rules of the road

[Arctic Traveller]

Originally Posted by rwidman

If you insist on maintaining ccourse and speed because you are the stand on vessel, you may end up being "dead right".

In the real world, the other boater quite possibly doesn't know the rules and may mistake your horn signal for you just being a jerk.

It's a good classroom exercise, but not practical in the real world. Further in the regulations is a statement about taking any action to avoid a collision. It's important.

Rule 1 states, "These rules shall apply to ALL vessels.............

Rule 2 states " Nothing in these rules shall exonerate any vessel ....from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen or by the special circumstances of the case"

Crawford says, "There is no alternative to compliance with rule 2 on any waters" "It's a stern reminder that the regulations do not overlook common sense". Nothing shall bring acquittal from the consequences of stupidity. Seamen cannot abdicate seamanship by blind adherence to words printed on a page". No one should have the right to disregard the last clear chance to avoid disaster. What rule 2 says is that it is a violation of the rules to cleave the regulations when a departure might negate the danger". ..........Arctic Traveller

[Marin]

I would have thought it was #1 because while the example said your boat had to remain in the channel to navigate it didn't say anything about having to keep moving, like a tug and tow for example. So based on the conditions given in the example there is no apparent reason why the boat in the channel couldn't slow down or even stop. Which means there would be no reason to sound the danger signal since there isn't any in this case.

Had the example included information describing the boat in the channel as being restricted in its ability to maneuver (which means the ability to change speed as much as it means the ability to change direction) then the danger signal would be appropriate.

[psneeld]

The trouble with these USCG generated (or many other sources) questions is they are a snapshot in time. The question isn't about what could you have done 5 minutes ago or what you should do a minute or two ...they are for only as the question reads.

In a narrow channel that you MUST stay within and shouldn't just arbitrarily move around in...and maybe you can't maneuver at all in including slowing down because you are a million ton barge train approaching a bend or bridge...the answer is easy...

You are the stand on and have to let the other vessel know that if it proceeds crossing your bow a danger situation is occurring. Sound 5 or more short blasts to let them know.

The question doesn't say you are pretty sure a collision is going to happen...it just says your not sure just how close it might be...if the question said there's no doubt that a collision or unsafe situation was about to occur...then altering course and speed would be prudent.

You really have to dissect the answers to see they are set up to be tricky/confusing.

Answer one CAN"T be right cause the other vessel isn't the stand on vessel (the way the question is worded)

Answer two isn't right yet because you are supposed to hold course and speed, you CAN'T safely operate out of the channel so a premature turn would be incorrect if you grounded or sank yourself whch is just as bad as a collision.

Answer three CAN'T be right because it says you MAY sound the danger signal and the rules clearly state that if you are in doubt you MUST sound the danger signal.

Many people don'y understand the ABSOLUTES in government regs/rules when the terms "may" or "must" are used...they choose those words very carefully.

While these rules generally apply to commercial THINKING...they do apply to us and to ANSWER the question and not what is done in the real world with our little pleasure cruisers...the BEST answer can only be "3".

[rwidman]

Again, a classroom exercise, and perhaps a test question, but a prudent operator is not going to proceed into a collision situation blasting his horn because he has the right of way. If we are talking a tug and barges, yes. If we are talking recreational trawlers, it's just not worth it to assert our right of way and risk a collision. Picture this if you will:

You are in this situation heading for a sure collision with another boat, blowing your horn. Your wife, by your side says "Honey, you better slow down or we'll hit that boat." Is your response "F**k him, I have the right of way?

-------------------------------------
Now let's look at another set of "rules". On the Atlantic ICW, at least, it is common practice for a faster boat wanting to overtake a slower boat to call the slower boat on the radio and arrange for a "slow pass", that is the slower boat in front will slow or stop and the overtaking boat will then pass at a no-wake speed.

This is, of course, a violation of the rules because the stand on boat is supposed to maintain course and speed while being overtaken. If these two boats followed the "rules", it would either take a couple miles for a 7 knot boat to pass a 6 knot boat, or the overtaking boat would speed past the slower boat, throwing a huge wake.

So - we are breaking the rules, but operating with courtesy and common sense.

One more thing - how many folks here display an anchor ball when anchored during the day? It's in the rulebook.

[RickB]

Originally Posted by rwidman

This is, of course, a violation of the rules ...

Nonsense, it is in accordance with the rules in that it is part of the passing "agreement."

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by RickB

Nonsense, it is in accordance with the rules in that it is part of the passing "agreement."

Exactly...amazing how many try to argue the difference between the rules and reality when they are really both the same...it's just that test questions are only a snapshot in time and they don't take alternative actions in mind usually for "other" possible answers...you are forced to pick the "best" answer.

As far as having a collision in one of our toy boats...well if you do it's because you weren't paying close attention...95% of the time I can stop a boat or turn a boat in several boat lengths so waiting a second after the MUST requirement of blowing my whistle sure isn't gonna cause the collision...it would be my lack of expertise at the helm.

