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Old 06-15-2017, 12:30 PM   #41
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For sail to be a cheaper cruiser the power hog, refrigeration , should be eutetic , not electric.

Our cruise NYC , Bermuda , St Barts and back only required engine operation for 2 hours every 3rd day, fuel was no big deal .Maybe 50-60 gallons all season.

Operating in the AICW it IS 99% power as most bridges wont let one sail thru , and milling around waiting for the slowest boat in a pack to catch up is a PIA under sail.

Here a fully battened main is a blessing as it does not flog when stalled.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:03 PM   #42
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Our cruise NYC , Bermuda , St Barts and back only required engine operation for 2 hours every 3rd day, fuel was no big deal .Maybe 50-60 gallons all season.
Your description is the most efficient type of voyage for a sailboat a real passage. We island hopped with a group of eight sailboats and two trawlers from the Bahamas to Grenada. From the Bahamas to St. Martin the sailboats were motorsailing. Once in the Eastern Caribbean the distances were small and more fuel is used in generating electricity then in moving.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:21 PM   #43
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I have run across sailboats with the same main motor we have (Lehman 135) and the same generator (Westerbeke 8kw) but these boats were all 10 feet or more longer than our Krogen. The monohulls don't have the same space we have until they are much much longer than our 42 feet. The cats start seeming similar at around 48 feet with a wide cat with two engines.

.
It just reemphasizes that length of boat is a lousy comparative factor period. You can't compare a 45' Catamaran to a 45' Monohull. You can't compare a 45' Passagemaker with Flybridge to a 45' Day Express. Yet people always focus on length. So, let's compare a 42' Center Console to a 42' KK. I know the first thought is that would be stupid, but then we turn right around and try to compare a narrow beam, little interior space, lightly equipped sail boat to that same 42' KK and it is just as poor a comparison.

I'll toss a little sailboat in for comparison if one thinks sailboats are always less expensive. Lurssen EOS.

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It's a sailboat. 305' long, 45' beam, draft of 18' so probably not for the ICW. Small auxiliary engines for when sails aren't enough, twin 2332 hp. Max speed 16 knots. Accommodates up to 16 guests with all amenities and a crew of 21. Now that it matters but I'm sure it has all the costs of a 305' powerboat plus all the costs related to the sails.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:37 PM   #44
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having done sail and power for over 50 years often owning at least one of each. Including some partial live aboard gunk holing. My conclusion is that sail has the potential of being considerably cheaper depending on how you do it. I found sailboats easier to do my own repair and did the mechanical rigging sail repair and even sail making myself. Many sail boats used coastal and inland go very long times on the original rigging and sails that are not flogged or over exposed to sun when not hoisted also with occasional repair go a long way.Most sailboats are very fuel efficient under power and more so motor sailing. The general nature of motor boats leads itself to dependence on fuel costs and more system complication not essential but prevalent. I think power especially in mid to larger trawlers many heavy on the cottage on the water side of the boating equation, often attracts people who would go for the extras and not get that personally involved driving the costs up. During the past 15 years I have noticed the same cottaging up sort of thing happening with mid to larger sail boats. This is not universal but by my observation more common than not. If cut to the bare essentials I think sail is the economy winner by a fair margin. Any other attempts at comparison get pretty muddy.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:49 PM   #45
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having done sail and power for over 50 years often owning at least one of each. Including some partial live aboard gunk holing. My conclusion is that sail has the potential of being considerably cheaper depending on how you do it.
And rowboat has the potential of being considerably cheaper than sail.
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:48 PM   #46
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When I did the comparison it was between Hobo and Allons'y, our Slocum 43. The purchase price was ~20% less but we're about equal on putting money back into them. The fit and finish was better on the sailboat with engineering/design about equal.

One of the wild cards for cost is how the boat is used. The other is how it's being or has been maintained. I see a lot of boats sail and power, which are total wrecks. Those are pretty cheap to own.

presenting s/v Allons'y: a Semi-Custom Slocum 43
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Old 06-15-2017, 03:28 PM   #47
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That Slocum is a beautiful boat, Larry.

