Reducing roll while anchored or moored.

[Mako]

Over-redundancy and complexity

mvweebles and Hippocampus,

So why are today's bluewater cruisers more complex compared to the "old days?"

Not trying to be too cheeky here, but it's almost as if the more computer chips you have onboard, the more redundancy you need. Is it because they just aren't trusted or reliable?

Reading all these threads over the years it would seem that most Nordies, KKs, Flemings and similar have two autopilots, four electronic charts (including laptops, iPads, MFDs, etc.), three or more VHFs, etc. List goes on and on.

Thousands of vessels have crossed the Pacific back and forth with zero microchips onboard. Old radars with transistors inside, or maybe even vacuum tubes for all I know. A single Wood Freeman autopilot. Paper charts.

Modern electronic components are wonderful and make life easier, but people tend to forget that there is a difference between what is wanted versus what is actually needed.

 

[rslifkin]

I can confirm the vent holes in the upper part of the orange cones does help them drop a bit faster. Not a complete magic bullet, but they definitely dampen large rolls more effectively than before.

 

[BandB]

Thousands of vessels have crossed the Pacific back and forth with zero microchips onboard. Old radars with transistors inside, or maybe even vacuum tubes for all I know. A single Wood Freeman autopilot. Paper charts.

Modern electronic components are wonderful and make life easier, but people tend to forget that there is a difference between what is wanted versus what is actually needed.

Hundreds have had failed efforts at crossings too. Yes, you can make it without technology and without backup systems, but everyone doesn't make it across like that. We don't read much on the failed crossings.

 

[FF]

"Modern electronic components are wonderful and make life easier, but people tend to forget that there is a difference between what is wanted versus what is actually needed."

Sadly many folks think a pile of electric boxes can replace simple gear like a lead line.

 

[Hippocampus]

I’m pretty old school. Did multiple Marion to Bermuda races with Rolex wristwatch, plastic Davis sextant, a Texas Instruments battery operated calculator and my nautical almanacs. Had pre printed sheets to do sight reductions and got there every time. We carry a log stick, a weight on a marked string with an indent for tallow, a recording barometer and a handheld ananometer. Even now both IPads and the phone have the celestial programs and star identification programs in them. Have a Plath hidden on the boat. Could just run lat with a piece of paper and a pencil.
A EMF pulse comes through we’d be fine.
But people tend to forget you live on the thing. You want hot showers, enough fresh water for the toilets, cold beer and frozen ice cream, you don’t want to sleep in a pool of sweat nor in woolies and socks, you like clean clothes,you want to talk with friends and family and probably need Internet for business needs.
Now you have
HVAC
Watermaker
Frig with separate freezer
AC
Heat
a Splendide
Electric macerated toilets
Red and white lighting.
SSB and satphone
Your own tool shop and spare storage
Tankage with required pumps.
Powered windlass.
Note we haven’t said anything about propulsion (wind or power)
Nor navigation.
A cruising boat is the same as a house. For many it is the house. Go through the complexity of your house. Is it much different?

 

[socalrider]

Sadly many folks think a pile of electric boxes can replace simple gear like a lead line.

And none of the kids these days know how to use an astrolabe!

 

[DDW]

From my experience with my 'plates,' there are two factors that make a flopper stopper successful. First, it must descend freely and quickly. Second, it must quickly transform from easy free-fall to substantially resist ascent. This must happen within a couple feet of travel, and it must happen in waters that are often less than 15-feet. I just don't see how the loose-fabric Jordan drogue would be effective, especially since the Davis "Mexican Hats" are a similar concept and provide marginal dampening at best.

But if I had a Jordan Drogue, I'd give it a try. At least to see how they open and close.

Peter

Not much experience with flopper stoppers, but your criteria can be arrived at by common sense. I think the Jordon would free fall much more readily than the Mexican Hats, as they collapse readily that direction. Question would be how quickly they open on the up roll. I have one on the sailboat but it is something like 100 cones. They are not difficult to make, maybe I'll make a couple of short ones on my Covid vacation and try them next year if they ever let me get to the boat. For this use, perhaps just a couple of larger cones would work better. Larger probably = more time and travel to open though.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Here is the latest modification to my Rocker Stoppers. These are flaps made out of scrap PVC material. A little more involved than just drilling the holes (shown on the "crown" of the hat). They now drop even faster and I'm reducing the size of my lead sinker to 32 oz. Makes for a simple, easy to store system.

