Repair of Fire Damaged Hull

[Sna]

Looking for opinions though I think I know what they will be. There is a 1980s era Tollycraft 43 that suffered an electrical fire last year. Here’s a write up of the fire:

https://48north.com/news/theres-a-fire-in-the-marina/

This boat is potentially for sale at roughly 20-25% of its retail value (140-160k) if it weren’t damaged. Setting aside the economic viability of a total repair (needs almost complete electrical, several new windows, interior work, I’m most interested in thoughts on the hull repair. I’ve tried to document the damaged in the attached image. High level, there’s a 3x5 foot(ish) area where the resin and glass are damaged. In some places almost all the way through. Most concerning to me is some of the areas of repair are quite difficult to access (see cross section diagram attached).

Any thoughts? Is the repair even feasible leaving any room for the additional repairs?

 

[BandB]

Looking for opinions though I think I know what they will be. There is a 1980s era Tollycraft 43 that suffered an electrical fire last year. Here’s a write up of the fire:

https://48north.com/news/theres-a-fire-in-the-marina/

This boat is potentially for sale at roughly 20-25% of its retail value (140-160k) if it weren’t damaged. Setting aside the economic viability of a total repair (needs almost complete electrical, several new windows, interior work, I’m most interested in thoughts on the hull repair. I’ve tried to document the damaged in the attached image. High level, there’s a 3x5 foot(ish) area where the resin and glass are damaged. In some places almost all the way through. Most concerning to me is some of the areas of repair are quite difficult to access (see cross section diagram attached).

Any thoughts? Is the repair even feasible leaving any room for the additional repairs?

If you own a boatyard and have an offseason with your workers standing around with no work, then it's feasible. Otherwise, I wouldn't go near it.

I know of two or three long time yard owners who do things like this. I say two or three as the third one stopped because he found he no longer had a period of no work due to major work done on customer boats.

I don't think an individual asking these questions can have any idea what they're really getting into. The professionals are often surprised, but if you have labor you're paying anyway, then it's ok. Then there's the worst part is repairing to the best of your ability and the boat still not riding and performing right. Again, yards might sell those off "as is" or as "salvage" boats, but you're stuck. Handling salvage boats isn't an easy thing to do.

Therefore, no way would I value the boat at $30-40k or would I pay that for it. I wouldn't buy it simply lacking the required expertise, but a typical salvage price would be more in the area of half that, perhaps $15-20k.

 

[twistedtree]

I expect the repairs will cost more than the boat is worth, so I wouldn’t pay anything for it. And you will have a year or two or three of misery repairing before you can go boating. So no savings, plus years of torture, and you are assuming all the risk. Buying a working boat seems like a much better idea

 

[jungpeter]

Hi Sna,

I absolutely agree with both parties that have previously responded. RUN, FORREST, RUN....

This boat has absolutely NO value, other than (perhaps) scrap value of the running gear and a few associated bits and pieces.

If the marine professionals won't touch it (i.e. it's been declared salvage) then a DIY guy shouldn't even THINK about it. Even if the insurance company gave you the boat for free, it would soon become the most expensive boat you'll ever own.

Regards,

Pete

 

[tiltrider1]

I'm pretty sure this boat has a salvage title but I could be wrong. Boats like this are usually sold for their running gear.

That said, a 1980 era Tollycraft is not worth $140,000 to $160,000. What this boat is worth depends on what the engines are and their condition. If it is a gas boat then it is worth less than nothing. Now if it comes with a good set of diesels then the boat has some value as a drive train donner. It also has some value as a fixer upper in the right hands. How do you know if you are right for this project? You already know how you will attack the wiring portion, You already know how to deal with the window and you already have a plan on how to scab in a glass repair.

These pictures don't scare me. What I don't know is how does the boat smell? What is the water damage? What systems are damage beyond repair?

Even a DYI is not going to be able to make a pretty repair and get his money out. An inferior repair, then used as an ugly liveaboard and you might come out money ahead, if you know what your are doing.

 

[SoWhat]

I think your estimate of retail value is very high and somewhat irrelevant in any case. The question might be better formed as If I buy a salvage boat for X and repair it for Y, will the value then be X + Y or higher.

