Rudders are seized!!!

[Comodave]

You would also need a silver half cell and the knowledge on how to use it to determine anything. Get a Certified Marine Electrician, not just a guy in the yard that does electrical work. Then you stand a chance of getting someone knowledgeable.

 

[Steve91T]

Ok. Disconnected the starboard rudder and had my wife move the wheel. We were able to get the port rudder free. At least it was freeing up with the ram. I could tell there was a lot of force on it but it got better. So I connected to the starboard again and it would not budge. And I realized the top plate that’s twisted...actually broke both of the long bolts. One lifted right out. The other is jammed. I soaked with penetrating oil. I can’t beat on anything tonight. I was informed that I’m going to be in serious trouble if I wake these kids up.

I’m bummed.

 

[Comodave]

Well, better to discover it at the dock before you got underway than later. That is going to be quite a bit more work now. Good luck.

 

[BandB]

Thought so. Quick question, is this something I can poke around with a multimeter and at least get an idea of what’s going on?

You can poke all you want but you'd likely be far better getting a professional poker. After all, you were in charge of the poking when it got into this condition.

 

[mvweebles]

That bolt has a lot of crevice corrosion. Odd as its not a wet install - that bolt is entirely inside the boat. Id be regretting ever touching the damn thing, but comodave is right about better being at the dock.

I reiterate I'm not the best electrician, but my gut tells me there's something going on and would want to eliminate that as a source. I would tackle that in parallel. Good marine electricians are difficult to find and perhaps the most expensive of the trades, but that's because they typically work fast.

I hope someone chimes in with a magic bullet but my sense is this boat needs to be hauled. Given how simple the assembly is in a rudder post, it's really hard to imagine they seized, but clearly they did.

Wish I could offer more encouragement.

Peter

 

[angus99]

Ok. Disconnected the starboard rudder and had my wife move the wheel. We were able to get the port rudder free. At least it was freeing up with the ram. I could tell there was a lot of force on it but it got better. So I connected to the starboard again and it would not budge. And I realized the top plate that’s twisted...actually broke both of the long bolts. One lifted right out. The other is jammed. I soaked with penetrating oil. I can’t beat on anything tonight. I was informed that I’m going to be in serious trouble if I wake these kids up.

I’m bummed.

Sorry for your troubles. But I’m not sure this is a job for a BFH while the boat’s in the water.

 

[Steve91T]

Sorry for your troubles. But I’m not sure this is a job for a BFH while the boat’s in the water.

I was thinking the same thing. I’ll give it some love taps and see if I can break it loose. But I really don’t want to cause an emergency.

 

[SteveK]

Haul it,clean bottom and free/repair the rudder under safe conditions. One rudder should get it to the haul out?

 

[C lectric]

You have reached the point that you need some help, good help.
I agree about the marine electrician with a specialty in corrosion issues.

The corrosion , verdegris , may have been made worse by lousy maintenance practices or lack of by the previous owner.

Also it is time to get the boat pulled onto land. The serious hardware MAY be good with a clean up but those broken bolts could turn into a serious problem.
But you won't really know untill all is pulled apart.

You can't do that in the water.

 

[Comodave]

Agree that you will probably need to haul it and pull the rudder stuffing box out of the boat in order to get the broken bolts out of the box. It will be a lot of fun getting them out, maybe a machine shop? While you are at it I would make sure the other one isn’t almost as bad as this one.

 

[Steve91T]

I’ve got a call into a highly referred mechanic. I’ve heard he’s super busy, which is a good thing.

We’re heading home tomorrow so I’ll make some calls tomorrow and see who can haul it.

So check out my cutlass bearings. I know they weren’t that bad.

So I have a couple of newbie questions. Why are there grounding straps and where are they supposed to ground to?

Why is there a metal hard line near the cutlass? Water line?

Is a stray current running through the ground wires or elsewhere? How does that happen? Broken wire somewhere?

I hate paying people to do work about something I’m clueless about. I just like to at least have a half idea what’s going on.