I'm not sure of the value of having 5 on each side. They tend to cause an upsurge draft (which they then have to pass back through when dropping). It could be that there is a diminishing return for adding additional hats. If hanging 3 does 90% of what 5 can do, I'll take my improvements and just use 3 each side. Less weight and smaller package.

 

[rslifkin]

For the same total number of hats, it might be more effective to hang 3 midship and 2 at the stern on each side (so 4 strings instead of 2). I haven't tested, but I wouldn't be surprised if that helps (provided enough beam is carried to the location of the stern cleats).

 

[Fletcher500]

Here is the latest modification to my Rocker Stoppers. These are flaps made out of scrap PVC material. A little more involved than just drilling the holes (shown on the "crown" of the hat). They now drop even faster and I'm reducing the size of my lead sinker to 32 oz. Makes for a simple, easy to store system.

I'm not sure of the value of having 5 on each side. They tend to cause an upsurge draft (which they then have to pass back through when dropping). It could be that there is a diminishing return for adding additional hats. If hanging 3 does 90% of what 5 can do, I'll take my improvements and just use 3 each side. Less weight and smaller package.

That’s a clever modification. I will do the same to mine, especially if you can reduce the weight on the end and the amount of red hats. I currently have a 15 lb dumbbell (still in test mode) and retrieving it midship it gets very close to the side and taking a chunk out of the gel coat.

 

[Comodave]

That’s a clever modification. I will do the same to mine, especially if you can reduce the weight on the end and the amount of red hats. I currently have a 15 lb dumbbell (still in test mode) and retrieving it midship it gets very close to the side and taking a chunk out of the gel coat.

Maybe get a rubber covered dumbell so it won’t ding the boat.

 

[markpierce]

mvweebles and Hippocampus,

So why are today's bluewater cruisers more complex compared to the "old days?" ...

Many cannot stand not having the latest in technology, too the aces squared.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I currently have a 15 lb dumbbell (still in test mode) and retrieving it midship it gets very close to the side and taking a chunk out of the gel coat.

I'm trying to stick with lead cannonball weights. I have some of different sizes and even a 10# fits inside of the cone(s) when stacked up. Although round, they still might damage the side of the boat. But, they don't rust and they "sink like lead," not surprising. I'm also using 3/8" lead-filled line left over from another project. This isn't the crab pot rope that barely sinks. This stuff has pieces of pencil lead in it. My 20 foot length probably weighs 2 pounds, so it doesn't need weight to pull it down.

 

[Comodave]

I'm trying to stick with lead cannonball weights. I have some of different sizes and even a 10# fits inside of the cone(s) when stacked up. Although round, they still might damage the side of the boat. But, they don't rust and they "sink like lead," not surprising. I'm also using 3/8" lead-filled line left over from another project. This isn't the crab pot rope that barely sinks. This stuff has pieces of pencil lead in it. My 20 foot length probably weighs 2 pounds, so it doesn't need weight to pull it down.

You could coat them with some liquid neoprene so they won’t ding the hull.

 

[BandB]

"Modern electronic components are wonderful and make life easier, but people tend to forget that there is a difference between what is wanted versus what is actually needed."

Sadly many folks think a pile of electric boxes can replace simple gear like a lead line.

Wifey B: Life decisions are often based on wants, not needs. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone here is fulfilling wants. No one "needs" a boat. Some of you act like you're casting away wants and just into needs and no.... think of real needs and how far from that we all are.

And I make no apologies ever for fulfilling wants. As to electronics, I want them all, state of the art, doesn't make me any less of a captain as I know how to do it with and without.

 

[mvweebles]

Why are modern cruisers more complex? I dunno. Technology has really lowered the bar for entry over the last 25 years. GPS. Watermakers. Electronic charting. Refrigeration. Air-conditioning. Thrusters. Electric sail handing. Fast dinghies Generators. Weather forecasting. YouTube channels of newbies in bikinis. These have all made it possible for novice to feel confident about heading off. Add in a ton of disposable income, and you have a dream that's funded.

In the main, a cruiser once needed time to learn seamanship skills. Now they can buy-in and leapfrog the learning curve, or at least much of it.