Not necessarily. It is now a salvage boat. You may not recoup Y. So it can't be properly evaluated in purely economic terms.
It might make sense if you take it on a s a project boat. You may not have $70K to spend on a 40 ft boat but you may have the $15K initial cost and the $10K in DIY repairs. Two years later you may end up with a nice 43' boat for a $25K investment.

It all depends upon your skill level with fiberglass. It is a major repair but certainly doable if you give up every weekend for the next 2 years. Rewiring could easily take another DIY year.
Every boatyard has a few project boats for sale at dirt cheap prices. Most people prefer cosmetic repairs because they can use the boat while upgrading.

My opinion - if you have $25K look for a boat that needs cosmetic repairs, not major structural damage.

 

[Tolly Roger]

I would suggest you contact Everett Yacht Sales (if you haven't already). I think they have some detail on that boat. Ask to talk to Steve Ditto or Scott Fultz tel:425-259-5432

 

[Sna]

I would suggest you contact Everett Yacht Sales (if you haven't already). I think they have some detail on that boat. Ask to talk to Steve Ditto or Scott Fultz tel:425-259-5432

Thanks for all the replies. And I’ve spoken to Steve about it.

The major areas of repair are:

- Fiberglass work
- New wiring
- Removing smells
- Windows
- Some woodwork inside

I wouldn’t DIY any of that work. I would want it done by professionals with lots of documentation.

Wiring, glass, woodwork are not cheap but not a ton of unknowns (assuming pretty much a full rewrite). The glass work is what has big unknowns. I just don’t see how glass that far gone can be fixed without cutting out big portions of for no other reason than you can’t physically access the worst burnt portions.

If I knew I was going to get a very updated, seaworthy boat I might be willing to sink 75-100k but I fear the glasswork, to be done right, might blow that figure up. And you never know what else you find and get nickeled and dimed to death. Feels full of risk.

As for the value of a 1980s 43 Tolly. A gasser just sold in 3 days for 125k w/ multiple offers here. I think we might have a boat bubble going on.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

The market is literally flooded with damaged boats. Hurricane damage, sinking and of course fires.

Don't let ANYONE tell you the value of this boat when totally restored.

Right now the value is so close to $0 that it ain't even funny.

pete

 

[Portage_Bay]

As for the value of a 1980s 43 Tolly. A gasser just sold in 3 days for 125k w/ multiple offers here. I think we might have a boat bubble going on.

According to a friend who is a boat broker yes we have a boat bubble going on. It will burst some day, all bubbles do. 3 yrs ago you could not have given that boat away and a good well found Tolly gasser would go for about the asking price of this boat.

 

[captDJ]

I agree with all who said, run away!

There are many good used boats at fair prices where you could get on the water summer 2021 instead of summer 2025.

A boat is worth its current state, not what it was worth 1 year ago or it’s assumed after repair value. It takes an unbelievable amount of time and money and knowledge to replace a fire damaged anything, run fast, run now.

Another false assumption, boats don’t have salvage titles because they do not have titles. Bank told me my boat was salvaged when engine failed and could not be replace for less than the insurance value (Boat US), didn’t matter to me as I repowered w/2 6BTA’s and worth more to me than I could find in BucBoat.

 

[BandB]

Another false assumption, boats don’t have salvage titles because they do not have titles. .

Boats do have titles in two forms. Either a title in the state they're registered or a CG Certificate of Documentation which is a title itself. Has all the attributes of one and if cancelled must generally be converted into a state title.

Now still doesn't mean they have salvage titles. Perhaps some states do such, but I'm not aware of them on boats. They have the same as generally though in that the insurance industry knows they are salvage.

 

[captDJ]

I think there is a lot of confusion perpetrated by boat financing and boat insurance companies, I have owned boats in Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia and Florida. Yes they have to be registered but not “titled” in the automotive sense.

If a boat is not registered with a state it can, under certain conditions, be documented (registered) with the USCG.

Unlike a motor vehicle, damages to a boat do not have a official paper trail like a salvage title.