 

[moparharn]

Given the circumstances I would want to check every through hull once it is pulled. Sea cocks, shafts, intakes, etc. Stem to stern. You might also want to be certain your driveline and genset have not been impacted as well. The marine electrician should be able to point fingers in any problem directions. Good luck and good catch.

 

[rgano]

I’ve got a call into a highly referred mechanic. I’ve heard he’s super busy, which is a good thing.

We’re heading home tomorrow so I’ll make some calls tomorrow and see who can haul it.

So check out my cutlass bearings. I know they weren’t that bad.

So I have a couple of newbie questions. Why are there grounding straps and where are they supposed to ground to?

Why is there a metal hard line near the cutlass? Water line?

Is a stray current running through the ground wires or elsewhere? How does that happen? Broken wire somewhere?

I hate paying people to do work about something I’m clueless about. I just like to at least have a half idea what’s going on.

You need to get yourself educated on marine bonding, and the best I can do to help with that is to tell you to read this:

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/BondingSystems138_05.pdf

 

[Steve91T]

You need to get yourself educated on marine bonding, and the best I can do to help with that is to tell you to read this:

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/BondingSystems138_05.pdf

Oh that’s perfect. Exactly what I need. Thank you.

 

[mvweebles]

I’ve got a call into a highly referred mechanic. I’ve heard he’s super busy, which is a good thing.

We’re heading home tomorrow so I’ll make some calls tomorrow and see who can haul it.

So check out my cutlass bearings. I know they weren’t that bad.

So I have a couple of newbie questions. Why are there grounding straps and where are they supposed to ground to?

Why is there a metal hard line near the cutlass? Water line?

Is a stray current running through the ground wires or elsewhere? How does that happen? Broken wire somewhere?

I hate paying people to do work about something I’m clueless about. I just like to at least have a half idea what’s going on.

Picture is if another stuffing box - this one for your prop shaft. Looks like it's tightened all the way down. These can be repacked in the water but I agree with others. Time to haul and have everything checked. That bolt you showed this morning was concerning.

The rudder stuffing box may be off the shelf Buck Algonquin or similar. Would be better and less expensive to replace vs a machine shop.

Peter

 

[BandB]

I’ve got a call into a highly referred mechanic. I’ve heard he’s super busy, which is a good thing.

We’re heading home tomorrow so I’ll make some calls tomorrow and see who can haul it.

So check out my cutlass bearings. I know they weren’t that bad.

So I have a couple of newbie questions. Why are there grounding straps and where are they supposed to ground to?

Why is there a metal hard line near the cutlass? Water line?

Is a stray current running through the ground wires or elsewhere? How does that happen? Broken wire somewhere?

I hate paying people to do work about something I’m clueless about. I just like to at least have a half idea what’s going on.

Highly referred mechanic not enough. You need a marine electrician as well.

 

[Comodave]

Highly referred mechanic not enough. You need a marine electrician as well.

+++1. But make sure he/she is well versed in corrosion. And be there when the work is going on and watch and learn what is happening.

 

[Sealife]

ABYC has a cert for corrosion which is very thorough. I’d start my search there.

 

[C lectric]

I am going to make a suggestion. This won't help on the rudder shaft stuffing boxes but will on the propeller shaft stuffing boxes.

ALL stuffing boxes throw water. The water can be anywhere from a visible spray to a mist fine enough it is not visible.
That spray will travel and cause rusting of steel parts nearby unless contained.

I made a simple cover of a beater fender that I cut up to suit my stuffing box.
Get one that is just large enough to go mostly or fully around the stuffing box and the log hose [usually].
Cut the ear off one end large enough for the shaft to exit without rubbing too much. Estimate the length of the fender +1"-2" needed so be secured to the solid part of the stuffing with a Tridon or similar worm gear clamp. Cut the rest of the fender away.

