Registration Fees could increase in Cali

[caltexflanc]

California has one of the lower poverty rates among the states.

https://www.thebalance.com/us-poverty-rate-by-state-4585001

The number of people with higher incomes that are leaving is miniscule. Anecdotally, the pressure to move is on middle income and below due to enormous housing costs and other living costs, not taxes. And look at the map in the link, the "headline" states people are supposedly moving to have higher poverty rates than CA.

California and most of the New England states, like CT, pay much more in federal taxes than they receive in federal spending, due in great part to higher incomes and lower poverty. They fund "welfare states" like MS and AL who are just the reverse.

As a native, 5th generation Californian (pre-Gold Rush), and still an owner of property out there, I selfishly would love it if California shed about 10 million people. It was a great place to live 10, 20 million people ago.

 

[backinblue]

California has one of the lower poverty rates among the states.

https://www.thebalance.com/us-poverty-rate-by-state-4585001

The number of people with higher incomes that are leaving is miniscule. Anecdotally, the pressure to move is on middle income and below due to enormous housing costs and other living costs, not taxes. And look at the map in the link, the "headline" states people are supposedly moving to have higher poverty rates than CA.

California and most of the New England states, like CT, pay much more in federal taxes than they receive in federal spending, due in great part to higher incomes and lower poverty. They fund "welfare states" like MS and AL who are just the reverse.

As a native, 5th generation Californian (pre-Gold Rush), and still an owner of property out there, I selfishly would love it if California shed about 10 million people. It was a great place to live 10, 20 million people ago.

Not sure about the data you are quoting and I don't care to research it, but numbers can always be found to support almost any argument. For instance, this is not good as you probably know about many CA cities:


More than half a million people are homeless each night in the United States, a new White House report has found. And nearly half of them are concentrated in one state: California.

 

[kthoennes]

Not sure about the data you are quoting and I don't care to research it, but numbers can always be found to support almost any argument...[/B]

That's true. For example, South Dakota is often cited as a net money-sucking state, that we consume more than we pay in federal taxes. That may be true but it comes with a huge asterisk -- Bureau of Indian Affairs and other federal spending to tribes and reservations. I've seen some analyses too that allocates spending on the military bases and Missouri River/Army Corps of Engineers spending to South Dakota, even though that series of multiple hydroelectric facilities supplies power to 15 states.

 

[Derik]

For me it's not what we pay here in California but what we get in return.

Schools rank 45 or so out of 50 depending on what data you look at. Yet we spend more per student than most states.
Crime is one of the highest of all 50 states.
Welfare recipients we have 34% yet only have 15% of the population.
Cost of living I think CA is 3rd mostly due to government programs/taxes. It costs double to build a house here compared to AZ.
Roads are in terrible condition lawlessness is everywhere, we have more felons on the street than behind bars. If you live in California and think it's all good then drive 15 miles out of your comfort zone there are slums everywhere, go on a ride along with your local Police dept.

On top of that the state hates kids! and small business. They refuse to follow the science and bow down to the unions kids have been locked up since March 2020. Releasing child predators and opening our borders to child trafficking. Not even my most liberal friends agree with theses politics quality of life has diminished so much since I moved here in 1988. If I didn't have responsibilities here I would be packing the moving truck ASAP.

It's a 3rd world state.

 

[backinblue]

"California has one of the lower poverty rates among the states."

And yet they have a terrible homeless and welfare problems. Like I said, stats can be found to support almost any argument. There was a time when Portland, OR and Seattle, WA were a couple of my favorite cities in the country. I used to love going there for business as well as pleasure. Unfortunately they are being systematically ruined by their respective governors and mayors running them and I would not want to visit them now.

 

[caltexflanc]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/200445/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-us-states/

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/welfare-recipients-by-state

Maybe time for some of us to change channels on the radio or TV?

I agree the state has a bunch of issues and IMO, over population and the way it has been dealt with by both the private and public sectors is the root of them.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

I have responded to numerous boating cost questions on this forum. Many, many of them are about fuel costs. I always say that fuel costs are the least expensive thing about owning a boat. I guess I should change my response and say registration and licensing are the lowest cost items of boat ownership.