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Old 06-15-2017, 05:08 PM   #48
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And rowboat has the potential of being considerably cheaper than sail.
Quite right. The OP asked us to compare apples to oranges thus a muddy set of answers. Rowboat and kayak cruising is done and very popular in the PNW and yes very economical. The cottage stays home with most of the home comforts the adventure is included at no extra cost. My take on the cost is that there are two areas that call for a lot of the extra $. One area unrelated to the type of boat is the Gold Platting effect. The other area is the degree of cottage comfort one demands of their craft.
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Old 06-16-2017, 10:42 AM   #49
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I think sailboats are definitely cheaper on average to run than trawlers, mostly for the reasons already mentioned, that they have simpler, smaller systems, are much more fuel efficient under power due to design, and less interior volume. To try and compare them apples to apples is folly as they are different things and experiences. Three other areas I have not seen mentioned are along the same lines, but they make a big difference.

1. Because sailboats have two completely separate propulsion systems, they can be operated in a much higher state of neglect. It is not that dangerous to take off with few spares for the engine, questionable fuel, old crappy sails, etc, because you can almost always limp in to safety on the other system.

2. Most sail boats have no place to store a nice dingy, so instead of a 12' center console with a 40hp outboard for $25,000, you end up with something much smaller and cheaper.

3. There is much less temptation to drop huge amounts of money on electronics on a sail boat. They don't have the power to drive huge open array radars, satellite tv, multiple large displays at helm, and flybridge, fancy fish finders etc.
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:36 AM   #50
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I think sailboats are definitely cheaper on average to run than trawlers, mostly for the reasons already mentioned, that they have simpler, smaller systems, are much more fuel efficient under power due to design, and less interior volume. To try and compare them apples to apples is folly as they are different things and experiences. Three other areas I have not seen mentioned are along the same lines, but they make a big difference.

1. Because sailboats have two completely separate propulsion systems, they can be operated in a much higher state of neglect. It is not that dangerous to take off with few spares for the engine, questionable fuel, old crappy sails, etc, because you can almost always limp in to safety on the other system.

2. Most sail boats have no place to store a nice dingy, so instead of a 12' center console with a 40hp outboard for $25,000, you end up with something much smaller and cheaper.

3. There is much less temptation to drop huge amounts of money on electronics on a sail boat. They don't have the power to drive huge open array radars, satellite tv, multiple large displays at helm, and flybridge, fancy fish finders etc.
Well said you put my thoughts on the matter together in a succinct and orderly fashion.
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Old 06-16-2017, 12:50 PM   #51
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My 40' sailboat was plenty comfortable - A/C, nice galley, comfy bed. But while the two past times involve water, traveling, marinas, weather, electronics, etc, they are really completely different. I would submit that between the two, comparable sailboats are significantly cheaper to buy and operate than a powerboat, but those costs have to be taken in the context of what a person actually likes to do. Underway, under sail, sailboats aren't level, they often cant go directly where you want to go, and they typically aren't as "easy" as a powerboat. On the other hand, they're far more seaworthy in very bad conditions and they are pretty much unlimited in terms of distance. People who like to sail from place to place seem to like it for the "art" of sailing - they aren't as concerned about all the comforts of home as they are with the whole act of getting there by using the wind. It's certainly more work, and sailing is probably closer to a "sport" than traveling by trawler but that doesn't make one choice better than the other. It's like asking "Which is cheaper...golf or tennis?" If you like tennis better, it doesn't really matter.
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:00 PM   #52
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My friend,Ola, have a 40 ft ketch sailyatch, after every 8 years he need new sails, and that cost him 13500$ every time.That's in Sweden, and above that he burn about 250-300 liters of diesel a year, 2,$ per liter, we are still in Sweden. Me and my wife have our Bestway 42 with twin tamd 41 Volvo.we will burn about, 1100 liters of diesel a year, as above 2,$per liter. So in Sweden, I prefer my Bestway, as long as I'm not forced to travel the world around. What I mean is, I can stay in dock and save fuel, but my friend, can't turn of the sun, that's killing his sails,and rigging. So, in Sweden at least, I am the winner.
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:36 PM   #53
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I think sailboats are definitely cheaper on average to run than trawlers........
Once again you have compared an apple with an orange
Try comparing like with like and try again.
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:39 PM   #54
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sorry, what do you mean. I have compared, the cost, nothing else. please tell me what do you mean.
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Old 06-16-2017, 04:15 PM   #55
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sorry, what do you mean. I have compared, the cost, nothing else. please tell me what do you mean.
If you are talking to me my response was to snapdragon.

