should count a shore which wouldn't have liked us suddenly dropping in. We've done similar runs off the US coast but felt far less like we were doing a passage on them. We've planned a future Atlantic crossing and recognize there the entirely different risks and weather windows. We'll not be in a FD boat which the vast majority of those crossing are in. The longest single crossing will be Bermuda to the Azores if we take that route, just under 2000 nm. The facts the planned boat can cruise at 20 knots or that it has 3000 nm range are nice but mutually exclusive. 3000 nm is at 11 knots, 20 knot range only 1500 nm. We would anticipate then being 1000 nm from land and a speed of 12-15 knots so a maximum of 80 hours or 3 1/3 days. A boat crossing at 6 knots would reach a maximum of 170 hours or just over 7 days from shore on a 14 day crossing. In that area, the forecasting for 2 to 3 weeks is remarkably accurate so likely no unexpected systems but any can be degrees worse than expected. As to drogues, absolutely would have one for that trip.

One major element that concerns us and is less often mentioned is a true medical emergency at sea. When you're going to be days from possible medical care, you need to recognize that risk. We've undergone training, are equipped, and do subscribe to a service.

I believe in one doing their best to plan for all possible events, but that still doesn't mean everything. You plan for what might impact you on a specific boat doing specific cruising with specific people. Then plan for alternatives too if appropriate, but can't plan for the entire universe of situations that might impact the universe of boaters and boats.
 
Here's what i've found online....

Many FD owners or advocates insinuate that SD boats are only suitable for protected waters.

Many SD owners actually take their boats out in the open ocean quite successfully, regardless of what others advise.

We cruise the coastlines on both coasts day in and day out and nope we don't sink or die. :blush:
 
There is a lot of emphasis put on monitoring weather and picking the windows, and most of the time a 3 fay forecast is close to being accurate.
Perhaps weather forecasting may be less accurate down here compared to North America due to more unpredictable Southern Ocean, but in the short term it is usually very good.

However, my faith in relying on even a daily forecast was greatly reduced last year when cruising back from a visit to Kangaroo Island. The forecast for the day was for northerly breeze of 10 knots and swell/waves about 1 metre. The wind was forecasted to increase to 30-40 knots the following evening.

I had full sails up just to stabilise the boat a bit, with light wind about 30 degrees off the nose. It was a warm cloudless day. I looked out the portside window and noticed the ocean was frothy white. About 10 seconds later I was hit by what I later worked out was probably a microburst. An incredible wind like I've never experienced before hit me on the beam and flattened my boat. It only lasted about 15 minutes, but it scared the $^!# out of me.

I no longer have 100% faith in short term weather forecasts. It try to be ready for whatever comes my way.


burst
 
Here's what i've found online....

Many FD owners or advocates insinuate that SD boats are only suitable for protected waters.

Many SD owners actually take their boats out in the open ocean quite successfully, regardless of what others advise.

We cruise the coastlines on both coasts day in and day out and nope we don't sink or die. :blush:
I totally agree with this. Reminds me of a couple with young children (bumfuzzle.com) who are serial adventurers. They've circumnavigate on a smallish sail catamaran (34-foot as I recall). Cruised extensively on an old 43 foot mono sail, and driven an old airstream through Central and into South America. For the last few years, they've been aboard a mid-80s GB42 all over the Caribbean. It's a stabilized boat which they claim was dumb luck to have chosen.

SD vs FD in sub-60 foot boats really comes down to range, and meteorite insurance (meaning discussions around AVS and down-flooding, and get home power). You can mitigate these risks with a poultice of cash and buy a nordhavn, or you can mitigate by buying a sound boat and adding patience, trip planning to play the historical weather windows, and weather skills to stay within the range of acceptable forecasting.

I just don't see a big difference between SD and FD. If I had a [stabilized] GB36 instead of my [stabilized] Willard 36, I would plan a very similar trip from Ensenada to Florida. I'd need to rethink fuel stops. That's about it.

Peter
 
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I totally agree with this. Reminds me of a couple with young children (bumfuzzle.com) who are serial adventurers. They've circumnavigate on a smallish sail catamaran (34-foot as I recall). Cruised extensively on an old 43 foot mono sail, and driven an old airstream through Central and into South America. For the last few years, they've been aboard a mid-80s GB42 all over the Caribbean. It's a stabilized boat which they claim was dumb luck to have chosen.