I guess I just don't care if they double or even triple. They are still a very minor expense.

pete

 

[kthoennes]

...I always say that fuel costs are the least expensive thing about owning a boat. I guess I should change my response and say registration and licensing are the lowest cost items of boat ownership...

Well, yes, registration and licensing are pretty tiny expenses, relatively speaking. Mine are about $20 for state registration annually, $26 for the fed documentation renewal. My wife and I spend more than that on a single nice restaurant dinner. Other states are higher certainly, but you add taxes -- I think a poster above (or maybe it was another thread) talked about annual property taxes (excise taxes) in the thousands, just shocking my opinion. I remember his annual property taxes on the boat exceed my slip fees every year. Of course it depends on the value of the boat in many places of course, and we pay no property taxes on assets other than the house here, but depending on where you are, a general expense category of "government" can be a significant expense for boat ownership.

 

[backinblue]

In CT we pay no property taxes on boats, only cars thank God. CT learned the hard way that taxing the "rich" boaters only resulted in killing the local boating industry. They now have even go so far as halving the sales tax on boats vs. cars. There used to be a full sales tax and also a luxury tax on boats over 100K. It's easy for politicians to think it's a no-brainer to tax boaters because they can afford it, and all they do is kill the marinas and boat sales and all the businesses and jobs of the workers that support the industry.

 

[Art]

In CT we pay no property taxes on boats, only cars thank God. CT learned the hard way that taxing the "rich" boaters only resulted in killing the local boating industry. They now have even go so far as halving the sales tax on boats vs. cars. There used to be a full sales tax and also a luxury tax on boats over 100K. It's easy for politicians to think it's a no-brainer to tax boaters because they can afford it, and all they do is kill the marinas and boat sales and all the businesses and jobs of the workers that support the industry.

The "Money Changers"... they pissed off Christ too! Look where that got him!

 

[Derik]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/200445/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-us-states/

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/welfare-recipients-by-state

Maybe time for some of us to change channels on the radio or TV?

I agree the state has a bunch of issues and IMO, over population and the way it has been dealt with by both the private and public sectors is the root of them.

I like the people who will debate facts then try to back the up with flawed studies. News Sources should all be treated with skepticism. At some point real feel and life experience takes over and what you hear from news sources becomes very fake. Here is a contradictory report to what you posted. Real feel after 30 years of living here owning a business in two cities here and dealing with the bureaucracy is the state is in spiral and is a 3rd world S hole.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/california-poverty-capital-15659.html

Crime Reports don't report crimes not reported or no arrests made or officer reports. A hand full of rioters were arrested and processed during the riots over 30 stores were looted and several burned to the ground. This happened for two months in California.

Most cities chose to cut police funding and most DA's are on the side of the Criminals rather than the tax payers. Google Los Angeles DA George Gascon.

Look at how CA handled the lock down. People arrested for being in their kayak alone outdoor restaurant owners arrested, still nothing open here kids suffering everywhere in CA nobody cares and nobody reporting it nationally. Every emergency is met with drastic measures, and freedoms are taken away, things like water and power always in shortage drugs, crime, child abuse always increasing

30 years of poor leadership and people who don't care about others is the problem. Being Selfish and thinking things are ok because they are ok is not a admirable trait but runs rampant here.

Once again Real Life experiences will always Trump some Liberal Arts Educated News Journalist or News Station or dome data manipulated report. Get out of the Marina and drive around California any populated area is a S-Hole. No city is safe.

Downtown San Diego was a tourist area just a year and a half ago now it's a crime infested sewer. LA worse hasn't been good for 25 years, Riverside same, SF same meanwhile reports are all is well in CA. BS is BS.

 

[SR400DB]

I like the people who will debate facts then try to back the up with flawed studies. News Sources should all be treated with skepticism. At some point real feel and life experience takes over and what you hear from news sources becomes very fake. Here is a contradictory report to what you posted. Real feel after 30 years of living here owning a business in two cities here and dealing with the bureaucracy is the state is in spiral and is a 3rd world S hole.



https://www.city-journal.org/html/california-poverty-capital-15659.html



Crime Reports don't report crimes not reported or no arrests made or officer reports. A hand full of rioters were arrested and processed during the riots over 30 stores were looted and several burned to the ground. This happened for two months in California.



Most cities chose to cut police funding and most DA's are on the side of the Criminals rather than the tax payers. Google Los Angeles DA George Gascon.