For many the tradeoff is only known later as they seek repairs or wait for certainty about how to proceed. Huatulco MX on the north end of Bay of Tehuemtepec is legendary for cruisers congregating waiting for a weather window. As it turns out, the lowest common denominator sets the pace as they can always convince the weather will be perfect in 3 days time, not tomorrow. Lacking seamanship or basic mechanical skills means your itinerary is not your own.

Or you cruise in well known waters where help is a call and a credit card swipe away.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

Wifey B: Life decisions are often based on wants, not needs. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone here is fulfilling wants. No one "needs" a boat. Some of you act like you're casting away wants and just into needs and no.... think of real needs and how far from that we all are.

And I make no apologies ever for fulfilling wants. As to electronics, I want them all, state of the art, doesn't make me any less of a captain as I know how to do it with and without.

I'm reminded of Jack Ross who ran Trawler Fest after Georgs Kolesnikov used to say

"the only time you really need a boat is when you're on is sinking and the one next to it isn't. "

 

[Hippocampus]

Personally think of it a a transfer of skill sets. Unless you can afford to be a credit card captain you’re forced to learn new skills.
Electronics troubleshooting and installation.
Wrenching
Plumbing
HVAC troubleshooting
Wiring and electrical work
And so on.
The weather skills you learned from Lee Chesneau
Or the rules of the road, lights, bouys, chart interpretation from your prior Masters course are still useful
You don’t use your nav skills but you still log your DR if only to see if it matches the gps fix.
So having run on paper and lower limb of moon v gps think they’re both as complex. It’s just a different complexity.
Having done passages without a watermaker and with it’s just a different skill set. Both the wife and I can shower with a teapot of water. Or do all the dishes with a pot of fresh. It’s painstaking. Boat still plumbed fresh and salt everywhere. Just different complexities. Human needs haven’t changed. Our forbearers were quite clever. They dealt with the same problems we have but differently. Their lives were equally complex.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Technology has really lowered the bar for entry over the last 25 years.

When I purchased my present boat in January, it had the PO's library onboard. He purchased in 1991 and bought the then popular books and tools necessary for coastal cruising. I worked at Captain's Nautical Supplies in Seattle in the 1970's, so I was familiar with them and had also used them. But now? Piloting and Dead Reckoning? A pelorus? Parallel rulers? Dividers? How do you use parallel rulers or dividers on your MFD (multifunction display)? Wouldn't the dividers damage my screen?

Now I only need to look at the MFD and it automatically tells me where I am, the offset for current and wind, my COG, other vessels in the area (well, some of them), etc. No need to think. Just stare at the screen and follow its advice.

I think the same concept is also affecting our politics.

 

[Hippocampus]

Was sailing along the coast of Maine. Had my partner in the practice at the helm. I was lying down in the quarterberth b. Ran up to the cockpit as I heard waves breaking on rocks. My partner told me to chill. Pointed to position 1/4 m off shore on the RayMarine. Dense fog but I heard waves breaking on the shore. In spite of his screaming arguments at me grabbed the wheel and tacked away from shore. A hole in the fog showed we were feet away from a hard rock grounding.
Turns out gps was degraded. There was new stuff coming out of Bath from what we later heard. I don’t much care what your electronics say I’ll trust my 5:senses more.
We have had an occasional mismatch between the electronic charted depths and what the ultrasonic depth sensor reads. Always trust the local sensor. Never the chart. We have had mismatch between the gps and the radar as well. In that case always trust the radar first. Will run a depth contour and a radar range rather then trust the MFD. Can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had to remind crew to get their damn head out of the screen and look around and use their senses. Cankt tell you the number of times I’ve needed to ask that they always check the MFD against a local source (radar, depth eyes etc.).
Think the dependence some have on their MFDs is just plain scary. A mishap waiting to happen. Even the start up screen is very explicit. It tells you don’t depend on it as your only source. It’s just an aid to navigation.

 

[rslifkin]

That's the key to any technology: Know what it can and can't tell you. And know how its information relates to the other available information so you can detect when things disagree and determine which source is untrustworthy.

I also like to run with 2 different sources of chart data displayed when in unfamiliar areas, as sometimes one is more accurate than the other (this can often be determined by comparing buoy locations and such on the chart to what I'm actually seeing).