Otherwise major damage considered by one insurance company, could not be insured post repairs. One of the purposes of a marine survey.

 

[rgano]

The boat is worthless. Engines, maybe.

 

[slowgoesit]

The major areas of repair are:

- Fiberglass work
- New wiring
- Removing smells
- Windows
- Some woodwork inside

I wouldn’t DIY any of that work. I would want it done by professionals with lots of documentation.
If I knew I was going to get a very updated, seaworthy boat I might be willing to sink 75-100k but I fear the glasswork, to be done right, might blow that figure up. And you never know what else you find and get nickeled and dimed to death. Feels full of risk.

Some comments:

1. You wouldn't do it yourself
2. You want professionals w/ lots of documentation
3. willing to sink 75k to 100k into it
4. We're in a boat selling bubble right now.

1. No savings from "labor of love" because you're hiring out work
2. professionals won't do a lot of "documentation" unless you PAY for it (more expense)
3. I think your estimate is low, especially at the going hourly rate of professionals.
4. In a year or two, after a year or two or yard bills, and other costs, the bubble will probably have already burst . . . any you'll have $200+k into a boat that is worth maybe $80k . . . you'd best REALLY love the boat and plan on keeping it forever!

One other item, if whoever owns the boat right now can't end up finding a buyer, they will have to PAY someone to scrap it out and dispose of 40+ feet of fiberglass hull, they MIGHT break even on the cost of disposal if the drive train is salvageable. (How was the fire put out? Water ingestion into engines?) Offer them $5k so they won't have to PAY to have it disposed of . . . or better yet. . . . .

"Run Forrest, Run!"

 

[Comodave]

If you were going to do all the work yourself then MAYBE it could work out financially, however if you are going to pay to have the work done then you will loose your bottom, to put it nicely. There will be many hundreds of billable hours and maybe more than a thousand at $100+ per hour. It will never work unless you do it yourself and even then it may be a loosing proposition. As said above “Run Forest, Run” but run faster...

 

[ghost]

Tolly’s do have significant value and have been in demand lately and consistently over the years. They have been a pretty safe investment. If you want an estimate on the glasswork, the only outfit I would consider is Pacific Fiberglass. Yes, they could do it. No idea if cost effective. Windows for the whole boat is about 15k. Wiring....yikes, but pretty doable, nothing rocket science there, maybe 20k plus more for electronics. The smoky interior would be what troubles me the most. Headliners, upholstery and teak ply add up quickly. Also take into account, that given the age, the moment you pull anything apart, new fuel tanks etc..you are going to find “something” and wind up renewing the whole thing. I wish I could tell you how many hours I have into renewing the galley, cabin, head of my equal in age 48. The boat could well come out amazing and would command a premium price, but most people significantly underestimate cost. Don’t think it will be a slam dunk. You would likely get your target price, but the cost would be more than you think.

 

[BandB]

I think there is a lot of confusion perpetrated by boat financing and boat insurance companies, I have owned boats in Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia and Florida. Yes they have to be registered but not “titled” in the automotive sense.

If a boat is not registered with a state it can, under certain conditions, be documented (registered) with the USCG.

Unlike a motor vehicle, damages to a boat do not have a official paper trail like a salvage title.

Otherwise major damage considered by one insurance company, could not be insured post repairs. One of the purposes of a marine survey.

Unless documented, boats in all the states you mentioned except Georgia are required to be titled. Full paper trail, but no such thing as a salvage title.

 

[fgarriso]

Scope creap is always the problem with these projects. It is always bigger job than it looks, and where do you stop at.

 

[tiltrider1]

Washington state does not issue a salvage title. However, insurance companies report totals to the state. At that point you can not get a registration until the vehicle/vessel is reinspected at which time a branded title is reissued.

Now I don’t know how this works with documented vessels but around here everyone seems to know when a boat is a rebuild.

 

[rslifkin]

Unless documented, boats in all the states you mentioned except Georgia are required to be titled. Full paper trail, but no such thing as a salvage title.

It depends a bit on age. Some states only title to a certain age, beyond that you just get a transferable registration. I know both NY and CT do that.