SD vs FD in sub-60 foot boats really comes down to range, and meteorite insurance (meaning discussions around AVS and down-flooding, and get home power). You can mitigate these risks with a poultice of cash and buy a nordhavn, or you can mitigate by buying a sound boat and adding patience, trip planning to play the historical weather windows, and weather skills to stay within the range of acceptable forecasting.

I just don't see a big difference between SD and FD. If I had a [stabilized] GB36 instead of my [stabilized] Willard 36, I would plan a very similar trip from Ensenada to Florida. I'd need to rethink fuel stops. That's about it.

Peter

Excellent post! You as a willard owner know the difference between a real FD hull and a SD hull powered by engines too small to get it close to planing.

So many do not grasp that idea.

In terms of safety level seaworthiness there is no doubt that a full displacement hull will survive conditions that a similar size semi displacement hull could not survive.

The thing that most of us never figure out is that those conditions are something a prudent captain will never actually find them selves in during coastal cruising.

Passage making offshore beyond the ability to go to a safe place, is where full displacement passage maker level boats prevail. When you are so far from sure that you are beyond the semi accurate weather forecasting time frame you need to be able to survive anything that happens. That is frankly where a Boat like your willard any of the other other passage maker level boats are needed.

Everyone of us, if we go to sea long enough will find ourselves in either unforecast conditions or situation where we made a weather mistake and we will have an extremely uncomfortable day.

But there is a huge difference between an extremely uncomfortable day and day that we do not survive due to wave action.

I do not measure my success as a captain by the seas that I am able to safely pilot my boat in. I measure my success as a captain by the seas that I am able to avoid by making good decisions.
 
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Good post Kevin.
Just for info, a few years ago, a small floatilla of American Tug 34's transited down the west coast, through the Panama Canal and over to Florida. They are rated as "CE B" (I think they have named that designation as "Off shore" but not passagemaking). They, like many other SD boats are very capable, but are not intended to "cross oceans". If used prudently, with careful planning, as evidenced by trips like the one I described, these boats are capable "coastal cruisers". However, I would not want to operate my CE B boat in conditions anywhere near what the rating says they can take!

You only need Nordies, some Krogens, Willards, etc. if you actually plan to go long distances far from shore. Otherwise, you are buying them for "other reasons" (like peace of mind, looks, other preferences). Each to their own. :)

Overall, I enjoyed this thread and the various opinions, experiences, etc. Well done!!
 
With all the weather forecasting these days how does a costal cruiser get caught in bad weather?

Your signature says Gulf Coast. If that’s the GOM you can’t be serious about the above quote. One has to look no further than the Mobile Bay Fairhope Yacht Club race of 2015.

I carry a Para-Tech on the boat. The only time it’s ever been deployed is for practice. Thank goodness for that!
 
In terms of safety level seaworthiness there is no doubt that a full displacement hull will survive conditions that a similar size semi displacement hull could not survive.

There is doubt about this.

A full displacement hull is not intrinsically safer in survival conditions than a semi-displacement hull. The way many particular examples are built in detail, this may be true. It is not a characteristic of the hull type, but rather other design choices that are commonly made to serve the perceived market for each. There are SD hulls designed and certified to go offshore, as safely as FD hulls. There are FD hulls that would be unsafe far from shore. For passage making, displacement speeds are dictated by range, regardless of hull type.
 
Your signature says Gulf Coast. If that’s the GOM you can’t be serious about the above quote. One has to look no further than the Mobile Bay Fairhope Yacht Club race of 2015.

I carry a Para-Tech on the boat. The only time it’s ever been deployed is for practice. Thank goodness for that!
I had not heard of this event so a quick Google search pulled the following post-mortem (unfortunately, literally - six sailors died). For me, reminiscent of a Star boat I crewed on a couple seasons on Lake Dillon near Breckenridge CO. Thunderstorms are common in the mountains - one particularly vicious one flattened our boat, but more seriously sunk two Ensigns, another one-design class of bigger proportions. A dozen sailors ended up in the icy waters, one died.

https://www.fox10tv.com/news/coast-...cle_d88f1202-5fc5-11e9-94a6-43ff540ae2bb.html

Every 20 years or so there is a sailboat race catastrophe. Fastnet. Sydney-Hobart. And the cruiser catastrophe Queens Birthday Storm. Each cruiser should look at events like these and make their own decisions on what it means to them, if anything. If the conclusion is that near-unsurvivable weather can occur without enough notice to take evasive action, then by all means, buy a bunker of a boat. Or don't go.