Look at how CA handled the lock down. People arrested for being in their kayak alone outdoor restaurant owners arrested, still nothing open here kids suffering everywhere in CA nobody cares and nobody reporting it nationally. Every emergency is met with drastic measures, and freedoms are taken away, things like water and power always in shortage drugs, crime, child abuse always increasing



30 years of poor leadership and people who don't care about others is the problem. Being Selfish and thinking things are ok because they are ok is not a admirable trait but runs rampant here.



Once again Real Life experiences will always Trump some Liberal Arts Educated News Journalist or News Station or dome data manipulated report. Get out of the Marina and drive around California any populated area is a S-Hole. No city is safe.



Downtown San Diego was a tourist area just a year and a half ago now it's a crime infested sewer. LA worse hasn't been good for 25 years, Riverside same, SF same meanwhile reports are all is well in CA. BS is BS.

Finally someone says it like it is in California. The state is a disaster and getting worse by the minute.

I also enjoy the know it all’s that have no idea what it is like here.

Only a matter of time until I relocate. And it is the same for every colleague and friend I speak with.

 

[backinblue]

CA is not alone, many states and cities are in a similar state. The biggest mystery to me is why the residents continue to support the same leadership that got them there? Definition of insanity perhaps? Not trying to be funny or cynical or argumentative, but seriously, what does it take for people to stop accepting the way things are going and demand a change? CT, where I live, is not a model for success either so I'm not saying I have it better than anyone else, but that is why I vote against the incumbents more often than not.

 

[Art]

CA is not alone, many states and cities are in a similar state. The biggest mystery to me is why the residents continue to support the same leadership that got them there? Definition of insanity perhaps? Not trying to be funny or cynical or argumentative, but seriously, what does it take for people to stop accepting the way things are going and demand a change? CT, where I live, is not a model for success either so I'm not saying I have it better than anyone else, but that is why I vote against the incumbents more often than not.

"What we've got here is a failure to communicate"! "Cool Hand Luke" 1967

The communication failure "we've got here" in today's [as well as the last 50 plus years of] assorted/aborted public affairs/efforts: Defining the meaning of and continuous need for the word work.

There are already many millions of persons living inside multi generations of families that have not been trained how to [nor have been filled with the desire to] work. Why - Simple - Free food, dwelling, medical, school, playgrounds, cloths and a monthly stipend of spending money. With these "free - give away" items ongoing [accelerating as of late] the "money pit" hole in society gets ever bigger.

How can this deep $$$-loss hole be reduced in size - WORK!!!

There are items that need to be accomplished in U.S. infrastructure that would employ tens of millions for several decades. The free-be receiving population needs to understand - No WORK = No ongoing assistance.

Law makers must put together packages that include private building industry and force the current non-workers into cooperative "working" positions to completely revamp and improve our U.S. infrastructure.

This I mention is a BIG Job. However, it can and must be accomplished.

I'm a decades successful masonry, concrete and tile contractor. Give me a hungry person for three months [that must work to make money] and I'll teach them to financially fend for themselves while gaining greatly improved feelings about themselves.

To do this, wherein we tens of thousand privately owned contractor businesses can build, build, build by employing currently disadvantaged persons [along with our current workers], the public funds need to redirected away from welfare payments into new types of funds for new-build, restore, repair, refurbish, maintain.

Can this be done - Yes! Will this be done - ???????????

 

[backinblue]

I agree with you. Not sure why you say we have a failure to communicate. Will it be done? Doubtful especially with the current leadership. It will only happen if leadership is changed and unfortunately, those who work are quickly becoming the minority. It's not rocket science. With the current COVID situation where we pay people more $$$ to stay home than they used to earn when working, what do you expect to happen? Spending trillions at a time should scare people but all people care about is getting their handout as the country goes bankrupt. It's only a matter of time before "tax the rich" includes all of us who have even modest means. There is already talk, not just taxing income but taxing wealth. They can decide that your IRA, your house and property, your investments, your boat, etc, that you worked your entire life for, should be taxed and given to those that don't have what you do. "Socialism is great till you run out of other people's money". Watch your wallet!

 

[FF]

"In CT we pay no property taxes on boats, only cars thank God."

