Remove flybridge, add solar

[Nomad Willy]

Boat looks more like a serious vessel w/o the FB.

 

[Dashash]

You seem bent on the most economical travel possible fuel-wise while engaging in a type of boating where the universal claim seems to be that fuel is the least part of expenses.

Completely valid!

And you're right, the view inside can be restrictive.

 

[Mako]

@Dash, first of all if you decide to do this, then make sure to build up a big brow to protect the panels from wind and to hide them as they are quite ugly and distracting from the side. Roughly I'd make the brow about 6" - 8" high in the front, then tapering in a smooth curve to just slightly higher than the top of the panels at the aft end.


However, your boat will have no covered outdoor space. You can't live out in the sun for very long. Even if you don't like flybridges (personally I don't) at least it provides a semblance of a covered patio to enjoy the world.


If you add a canvas retractable bimini top over your small aft deck it is going to look really weird, if that's important to you.


Keep sketching and trying these various options.

 

[Dashash]

However, your boat will have no covered outdoor space. You can't live out in the sun for very long. Even if you don't like flybridges (personally I don't) at least it provides a semblance of a covered patio to enjoy the world.

Thanks. I've thought about covered outdoor space. The aft deck would HAVE to be covered, for sure. My idea was to hang a sun-shade from the boom. In addition (and unrelated to sun protection), I'd add stanchions and wind deflector panels around the aft deck. I actually modified a picture of "Islander", a different Bristol 42, to have no fly bridge. Islander has a picnic table and protected lounge area on the aft deck.

And you all are going to laugh at me for saying this, but I haven't entirely ruled out operating the boat from the aft deck. I can see over the main salon roof from the aft deck easily (if there was no FB). My boat can be steered from my cell phone or a tablet (pypilot and opencpn). I would just need to instrument the mechanical throttle controls and transmissions so they can be controlled remotely. Or just deal with having to run inside if I needed to change an engine setting. Of course, this mode of operation would be on long transits with low traffic density in calm weather.

 

[OldDan1943]

I really appreciate this message. I've owned this boat for 2 1/2 years and have it set-up almost perfectly for liveaboard usage. Of course, there are MANY other boats I'd rather have, namely: Krogen 48 Whaleback, Krogen 42, Nordhavn 46, Diesel Duck 462, to name a few. I'm uneasy about spending that kind of money at this point in my life though (I'm younger). They're 4-10x what I paid for my current boat. I've looked strongly at the Pilgrim 40s. I like the style, the hull shape, the efficiency, etc. But even a Pilgrim 40 is around an $80k premium over what I paid for my Bristol.

So all that to say, I'm still in the exploration phase. That means I'm spending a lot of time with Microsoft Paint and seeing if I can live with how the boat would look. If I decide to remove it, I'd convert the aft deck to the main lounge area, so that alleviates the socializing/entertaining issue some. I'll also spend the next few months driving exclusively from inside. These things should help inform the decision.

Oh, about the solar bimini - I'm just not comfortable putting so much weight that high up. Even a bimini over the aft deck isn't too appealing to me. But I haven't ruled this idea out...

Your boat looks better w/o the flybridge. It look 'meaner" and more seaworthy.
If I were to have my boat forever, I'd figure out a wat to remove the stack.

 

[rslifkin]

Thanks. I've thought about covered outdoor space. The aft deck would HAVE to be covered, for sure. My idea was to hang a sun-shade from the boom. In addition (and unrelated to sun protection), I'd add stanchions and wind deflector panels around the aft deck. I actually modified a picture of "Islander", a different Bristol 42, to have no fly bridge. Islander has a picnic table and protected lounge area on the aft deck.

And you all are going to laugh at me for saying this, but I haven't entirely ruled out operating the boat from the aft deck. I can see over the main salon roof from the aft deck easily (if there was no FB). My boat can be steered from my cell phone or a tablet (pypilot and opencpn). I would just need to instrument the mechanical throttle controls and transmissions so they can be controlled remotely. Or just deal with having to run inside if I needed to change an engine setting. Of course, this mode of operation would be on long transits with low traffic density in calm weather.

You could potentially just move the flybridge controls back there.