Peter
 
When i was looking a boats i looked at Nordhaven and they are well thought out boats and certainly capable. I just couldn't get behind the extra cost upfront and the additional maintenance for all the systems. The brand i bought are delivered up and down both east and west coast with no problem. I think one needs to really think about what there real cruising will be. For us it was puget sound and maybe the coast to california so our boat will have no problem with that so long as i am willing to sit in port waiting for weather windows. I think some have dreams rather then real life.My wife and i are helicopter pilots and have been grounded in remote locations due to weather so plan b in kinda second nature.We were once in wind so strong we didnt have enough air speed at 110 knots to make headway so had to set in a farm field for better part of a day.
 
Peter thanks you for your thoughts about “range”. As you say it gives you a desirable degree of freedom which isn’t to be discounted.

The various posts concerning the inaccuracies of weather forecasting, even inside the 3 day window, are spot on IMHO.

I started this thread due to uncertainty about SD v FD for our program. This program is less ambitious than what we’ve been doing. So knowing my ignorance it was and is a honest question.

I have no brand loyalty, could give a rodents behind what brand name is on the boat. No one sees it except when you’re in a slip and we try to avoid slips. Boats are tool to serve a function. Some tools are excellent. I inherited my father’s German made hand tools and snap ons. They are excellent. My kids will inherit them from me. View boat brands the same way. Some have intermittent tabbing to hold the bulkheads. Some have glue holding the interior mold against the hull and inaccessible spaces. Some have balsa or wood as structural elements. This includes CE-A boats. We can discuss the incredible strength of modern adhesives but as a owner you have no idea if it was done right and no effective way to judge it. This is a bias. As is which vendors I’ll accept for through hulls, port lights, ground tackle and other elements of the boat. Everything has a service life. When choosing a boat that is a important part of the decision. So totally agree you’re on a boat not a brand.

Getting the point that range not hull may be a more deciding factor. Also personally remain concerned about payload. In the past have always carried at least 3 of everything and all appropriate tools. Stuff breaks or needs service. Often there’s no help nearby or supply points. Having a work space is most helpful. What’s your read on meeting that reality?
 
Realize I misspoke above. There’s nothing magical about 3 and number has actually varied.
Low for things not likely to break but key (fresh water pressure pump) and high for some consumables (filters). Perhaps in another thread the collective wisdom of this group would be willing to share what spares they carry?
 
In my real-work, I work with a lot of proof-of-concept innovation ideas, often joint ventures between large companies. We use a detailed version of the old Ben Franklin T-Chart evaluation process (feature/benefits on one side, disadvantages/barriers on the other) - Functional/Non-Functional Requirements (FNFRs). Each is graded with a "Must Have"/"Must NOT have;" "Should Have"/"Should NOT have; and some flavor of nice-to-have.

Now, it's probably not necessary to be too exact between what is functional and non-functional, but it might be a helpful exercise.

For me, MUST HAVEs include
  • >1000nms range (1500nms range is a SHOULD HAVE)
  • <36-feet LOA due to limit on size for slip I own
  • Stabilized
  • Protected running gear due to skinny water in Florida/Bahamas, her ultimate home
  • Good outdoor space with plenty of sun protection
  • Radar and autopilot.
  • Good access to/from dinghy
  • Room for stores and spares
  • Character - boat has to have a unique/cool factor
  • Decent galley
  • Dedicated shower

SHOULD HAVE
  • Under 19-feet air draft in case we decide to do the Loop, or ability to adapt to air-draft requirements within a day in yard if needed.
  • Indefinite off-grid power capabilities (solar)
  • adequate engine room that allows relatively easy service points
  • 1500 nm range
  • Watermaker
  • Generator
  • Get-home propulsion
  • Flopper-stoppers for at-anchor
  • Single engine
  • Full-width saloon - side decks are a waste of space for me. Asymmetrical saloon is a decent compromise
  • Minimized complexity. Simple electronics, identical pumps, reduced toys such as expensive search lights. Reduces number of spares required.

NICE TO HAVE
  • Second stateroom
  • Stand-up engine room
  • 1500 nm range at 8+ kts
  • Fiberglass fuel tanks
  • Dedicated shop-space

MUST NOT have
  • Cored hull, decks, or anything
  • Teak decks

ITEMS THAT ARE MISSING
  • ability to clear decks of green water within 30-seconds
  • Pilothouse configuration. Frankly, prefer not to have one as it's wasted space 90% of the time, and chops-up the rest of the boat.