True but a boat must pay a registration tax to be in CT waters , even for just a seasonal visit from another state.

Marinas are forced to police their docks and moorings , as unpaid serfs , to send monthly reports of boats and owners without CT stickers.

A rose with another name is still a rose, Money demanded by a state is still a tax.

 

[backinblue]

"In CT we pay no property taxes on boats, only cars thank God."

True but a boat must pay a registration tax to be in CT waters , even for just a seasonal visit from another state.

Marinas are forced to police their docks and moorings , as unpaid serfs , to send monthly reports of boats and owners without CT stickers.

A rose with another name is still a rose, Money demanded by a state is still a tax.

The registration fee in CT is very small, much like registering your car. I don't have a problem with that. Do you suggest that boating should be 100% without any taxes or fees ? Why should boats be exempt vs. most other vehicles? You more than likely pay a toll when you drive your car in another state for instance. I'd rather pay a small annual registration fee than having my boat being taxed as a luxury item.

 

[slowgoesit]

The registration fee in CT is very small, much like registering your car. I don't have a problem with that. Do you suggest that boating should be 100% without any taxes or fees ? Why should boats be exempt vs. most other vehicles? You more than likely pay a toll when you drive your car in another state for instance. I'd rather pay a small annual registration fee than having my boat being taxed as a luxury item.

My problem with the above, is being forced to register/pay tax in MULTIPLE states just because I may cruise through/stay for a period of time. Now if a state were to just contact the state where my boat is registered and I pay taxes on it and say:

"The following boat was present in our state for 2 months. Please remit 1/6 of the annual registration fee/and/or taxes you've been paid to us."

I would have no problem with it, but potentially having to pay taxes in MULTIPLE states, and use tax in MULTIPLE states for the same calendar year is what I object to.

How would you like to have to register your car in MULTIPLE states every year, just because you drove through those states?

 

[backinblue]

My problem with the above, is being forced to register/pay tax in MULTIPLE states just because I may cruise through/stay for a period of time. Now if a state were to just contact the state where my boat is registered and I pay taxes on it and say:

"The following boat was present in our state for 2 months. Please remit 1/6 of the annual registration fee/and/or taxes you've been paid to us."

I would have no problem with it, but potentially having to pay taxes in MULTIPLE states, and use tax in MULTIPLE states for the same calendar year is what I object to.

How would you like to have to register your car in MULTIPLE states every year, just because you drove through those states?

I don't object to your suggestion that about paying 1 fee and dividing it amongst the states you visit, but it would be impossible to implement. Using the car analogy, I pay a lot in local sales tax and property tax for my vehicles. When I drive through another state, I might be charged a toll which allegedly supports their roads and bridges, so that doesn't bother me. If I move to another state or spend most of the year there, technically I should register my car there. You don't have to register your boat every time you visit another state, only if you stay long enough. If you are lucky enough to spend long enough times in multiple states each year to require several registrations, you shouldn't begrudge contributing that very small fee to the state. In fact, I would imagine that is such a miniscule part of your annual boating budget, I can't imagine it matters to you. But you are entitled to your opinion and I respect it.

 

[magna 6882]

California has one of the lower poverty rates among the states.

https://www.thebalance.com/us-poverty-rate-by-state-4585001

The number of people with higher incomes that are leaving is miniscule. Anecdotally, the pressure to move is on middle income and below due to enormous housing costs and other living costs, not taxes. And look at the map in the link, the "headline" states people are supposedly moving to have higher poverty rates than CA.

California and most of the New England states, like CT, pay much more in federal taxes than they receive in federal spending, due in great part to higher incomes and lower poverty. They fund "welfare states" like MS and AL who are just the reverse.

As a native, 5th generation Californian (pre-Gold Rush), and still an owner of property out there, I selfishly would love it if California shed about 10 million people. It was a great place to live 10, 20 million people ago.

I had a second home in palm springs and sold it but i didnt work in the state but heard a lot of complaints when we were there.
I have three friends who lived in different parts of the state who left. All three were retired with upper incomes. Sold there houses and in one case the boat that was moored in San Diego . They all said it was mostly because of homeless,drugs and social problems and felt there tax money was being wasted and they just didn't like living there anymore. One went to Idaho another Texas and the third an rv space in Idaho and on the road with there motorhome.
Here in Seattle i see the same thing . The one cool thing about Seattle is they built a tunnel so i can go underground from one side to the other so i don't have to see the surface.