 

[Patrick4002]

solar power optimized

Hello im Patrick and we have a trader 54 i put my after sundeck and the sides of my gangway roof full of solar panels, i also put 3 on the front deck
so i get a 3400w array

one of the tings is that all panel are not in the same flat space.
to get a better preformes i splt the pannels in 3 groups :
1 after the mast, 1 before the mast and 1 on the front deck
all with there inverter, you also need a invertor group controlers
to get all the invertors working together

form my 3400w array i get in the summer for 4h max 2800w somtime a small peak to 3200w but that is a exeption.

this year i put on each panel a tigo optimizer with give me app, 15% more output from less loss during shades

i just look at my statistics (started in november) and the best preformance
in november was 1 day with 4kw the other days has a averidge of 2,8kw

8 months of the year i have averidge 6kw a day

sorry for the bad writen englisch

if you want more info or a view of or system send a pb i can do a video call with whasapp or fb

Best regards
Patrick

 

[SteveK]

There must be 3 feet of deck aft. Probably lose 10" installing the wheel. Then you will be driving from the back walking side to side to see where you are going, unable to see past the main cabin where there is a functional helm station.
Removing a perfectly good flybridge to install solar.
Then you will install a roof, canvass most likely 6'? high. The lines sure will be complimentary. Salloon roof, aft cabin lower roof and then another higher roof.

Yup, I can see dozens copying the idea.
To avoid any misunderstanding, I think you have lost it. IMHO

 

[Slowmo]

Others have mentioned the fact that the wattage is specified under ideal conditions. Also realize that solar panels degrade slowly. Whatever you do make sure you have some way to clean them. Dust, dirt, and salt crystals scatter the photons which can significantly reduce efficiency.

I'm not sure what the FB of your boat weighs. Removing it may noticeably affect the roll characteristics. While the FB may not be that heavy, it does have a long lever arm and I'm sure this was accounted for by the naval architect. Removing that could result in a snap roll such as happens in a sailboat that has no mast. That isn't a good thing.

 

[markpierce]

We don't need no stinkin' flybridge.

 

[Dashash]

There must be 3 feet of deck aft. Probably lose 10" installing the wheel. Then you will be driving from the back walking side to side to see where you are going, unable to see past the main cabin where there is a functional helm station.
Removing a perfectly good flybridge to install solar.
Then you will install a roof, canvass most likely 6'? high. The lines sure will be complimentary. Salloon roof, aft cabin lower roof and then another higher roof.

Yup, I can see dozens copying the idea.
To avoid any misunderstanding, I think you have lost it. IMHO

Haha, point taken. But just for clarification, the the aft deck is 9 1/2 feet long, but even so, I would never install a wheel and controls back there. But as I said, I can see over the roof from the back, so in terms of being able to keep a "lookout" while positioned on the aft deck, not a problem. And I know you're just poking, but it wouldn't be my intent to persuade others to follow suit with their own boats!

 

[Dashash]

I should mention again, this boat has a similar layout to what we're talking about here. Of course, really different lines (and dang is it beautiful).

 

[Dashash]

We don't need no stinkin' flybridge.

Looking good! Where does company socialize outdoors? Is there a natural gathering area?

 

[Miss Tee]

Here in Southern Florida Middle Keys. To loose a FB is great if you do not like to shovel snow off it.

95% of all happy hours are on the FB. It's your penthouse...

We are converting our rear Bimini to a solar array and have 2 banks. 2 separately controlled arrays.

One for the 6 AGM house cells
One for the 3 8D engine cells.
With a crossover relay for both.

As always the Honda Genny in case of overcast days when they come.

Edit: Just added a new 500w wind turbine to the mix. Completely off grid. Anyone need a Honda genny...

 

[Dashash]

Nice!!! That's awesome!

 

[SteveK]

I should mention again, this boat has a similar layout to what we're talking about here. Of course, really different lines (and dang is it beautiful).

OK, aft deck above aft cabin. The pictures you attached make sense now to what you meant to say.
$10-15K? for that conversion is not worth it for me to succeed in having a place to mount solar panels

 

[Dashash]

OK, aft deck above aft cabin. The pictures you attached make sense now to what you meant to say.
$10-15K? for that conversion is not worth it for me to succeed in having a place to mount solar panels

I think the correct term should have been "poop deck". Or a deck above an aft cabin.

$10-15k? About right, I suppose, but that's including all the hardware. 2kW of solar: ~$2k. 13kWh of LiFePO4: $6500. Charge controller: ~$600. Besides that, a bunch of fiberglassing materials, paint and sandpaper, and many hours of labor by yours truly.