[Art]

With good working, properly sized and located propulsion equipment aboard our minimally sized Toy Boats; and with a competent pilot at the helm there should be little reason for collision or grounding. Twin screw is a plus in this regard. But single screw can also be made to respond for emergency maneuvers. Basically it means: Take it slow in the first place, give wide berth to others, and be ready to apply momentary power and applicable shift/rudder alterations for quick boat placement alterations or to immediately attain a dead stop or even a fast reverse mode if necessary.

Keep you eyes and ears wide open at all times!

[skipperdude]

The reason for posing this question was just for all the reasons discussed.

A lot of the questions on the exam to get a captains license are like this.
sort of trick questions.
myself and my mate debated over the question so I thought to pose it to the board for additional arguments.

psneeld next to last post has the best argument in my opinion.

Thanks for the discussion.

I have a book and cd on getting your captains license my mate and I take the test often just to see how much we know.

I would like to pose a few more of them to the forum
The questions do seem to generate some thought provoking discussion.

I could be fun to have a question per week or untill the discussion ends.

What do you think?

SD

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by skipperdude

.......
I could be fun to have a question per week or untill the discussion ends.

What do you think?

SD

Post the one about the anchor ball when anchored in the daytime.

[Art]

Originally Posted by skipperdude

Thanks for the discussion.

I have a book and cd on getting your captains license...

I could be fun to have a question per week or untill the discussion ends.

What do you think?

SD

Mariners School, book and cd?

As has been mentioned... questions are often trick and real life boating situations can mandate not only "legal" CG response per circumstance but also the Captain's best boat-handling efforts as a situation unfolds.

That said: Sure... a weekly question might be fun for honing our pilot skills! Thanks, Art

[skipperdude]

The book is divided into sections. It is set up so that the answer is given as a teaching method with site and page for the definition. There is rules of the road, Deck general, Navigation and so forth. I don't have it with me now but on Monday.
I will find the question and pose it to the board.

Thanks.
Perhaps we can all get our captains license. Or at the very least know what to expect on a test.

SD

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
The answer is 42.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by skipperdude

The book is divided into sections. It is set up so that the answer is given as a teaching method with site and page for the definition. There is rules of the road, Deck general, Navigation and so forth. I don't have it with me now but on Monday.
I will find the question and pose it to the board.

Thanks.
Perhaps we can all get our captains license. Or at the very least know what to expect on a test.

SD

Ooooops..meant to say answer 4 not 3....in that post.

Feel free to email me anytime you get into a quandary on a question....they are supposed to trap you by using key words...often two answers you can throw out right away because they contain wording that makes them wrong by definition (like in my examples). The the question usually contains a key word that if you skip over it...the last two answers seem right but go back and pick apart the question for key words like inland, international, down bound, etc..etc.

When answering these rules questions ALWAYS ascertain where the question put YOU...

1. Waters (inland, Intern., Western Rivers, etc)
2. Specifics (narrow channel, TSS, etc)
3. Special circumstances (RAM, CBD, type of vsl pecking order, etc)
4. In sight, not in sight....
and look for the key words that are in the definitions of all above...

[Rambler]

You need to know enough about the laws to pass the test, and enough about reality to stay alive. This is true whether you're on a boat, an airplane, in a car, truck, train, walking in the deep woods, or on 3rd street. "Here's what the law says." is great. Applying it to reality varies with every situation.

[Art]

Originally Posted by Rambler

You need to know enough about the laws to pass the test, and enough about reality to stay alive. This is true whether you're on a boat, an airplane, in a car, truck, train, walking in the deep woods, or on 3rd street. "Here's what the law says." is great. Applying it to reality varies with every situation.

Profoundly True!

[Giggitoni]

Originally Posted by rwidman

One more thing - how many folks here display an anchor ball when anchored during the day? It's in the rulebook.

I do! Insurance companies and attorneys scare me...

[Marin]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Answer one CAN"T be right cause the other vessel isn't the stand on vessel (the way the question is worded)

Why? The vessel crossing is coming from my starboard side. Under normal circumstances that would make it the stand-on vessel. Not saying it has to be in this case as I don't know all the nuances in the Colregs. But I don't see anything in the example wording that says otherwise.

I understand the bit about having to stay in the channel in order to navigate which makes the vessel in the channel the stand-on vessel. But does that apply regardless of anything else? If I am in my GB and I need to stay in the channel while going up the Swinomish Slough, for example, and another boat starts crossing in front of me from my starboard side, say coming out in one of the wider spots along the slough, am I the stand-on vessel simply by virtue of needing to be in the channel even though it is no problem for me to slow down or even stop in that situation?

[Marin]

Originally Posted by Giggitoni

I do! Insurance companies and attorneys scare me...

Good point. What do you use for the ball?

[skipperdude]

I made one from a Styrofoam ball.
Sprayed it with black spray paint.
It shrank about 1/3 size from the spray.

Sd

[RickB]

Originally Posted by rwidman

One more thing - how many folks here display an anchor ball when anchored during the day? It's in the rulebook.

More to the point, what are the exceptions to that requirement?

The exceptions are equally, if not more, important than the singular interpretation of the rule book. If you don't know the exceptions you don't know the rule book and are just as much a problem as a guy who needs the book to figure out what to do as time is running out.