 

[bligh]

I had a second home in palm springs and sold it but i didnt work in the state but heard a lot of complaints when we were there.
I have three friends who lived in different parts of the state who left. All three were retired with upper incomes. Sold there houses and in one case the boat that was moored in San Diego . They all said it was mostly because of homeless,drugs and social problems and felt there tax money was being wasted and they just didn't like living there anymore. One went to Idaho another Texas and the third an rv space in Idaho and on the road with there motorhome.
Here in Seattle i see the same thing . The one cool thing about Seattle is they built a tunnel so i can go underground from one side to the other so i don't have to see the surface.

I'm definitely out of CA when i retire. i wish I could leave sooner, but it is not an option right now.

 

[Art]

I'm definitely out of CA when i retire. i wish I could leave sooner, but it is not an option right now.

Be careful! You know the old story - Grass Often Looks Greener... !!!

 

[backinblue]

It's a sad state of affairs in many cities in the U.S., but as long as the people who live there accept it and do nothing to change it, things will not get any better, and likely get worse. Sadly, some of these cities should be, and used to be some of the best places to visit or live in the country. I'm thinking of places like Seattle, Portland, San Fran, San Diego, Chicago, NY, etc.... People need to wake up and stop supporting the failed policies that caused the decline in the quality of life there. There is a chance for change in CA and NY as their governors will likely not be in power much longer. Will people seize the opportunity and vote for change? I remain doubtful but hopeful. In the end, we live in a democracy and people get what they deserve. If you like the way things are going where you live, re-elect your current leaders. If you don't, make a change.

 

[catalinajack]

Roads in California are in terrible condition. Compared to what? I have traveled extensively in California and have found the roads there to be generally quite good. Now, try the roads anywhere in New England. You wilome away with a wholly different opinion of the roads in California, at least on a relative basis.

In San Diego City, the streets are swept clean TWICE A MONTH!

For me it's not what we pay here in California but what we get in return.

Schools rank 45 or so out of 50 depending on what data you look at. Yet we spend more per student than most states.
Crime is one of the highest of all 50 states.
Welfare recipients we have 34% yet only have 15% of the population.
Cost of living I think CA is 3rd mostly due to government programs/taxes. It costs double to build a house here compared to AZ.
Roads are in terrible condition lawlessness is everywhere, we have more felons on the street than behind bars. If you live in California and think it's all good then drive 15 miles out of your comfort zone there are slums everywhere, go on a ride along with your local Police dept.

On top of that the state hates kids! and small business. They refuse to follow the science and bow down to the unions kids have been locked up since March 2020. Releasing child predators and opening our borders to child trafficking. Not even my most liberal friends agree with theses politics quality of life has diminished so much since I moved here in 1988. If I didn't have responsibilities here I would be packing the moving truck ASAP.

It's a 3rd world state.

 

[catalinajack]

So, what authoratative sources do you use to draw YOUR conclusions.? Just wondering.

I like the people who will debate facts then try to back the up with flawed studies. News Sources should all be treated with skepticism. At some point real feel and life experience takes over and what you hear from news sources becomes very fake. Here is a contradictory report to what you posted. Real feel after 30 years of living here owning a business in two cities here and dealing with the bureaucracy is the state is in spiral and is a 3rd world S hole.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/california-poverty-capital-15659.html

Crime Reports don't report crimes not reported or no arrests made or officer reports. A hand full of rioters were arrested and processed during the riots over 30 stores were looted and several burned to the ground. This happened for two months in California.

Most cities chose to cut police funding and most DA's are on the side of the Criminals rather than the tax payers. Google Los Angeles DA George Gascon.

Look at how CA handled the lock down. People arrested for being in their kayak alone outdoor restaurant owners arrested, still nothing open here kids suffering everywhere in CA nobody cares and nobody reporting it nationally. Every emergency is met with drastic measures, and freedoms are taken away, things like water and power always in shortage drugs, crime, child abuse always increasing

30 years of poor leadership and people who don't care about others is the problem. Being Selfish and thinking things are ok because they are ok is not a admirable trait but runs rampant here.