A Northern Lights generator: ~$10k, plus fuel usage and mx through lifetime. This is where the rubber meets the road for me. I struggle to get parts for my 30-40 year old Onan/Kubota. It's a 14cuft block in the engine room that could be used for tool or spare parts storage. But in order to replace a generator with solar, I think you need at least a 2kW array, and even that will only allow operation of a single air con for a few hours each day to still be neutral on power budget. If you're moving the boat each day though, and run for at least 4-6 hours, the battery bank, solar, and alternator system allows for all air con units to be run nightly for 2-3 hours (albeit with a depleted battery bank in the morning). I believe a 2kW array can replace a generator if done right (and the vessel is in the right geographic location). That's sort of where my thinking is. It's more than just a desire to just add a little bit of solar to my system. It's a gen replacement.

 

[Kintala]

I will surely miss the flybridge - it's where all the guests congregate when we're underway, but I'm willing to make the sacrifice for added energy independence, lower C.G., and easier fitting of headsail and paravanes.

I absolutely love the look of trawlers without the flybridge - what my husband and I affectionately call "The Shower Cap." But you're right about the guest congregation. We have a sedan model and you can't sit in the cockpit underway because the low pressure area sucks the exhaust into it and carbon monoxide poisoning becomes a real issue. There's a MT 38 in our marina that took his off and did exactly what you're proposing and it's a sweet deal. Maybe some day when we get too old to do the ladder to the flybridge we'll bite the bullet and do it.

 

[Dashash]

I absolutely love the look of trawlers without the flybridge - what my husband and I affectionately call "The Shower Cap." But you're right about the guest congregation. We have a sedan model and you can't sit in the cockpit underway because the low pressure area sucks the exhaust into it and carbon monoxide poisoning becomes a real issue. There's a MT 38 in our marina that took his off and did exactly what you're proposing and it's a sweet deal. Maybe some day when we get too old to do the ladder to the flybridge we'll bite the bullet and do it.

Thank you for the advice and perspective.

 

[Insequent]

Snip.....

But in order to replace a generator with solar, I think you need at least a 2kW array, and even that will only allow operation of a single air con for a few hours each day to still be neutral on power budget. If you're moving the boat each day though, and run for at least 4-6 hours, the battery bank, solar, and alternator system allows for all air con units to be run nightly for 2-3 hours (albeit with a depleted battery bank in the morning). I believe a 2kW array can replace a generator if done right (and the vessel is in the right geographic location). That's sort of where my thinking is. It's more than just a desire to just add a little bit of solar to my system. It's a gen replacement.

Back in 2013 I did the generator replacement thing. Removed a 7.5kW Onan and installed 1920W solar (7 x260W Suniva panels) along with 1284Ah house bank @ 12V. In 2016 I did a rework of the solar to reduce shading issues, going with 6 x 345 Sunpower panels (higher efficiency panels). Late last year I replaced the house bank, going to 1700Ah @ 12V. A week or so ago I finished another panel mod, relocating existing panels slightly to fit 2 additional panels, and mounting 4 of the panels on SS drawer slides to further limit shading at start and end of day. I also changed from 2 controllers having 3 panels each, to 4 controllers each having 2 panels. So I now have 2740W in total.

To touch on an earlier post, series connection is very bad when shaded, but parallel connected panels still suffer from shading, and its a much greater effect than just the shaded panel or part of panel ! I think that's because the MPPT has to lower voltage across all in that circuit if there is shading.

I spend anything from 100 -200 nights a year at anchor. While my former house bank was OK I did find myself moving after a few days to allow the 2 x 200A alternators to recover the bank's SOC during winter or if it was a bit cloudy. Or fire up the Honda portable. Now I think I have enough wattage and bank capacity to stay in one place almost indefinitely.

BUT for hot water I have engine heat loop plus a loop on the Webasto hydronic heating circuit. And I do not have aircon.

I think your plans are OK as far as power is concerned although IMO you are being way too optimistic to expect much aircon or water heating from the proposed solar wattage & house bank.

Overall IMO you will be better off buying a different boat than doing the flybridge removal and associated work.

 

[Dashash]

Back in 2013 I did the generator replacement thing. Removed a 7.5kW Onan and installed 1920W solar (7 x260W Suniva panels) along with 1284Ah house bank @ 12V. In 2016 I did a rework of the solar to reduce shading issues, going with 6 x 345 Sunpower panels (higher efficiency panels). Late last year I replaced the house bank, going to 1700Ah @ 12V. A week or so ago I finished another panel mod, relocating existing panels slightly to fit 2 additional panels, and mounting 4 of the panels on SS drawer slides to further limit shading at start and end of day. I also changed from 2 controllers having 3 panels each, to 4 controllers each having 2 panels. So I now have 2740W in total.