I'm sure I'm missing things, but for us, the super-limiting items are 36-foot due to slip we own; and stand-up engine room. The outdoor space requirement and dinghy access drives towards a sedan or a PH configuration. Rules out ACMY styles and trunk-cabin styles as its not practical to cover the aft deck on smaller boats (the Defever 48 does a decent job, but that's getting to a sizeable boat).

Note there is not a peep about FD or SD, though the choices definitely drive to a FD, especially in a boat under 40-feet. Add a third stateroom or work-shop or even a stand-up engine room into the MUST HAVE category, and you're way past 40-ft (though the N40 comes dang close). The only nod to construction are deck-clearing ability and coring.

Peter
 
I also like to dig in to the details, and definitely have some OCD issues which is a good thing when it comes to open water boating, but I have to wonder sometimes at these threads: too much keyboard time, and analysis to paralysis.
 
Hi Peter,

The idea of a Sea Anchor that piqued my interest is the notion of a failed engine. Along the Pacific Coast, prevailing winds are from the NW so you are almost always staring at a lee shore in the event of an engine failure. Sea Anchor buys time - a precious commodity. They aren't very expensive and they don't take much room.

When we cast off back in 2012 my father sent me one of the Pardy books about heavy weather. After reading it we bought a para-anchor and rigged the 4 150' nylon lines they suggested. It was not cheap, but it is cheap insurance !

The para-anchor itself fits in a duffle-bag and the lines take about the same room. We have not yet had occasion to use it and we've failed to heed the advice to try it before you actually need it.

We also carry a fisherman's drift anchor (maybe 5' ?) just to keep the bow into the wind waves when we just want to stop for a bit. Doesn't work if there is no wind :)



-Sven
 
Hi Peter,



When we cast off back in 2012 my father sent me one of the Pardy books about heavy weather. After reading it we bought a para-anchor and rigged the 4 150' nylon lines they suggested. It was not cheap, but it is cheap insurance !

The para-anchor itself fits in a duffle-bag and the lines take about the same room. We have not yet had occasion to use it and we've failed to heed the advice to try it before you actually need it.

We also carry a fisherman's drift anchor (maybe 5' ?) just to keep the bow into the wind waves when we just want to stop for a bit. Doesn't work if there is no wind :)



-Sven
Thanks Sven. I'm seriously constrained by storage. I'm guessing that even a relatively small parachute anchor - a fisherman's anchor - would be an immense help. The old 20% of effort gives 80% of benefit axiom. What do you think? Our boats are roughly similar and sizing is at 15-18 foot diameter recommendation with several hundred feet of line. But guessing that's for big storm conditions. I'm thinking just keeping off a Lee shore in 25 kts of wind, not a hurricane. You've done a ton of sailing - what's your best thinking?

Peter
 
Hi Peter,

Thanks Sven. I'm seriously constrained by storage. I'm guessing that even a relatively small parachute anchor - a fisherman's anchor - would be an immense help. The old 20% of effort gives 80% of benefit axiom. What do you think? Our boats are roughly similar and sizing is at 15-18 foot diameter recommendation with several hundred feet of line. But guessing that's for big storm conditions. I'm thinking just keeping off a Lee shore in 25 kts of wind, not a hurricane. You've done a ton of sailing - what's your best thinking?

Since we've never used ours I'm a rank amateur on this topic. We got ours for survival conditions out in the open. As it turns out, we only had survival conditions anchored in a bay with a lee shore and that was not the time to use it. Our trusty bruce and 250+ feet of chain in 20' held us for ten days while only dragging 80', 8' per day.

I do remember having discussions with the para-anchor people about getting something smaller than what they suggested and I think they reasoned that if it was smaller, then the bow could still get pushed over and then we'd get hit abeam and roll. If you are not in survival conditions but just want to slow the drift down and stay bow into the waves while working on the engine, then my novice guess would be that a smaller para-anchor would do it.

We do have the big para-anchor and all the line onboard LAGOM, from Senta-II. If I could figure out the proper lights for using a sea anchor out in the open I'd love to try it ... proper lights in that situation tends to create threads as exciting as those about which anchor is best :-D

-Sven
 
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