Once again Real Life experiences will always Trump some Liberal Arts Educated News Journalist or News Station or dome data manipulated report. Get out of the Marina and drive around California any populated area is a S-Hole. No city is safe.

Downtown San Diego was a tourist area just a year and a half ago now it's a crime infested sewer. LA worse hasn't been good for 25 years, Riverside same, SF same meanwhile reports are all is well in CA. BS is BS.

 

[backinblue]

Roads in California are in terrible condition. Compared to what? I have traveled extensively in California and have found the roads there to be generally quite good. Now, try the roads anywhere in New England. You wilome away with a wholly different opinion of the roads in California, at least on a relative basis.

In San Diego City, the streets are swept clean TWICE A MONTH!

Comparing roads in New England to CA is not really a fair comparison. CA does not have the severe winter weather that destroys roads every year. Also, roads in New England are much older than CA. In New England, it is not practical to construct a new super highway without displacing 100s of thousands of homes and businesses. Maybe San Diego needs to sweep their streets for a reason?

 

[catalinajack]

Backinblue, I am native to CT, live in Maryland. I marveled at a conversation I once had with our neighbor when we owned a dirt house. She was complaining about the high real property taxes. I shut her up quickly when I told her that the taxes on our homes would be close to double in CT and not to mention having to pay personal property taxes on vehicles.

We are getting ready, two years or so, to sell our boat and buy a dirt house. We would like to return "home". Real property in CT isn't wildly expensive compared to the Baltimore-Washington corridor but the taxes, including an income tax, obviate doing so. Lousy local roads. Three hundred dollars a quarter for water in the metro Hartford area. However, CT does have the best pizza, by far, in the country. Great or very good pizza can be found in just about every city and town in CT.

CA is not alone, many states and cities are in a similar state. The biggest mystery to me is why the residents continue to support the same leadership that got them there? Definition of insanity perhaps? Not trying to be funny or cynical or argumentative, but seriously, what does it take for people to stop accepting the way things are going and demand a change? CT, where I live, is not a model for success either so I'm not saying I have it better than anyone else, but that is why I vote against the incumbents more often than not.

 

[catalinajack]

Those who work are in the minority? I guess it depends on how one defines minority. The unemployment rate is what, 6%, 7%, 8%. That's a minority? Full employment is generally considered to exist when the rate gets down to 4 or 5%. Want more of "those" people, you know, those lazy parasites, then pay them enough to make it worth their while - the minimum wage fight. Would any of us work for 8 bucks an hour with no benefits doing dirty work? Sure, many just accept welfare and get along. But, I suggest you take a ride in certain sections of Baltimore City or, many other cities, and then tell me that the folks there live in third-world country conditions because, well, they are just lazy and prefer to suck on the public tit just to live in squalor.

I agree with you. Not sure why you say we have a failure to communicate. Will it be done? Doubtful especially with the current leadership. It will only happen if leadership is changed and unfortunately, those who work are quickly becoming the minority. It's not rocket science. With the current COVID situation where we pay people more $$$ to stay home than they used to earn when working, what do you expect to happen? Spending trillions at a time should scare people but all people care about is getting their handout as the country goes bankrupt. It's only a matter of time before "tax the rich" includes all of us who have even modest means. There is already talk, not just taxing income but taxing wealth. They can decide that your IRA, your house and property, your investments, your boat, etc, that you worked your entire life for, should be taxed and given to those that don't have what you do. "Socialism is great till you run out of other people's money". Watch your wallet!

 

[catalinajack]

Yes, native New Englanders understand why the roads are bad.. The point I was making was the roads in California are not at all lousy. The roads are swept in San Diego to sweep up tree and plant detritus, not cans and bottles or trash.

Comparing roads in New England to CA is not really a fair comparison. CA does not have the severe winter weather that destroys roads every year. Also, roads in New England are much older than CA. In New England, it is not practical to construct a new super highway without displacing 100s of thousands of homes and businesses. Maybe San Diego needs to sweep their streets for a reason?

 

[catalinajack]

I was late to this discussion. My God from $10/year to $35/year. Sure, a 250% increase. Big deal.

Could increase a whopping 250%!! This sucks.

https://www.thelog.com/snw/proposed...ail&utm_term=0_85f388c485-dfaf85f210-47817425