To touch on an earlier post, series connection is very bad when shaded, but parallel connected panels still suffer from shading, and its a much greater effect than just the shaded panel or part of panel ! I think that's because the MPPT has to lower voltage across all in that circuit if there is shading.

I spend anything from 100 -200 nights a year at anchor. While my former house bank was OK I did find myself moving after a few days to allow the 2 x 200A alternators to recover the bank's SOC during winter or if it was a bit cloudy. Or fire up the Honda portable. Now I think I have enough wattage and bank capacity to stay in one place almost indefinitely.

BUT for hot water I have engine heat loop plus a loop on the Webasto hydronic heating circuit. And I do not have aircon.

I think your plans are OK as far as power is concerned although IMO you are being way too optimistic to expect much aircon or water heating from the proposed solar wattage & house bank.

Overall IMO you will be better off buying a different boat than doing the flybridge removal and associated work.

Fantastic information. Thanks. Did you consider supplementing your solar array with wind turbines?

 

[Insequent]

Fantastic information. Thanks. Did you consider supplementing your solar array with wind turbines?

I don't like the noise from wind turbines. I think its better to add more solar panels, and I could install hinge-out ones on the flybridge railing, if required at some point.

Pic shows panels. On hardtop at rear the 2 aft panels have moved back 600mm on slides and are then able to be angled down. Underway they lie flat on the hardtop and within its footprint. The lower two panels on the pilothouse roof now have 600mm slides as well, to move forward away from hardtop shading if required. The mods allow me to capture more solar when the stern is pointing towards the sun which happens in early morning and late afternoon due to wind directions. When the bow is pointing towards the sun I had virtually no shading, just a couple of 6m VHF antennae which can be lowed if I want to capture every last watt.

 

[klee wyck]

In your first post you mentioned water maker and aircon.
Those are big loads. Even if you can generate that many kW, check that you have enough inverter to run WM and aircon without shore or genny supplied AC power.
Perhaps your WM is DC, but my 60 GPH AC powered watermaker will crush most common inverters over time if you are not splitting loads pretty constantly.

 

[kierasdady]

I agree...

I have to agree with the many, many others that said "keep the FB and build a solar bimini." Personally, I would never get rid of a FB, and to loose the whole upper deck too... it's not worth it. As for the amount of solar panels, I might be missing something in your description but soething seems off and I think you're going way too big. You said your avg. daily consumption runs around 3kwh. Even if you plan at a conservative 5 hrs per day of charge time (on avg.), you'd only need 600W of panels to get 3kwh. Given that most panels in the real world can only be depended on for supplying about 75% of what they are rated at, you'd probably NEED about 800W of panels. After that, anything you could fit or wanted for extra bang, would just be gravy.

But then again, like I said, I might have missed something in your details.

 

[Dashash]

5 hrs/day at full rated power output on the panels is the opposite of conservative; physics basically says it's impossible. Well, physics, and orbital mechanics. But I take your point about the FB. Thanks!

 

[CharlieO.]

You may as well photoshop some forward facing pilot house windows, you can get a little more square footage on the roof for panels.

 

[Lostsailor13]

Was one of the best additions i made to my boat,i started out with panels flat and quickly learned when they are flat you are losing about 33 percent efficiency,being able to angle the panel made a such a significant change in power,something to consider

 

[OldDan1943]

Hint: one can actually buy a boat without a fly bridge.
I know this is true, my AT does not have a fly bridge.

 

[Mako]

... i started out with panels flat and quickly learned when they are flat you are losing about 33 percent efficiency,being able to angle the panel made a such a significant change in power,something to consider

A tilting mounting mechanism. Interesting idea for a tinkerer to tinker with. Mounting system which you could either tilt from the front or the rear. Either a scissor mechanism or a threaded rod activator (mechanical or electrical drive). Would need to be designed to the wind rating of the panels, which is usually in the 100 mph area.

Probably more trouble than it's worth if you have a large array. Perhaps what would be easier would be a few tilting reflective panels to direct more sunlight onto the flat mounted panels.

 

[markpierce]

Looking good! Where does company socialize outdoors? Is there a natural gathering area?

There is sitting room for five in the rear cockpit; two on top of the forward cabin, but discourage people from going atop the saloon. (Railings are low up there and exaggerated boat movements because of the higher center of gravity.) Inside, four are readily accommodated in the pilothouse and six in the saloon. I almost always remain in the pilothouse, avoiding solar rays. Rarely boat with more than four aboard, most was eight; usually just two or three including myself.