What I mean is if your trawler has large space, large appliances, comfortable lounge and dining, household bed, large tender, comprehensive electronics then it is pretty silly comparing it to a 30 ft sailboat with limited comforts and claiming sailboats are cheaper.
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Old 06-16-2017, 04:25 PM   #56
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sorry, what do you mean. I have compared, the cost, nothing else. please tell me what do you mean.
He was commenting on Snapdragon's post as quoted.

Funny story for Snapdragon
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A few years ago we made a crossing of Georgia Strait to Pender Harbour in 25 - 30 knot winds. When we arrived at the marina a few boaters on the docks asked how the crossing was, my wife replied not too bad.

About 30 minutes later a 40 something sailboat departed for Nanaimo, I advised him of sizeable breaking seas and head winds for him. He puffed his chest out saying how much better a sea boat a sail boat like his was as compared to our DeFever. Four hours later they returned, everybody soaked and looking bedraggled. No more was said about how seaworthy his sail boat was.

For comparing the seaworthiness of the two vessel types, a careful read of Setsail may dispel a few notions.
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Old 06-17-2017, 05:47 AM   #57
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"From the Bahamas to St. Martin the sailboats were motorsailing."

With the wind usually 120deg at 15 K, most sailors would rather power than beat to windward .

Sailors with better boats will sail although this increases the distance and time.

With a good Self Steering gear its no big deal, unless one wanted to stop on the way.
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Old 06-17-2017, 06:37 AM   #58
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57 posts later what I have been reading is that many posters hold that sailboats are cheaper because you have less interior space and don't need/want/buy all of the extras such as large refrigeration, electronics, washing machines, large dinghies etc.

Well OK if you have a lesser item it should cost less. I have compared our Kadey Krogen 42 to sailboats for years. Two examples of sailboats which I find comparable in size and equipment are a 54 ft Amel and a 48 ft cat (24 ft wide). Both have comparable interior volume and are equipped fairly closely to Bay Pelican. Watermakers, washing machines, generators, tv systems, at least three cubic feet of freezer and four cubic feet of refrigerator, 10.5 ft rib with 9.9 or 15 hp outboard, and full electronics at the helm.

These examples are comparing apples to apples. I have known the owners of both boats long enough to have a feel for the expenses and my gut is the differences in costs over a multi-year period are more a reflection of the owners' style than the boat. The owners of neither of these boats spend less that I do on Bay Pelican.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:08 AM   #59
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But if all three of you started traveling year round thousands of miles?
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:00 AM   #60
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But if all three of you started traveling year round thousands of miles?
Good issue. But each year we are in St. Lucia for the arrival of the ARC which is a Med to Eastern Caribbean sailboat rally. Also we frequently see the end of the World ARC which is a 14 month around the world rally.

The Atlantic Rally is perhaps 2,500 miles. For Bay Pelican that would be 625 US gallons of diesel, more or less. At $3.50 per gallon that would be $2,200, plus two oil changes on the main engine for another $200. An additional $100 for the stabilizer filter. While it is possible that some repairs could be needed because of the 400 hours on the engine it is not a sure thing.

My experience with the sailboats coming in from the Atlantic crossing is that frequently there is need to replace some sail, some rigging, or some eisenglass. This is a major source of income for the sailmakers and riggers in St. Lucia, Martinique and Grenada each year. The organizers of the rally discuss these costs and advise the cruisers to be prepared for them. I can't estimate what the average is but it doesn't take much to spend $2,500 on any one of these items for a sailboat.
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