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Old 06-17-2017, 10:00 AM   #61
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As mentioned above owner style is a major factor in cost of ownership. If it wasn't foggy today I could row around the harbor and take pictures of a couple of dozen sailboat in the 40-60 foot range that the owners spend in excess of $40K (for some far in excess) a year maintaining before they move even one foot. Pretty much all of those boats have pretty sophisticated electronics (radar, look ahead sonar etc., multiple large displays at helm and below in the nav station, satellite communications, etc.). All of the boats have well equipped galleys with refrigeration and whatever they feel they need/want. Most of the boats have appropriately sized generators in addition to pretty large battery banks. Heck I have a 600 amp-hour battery bank on my 36' sailboat. Accommodations differ from power boat accommodations largely in terms of windows - they are smaller on the sailboats. I know of one boat that has a piano (not electric) in the main salon. As far as systems go, the sailboats do not have active stabilization because they don't need it. However, their sail handling systems can be very complex including powered sail furling and powered winches (read expensive). Most of the larger boats have bow thrusters. All have sophisticated autopilots. Buying one of these boats new will cost multiple millions of dollars. Oh yes, most of them are locally built.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:34 AM   #62
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Lets face it...sailing away to parts unknown is a dream many boaters have at some time.

The cheapest way to do that is a decent medium sized sailboat.

Either side of the powerboat/sailboat equation can be cheap or expensive...but most gravitate to the seaworthy sailboat barely big enough to be serious but within tbeir budget.

We here on TF often advise against thinking world cruising in a 20 plus year old trawler, but over on the sail forums, a 20 year old sailboat is considered just fine... so go for it.

While you can make this a hardware apples to apples discussion...not so sure the thought process is anything but a rollercoaster.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:47 AM   #63
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"We here on TF often advise against thinking world cruising in a 20 plus year old trawler, but over on the sail forums, a 20 year old sailboat is considered just fine... so go for it."

Yes but,

Its not the "trawlers" age , its the non ocean design and brown water scantlings.

Same problem with 98% of brand new "trawlers" .

Blue water boats cost perhaps 300% more , and have less comfort in brown water cruising..
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:55 AM   #64
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Well said FF.
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Old 06-18-2017, 08:23 AM   #65
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Thus really making my point....the concept of sailing being cheaper...

A small production sailboat IS that much more seaworthy when even coastal island hopping...even if not true, the perception is widely accepted.

I never worried about taking seas on deck in my small sailboats, but get pretty nervous about green water over the bow on my old trawler.

As I said earlier, it does have a lot to do with comparing usage as much as anything.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:20 AM   #66
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Having owned many boats of different design I have come to the conclusion that a well found sail boat with a short sturdy rig a moderate sized engine with a three bladed prop and greater tank-age than standard would make the least expensive most seaworthy craft. Most of the boats on this sight whose owners consider their boats trawlers don't even come close in my opinion. The fly in the ointment is the lack of adequate cottage and the reluctance to deal with sail even a short rig. Maybe boats ought to be subdivided by usage into Sea boat,cottage boats and sport boats and then we can ditch the meaningless trawler moniker. Yes there would be cross over where a cottage boat like a NH would also be a Sea boat but that system of defining use and type would be far more meaningful and useful than the undefinable Trawler designation. I think my row boat is a trawler how can you tell me otherwise? You can, so define trawler, so I know what is not. I see you can tell when you see one.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:42 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
Having owned many boats of different design I have come to the conclusion that a well found sail boat with a short sturdy rig a moderate sized engine with a three bladed prop and greater tank-age than standard would make the least expensive most seaworthy craft. Most of the boats on this sight whose owners consider their boats trawlers don't even come close in my opinion. The fly in the ointment is the lack of adequate cottage and the reluctance to deal with sail even a short rig. Maybe boats ought to be subdivided into Sea boat,cottage boats and sport boats and then we can ditch the meaningless trawler moniker. Yes there would be cross over where a cottage boat like a NH would also be a Sea boat but that system of defining use and type would be far more meaningful and useful than the undefinable Trawler designation. I think my row boat is a trawler how can you tell me otherwise? You can so, define trawler so I know what is not. I see you can tell when you see one.
+1 my thoughts exactly.
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:59 PM   #68
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I never worried about taking seas on deck in my small sailboats, but get pretty nervous about green water over the bow on my old trawler.

.
As do I.
Probably has something to do with the deck of the trawler being considerably higher therefore the wave is considerably bigger.
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:53 PM   #69
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Not really, the sailboats had nothing to take tbe brunt of the waves like the trawler's cabin, plus no windows to punch out, plus a better righting moment even with water in them.

They also seemed to roll with the punched instead of fighting tbem...most powerboats just seem more at odds with nasty seas...