Then split the part you want lengthwise between the new end and the shaft hole. Wrap that around the stuffing box so the cut hose extends about 1" beyond the shaft entry into the stuffing box. If need be you may need to trim the split so it stays open a bit. The split should be DOWN so water will drop out into the bilge.

This way the water will NOT be able to travel but get caught and collected to drip into the bilge.

Then use the Tridon clamp to secure the fender piece lightly. THis does not have to be held tightly at all, just enough so it does not fall off or rotate.

I keep my nut wrench nearby in a wee holder I cobbled so when an adjustment is needed the tool is close at hand.

This mickey mouse detail stopped the rusting of my mounting brackets, the back end of the gearbox and some other bits.

 

[mvweebles]

Highly referred mechanic not enough. You need a marine electrician as well.

Agreed. But a good mechanic will know their limits, and will likely know the best person for the job

 

[Steve91T]

Ok found out more pieces to the puzzle. So I have realized the engine batteries won’t produce more than 10.5 volts. House batteries are now fully charged but when trying start any of the 3 engines it acts like it’s a very weak battery....will hardly roll over. So I used the jump box from autozone and got the starboard engine started. All the voltages looked great now that the altinator was online. Port engine still wouldn’t start. I couldn’t tell if it was rolling over or not since I couldn’t hear it but I felt like it wasn’t. I then fire up the genny. Got it warmed up and switched from shore to gen and loaded it with ac. Then I tried to start port main. It instantly killed the genny. I went into the engine room and it had a faint electrical smell although I couldn’t find any evidence. I decided to try one more time this time with me watching. I started the gen and this time had my wife start the port main. Once again the generator died and the main never even rolled over. What’s scary is that we were hooked up to shore power but I was on generator power and somehow we tripped the shore breaker. It reset and we are back to normal but I’m not trying anything else until I get an electrician onboard. Something is bad wrong.

Really crazy that last time I was here (just realized it’s been 2 months) we changed the oil, ran the engines and worked on several other things (nothing electrical). The only reason we didn’t run it was because we ran out of time and we thought we’d be back in 2 weeks.

Some wire or something is not doing it’s job.

Even though I know this is going to be expensive, I know it needs to be done and will be worth the cost. And we still had a really great time. There are much worse things I could be doing. Spending the weekend on the boat with the family is priceless.

 

[Steve91T]

Forgot the non corrosive pics. This makes it so worth it.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 91. Post #52...THE BEST!!!!

 

[Comodave]

Glad the kids enjoy the boat.

 

[rgano]

Holy crow! What a nightmare scenario. Time to disconnect all the batteries and shut down the charger before you end up with a fire. Then hand over hand your way along the positive cables from all three starters to the batteries and then the same for the negatives looking for issues like worn insulation and corroded/loose connections. Then the AC system clearly needs some love as there is apparently a short between it and your DC system. Time for the experts.

 

[Flyguy1967]

Holy crow! What a nightmare scenario. Time to disconnect all the batteries and shut down the charger before you end up with a fire. Then hand over hand your way along the positive cables from all three starters to the batteries and then the same for the negatives looking for issues like worn insulation and corroded/loose connections. Then the AC system clearly needs some love as there is apparently a short between it and your DC system. Time for the experts.

Agreed!

 

[Simi 60]

given the circumstances i would want to check every through hull once it is pulled. Sea cocks, shafts, intakes, etc. Stem to stern. You might also want to be certain your driveline and genset have not been impacted as well. The marine electrician should be able to point fingers in any problem directions. Good luck and good catch.

this. ^^^^^^^

Good chance through hulls will be chewed.

 

[slowgoesit]

First thing I would do do before you bring in any hired help is to look over the battery wires. Specifically check where the ground is attached to the boat, at engine, etc. Take it off, inspect it, look for clean mating surface, look at the connector, AND look at the wire for any verdigris whatsover. Repeat on all other connectors. Clean, or better yet, replace as necessary.
You batteries are probably toast if they went down to flat for a while. That is probably your immediate starting problem. But I'd look at connections soonest. Good luck!