All my sailboats from 19 to 30 feet seemed much better sea boats than my Albin.
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:04 PM   #70
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If you're going to ride bare sticks up and down the ICW then a sailboat is cheaper. If you actually sail, then sails and rigging are expensive to keep up and replace.
Depends how you do it. My sails all lasted more than ten years. If you don't flog them and pay attention to a stitch in time and keep them covered out of the sun when not in use they keep going. I also did my own sail and rigging repair and occasionally sail making. No question in my mind sail boats are less expensive to run. Also a 15-20 year old sail boat is often in much better overall shape and sea worthy than a comparable motor vessel and can be the economical buy between the two. I think the real question for many on this site is not coast but cottage comfort and effort and skill needed to run the boat. On the hook and at the dock comparing boats of the same LOA the power craft is much more home like and the sail boat is more like camping out, until you get to the new big model sail boats which have been cottaged up.
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:38 AM   #71
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"until you get to the new big model sail boats which have been cottaged up."

The difference is mostly do you live IN the boat or ON the boat.

Cottaging , up 2 or 3 stories allows a view that can not be had from inside a hull.
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:23 AM   #72
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I was on a sail boat yesterday (America's Cup) that burns 4-5+ gal diesel/hr just to run "engines" for PTO's for sail hydraulics.

So... while sailing, not motoring, it burns twice the fuel of my stinkpot 50' trawler!

so I believe there is no sail v motor discussion unless many other variables matched.
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:42 AM   #73
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Years ago I owned a 34 foot sailboat and found in general ICW and coastal cruising I was running the engine close to 80-90% of the time. I now have a 34 foot Mainship trawler. The trawler has a much larger and usable interior space than the sailboat and at normal 8kt cruising speed is 2-4 kt faster than the sailboat was. True that fuel consumption is more but the slower sailboat speed was frustrating to me especially trips up and down the ICW. Also with the WOT speed of 12-14kt on the trawler I would have a much better chance of outrunning bad weather than with a sailboat in my opinion.
With these days of driving 60mph+ down the highway, going 8kts in a boat seems so much faster compared to 5kts to me.
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:55 AM   #74
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As a former sailor, I do find it comical how many sailboats motor when sailing or motorsailing would be oerfect.

About 10 percent of the sailors do sail/motorsail while the other sailboats are just motoring. Plus, the ones sailing/motorsailing usually catch up or pass me.
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Old 06-20-2017, 09:47 AM   #75
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"Plus, the ones sailing/motorsailing usually catch up or pass me."

To motor sail easily inshore with winding rivers , if the mainsail is fully battened , its a snap.

Conventional sails are a PIA with a constantly varying course.
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Old 06-20-2017, 11:47 AM   #76
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My argument to even my motor only sailboat freinds is....

On many stretches of the ICW the course changes for a given wind arent extreme enough ....so for hours, setting roller furling sails to me is a good idea and is why the comical comment. Not like the old days before the very common roller head sails of today.
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Old 06-20-2017, 02:57 PM   #77
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Having owned many boats of different design I have come to the conclusion that a well found sail boat with a short sturdy rig a moderate sized engine with a three bladed prop and greater tank-age than standard would make the least expensive most seaworthy craft. Most of the boats on this sight whose owners consider their boats trawlers don't even come close in my opinion. The fly in the ointment is the lack of adequate cottage and the reluctance to deal with sail even a short rig. Maybe boats ought to be subdivided by usage into Sea boat,cottage boats and sport boats and then we can ditch the meaningless trawler moniker. Yes there would be cross over where a cottage boat like a NH would also be a Sea boat but that system of defining use and type would be far more meaningful and useful than the undefinable Trawler designation. I think my row boat is a trawler how can you tell me otherwise? You can, so define trawler, so I know what is not. I see you can tell when you see one.
Excellent summary of boat types!
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Old 06-20-2017, 03:03 PM   #78
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"Plus, the ones sailing/motorsailing usually catch up or pass me."

To motor sail easily inshore with winding rivers , if the mainsail is fully battened , its a snap.

Conventional sails are a PIA with a constantly varying course.
Motorsailing winding rivers can be done a few ways. My gaff rigged main (no battens) and club footed jib (self tacking) are about as easy to operate as anything.
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Old 06-20-2017, 11:31 PM   #79
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We found that we were running the engine 3/4 of the time. Most of the time running the engine, we were motorsailing. Even with just the main up, we would gain 1/2 a knot going upwind and have a much more stable and comfortable ride. A 1/2 knot doesn't seem like a lot, unless it means going from 5 1/2 knots to 6 knots.
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Old 06-22-2017, 05:36 AM   #80
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"Most of the time running the engine, we were motorsailing."

So you hoisted the proper day signal to alert all that in fact you were powering?
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