 

[mvweebles]

Now I only need to look at the MFD and it automatically tells me where I am, the offset for current and wind, my COG, other vessels in the area (well, some of them), etc. No need to think. Just stare at the screen and follow its advice.

I think the same concept is also affecting our politics.

I was a relative late-comer to long distance boating. My involvement coincided with the tail-end of Loran being equipped on boats. RDFs were already a relic, but you'd still see them from time to time. The initial GPS's gave lat/long so you'd still have to transpose them to a paper chart. At least for me, human error along the way was pretty frequent (e.g. transposing numbers, etc.), so I learned to coastal navigate, often by lighthouse beacons where you could triangulate your position. Navigating at night is actually easier along the Pacific Coast as the lights hand-off from one to the other. During the day, that's not really visible, so you dead-reckon as a method to check your chart-math.

I'm sure it's changed in the last 10-years due to satellite charting and mapping, but there were entire stretches of the central California coast where the charts had not been undated since the 1930's. And the charts that did exist were the coarse-scale ones that provide little detail. The first set of computing charting packages presented digitized versions of these charts. But something interesting started to happen - because they were digitized (basically a JPG), you could zoom-in to see much more detail. More detail than actually existed giving the navigator has a false sense of accuracy.

Long story/intro to say that what's missing is sense of situational awareness. It used to be that the best a navigator could hope for were single data points that were known to be only somewhat accurate at best, and there were many places for human error (setting the wrong baseline on a GPS for example). So they were constantly looking to triangulate data - does the depth correlate with where I think I am? Is the tower I see in the distance at the right angle to my direction of travel? Is my SOG close to my predicted VMG? Is my COG accurate or am I getting pushed by a current? Can I correlate what I see on the radar with where I think I am on the chart?

I think many sailors no longer develop situational awareness - the chart plotter does it all for them. In the past, navigators knew none of their data was good, so they had to correlate many pieces of data and make an evaluation. This skill has been relinquished to electronics even though the underlying data may not be all that accurate. But it appears very accurate. I understand the need for situational awareness has changed, but I think it's gone too far. We recreational boaters travel in areas where the data is not updated often and the channels are subject to change (thinking of inlets along the Florida coast). Following a chartplotter is just a bad idea, and if you haven't developed a sense of situational awareness, you have no other option.

A very long way of saying: look out the window.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Spot on Peter. A 1+ post. Been wandering around in the fog �� (since a kid-Maine LI sound) so got used to smelling land and hearing it. Still believe when coastal it’s important to periodically get out from shelter and do a slow 360. If you’re paying attention it’s amazing how good your senses are. Think what you’re alluding to will only get worse and the cognitive confusion between virtual reality and physical reality increases. The better the virtual reality is the more likely the user (navigator) will give it greater ascendancy.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

because they were digitized (basically a JPG), you could zoom-in to see much more detail. More detail than actually existed giving the navigator has a false sense of accuracy.

My favorite zoom-in zoom-out story is from when I was sailing in the South Pacific with another couple, he being 20 years my senior with lots of "old school" experience. When we changed at the helm, he would zoom out, I would zoom in.

The icon for the boat stayed the same size on the screen. When coming in through an opening in a reef, I would zoom in and check the width of the channel, the numbers on the buoys or day markers, etc. Even when I was at the helm he would zoom out and say "That looks too narrow for us" (because when the entire island of Mo'orea is on the screen, the boat icon was then bigger than the opening in the reef). When passing a day marker, I would zoom in and see that I was 500 feet away and following the 50 meter contour. He would zoom out until the icon was touching the marker and get nervous, claiming that we were passing too close.

We had to have a sit-down to establish that the person at the helm also has the conn and controls the zoom. Seems funny now.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: Misuse of technology isn't the fault of technology, but of the user. We all must properly use all the tools we have. If we do so, then we will also benefit from technology as it's not "instead of" but "in addition to."

 

[Comodave]

How does a thread on stopping rolling at anchor get to here??? I was monitoring this thread because it was of interest to me, but not anymore.

 

[Ted]

Okay Comodave,

I used paravanes (chicken irons) and found them effective.

Ted

 

[BandB]

Okay Comodave,

I used paravanes (chicken irons) and found them effective.

Ted

And I still prefer the solution the OP already has on his boat, but he doesn't so hope he finds something he does like.

 

[Fletcher500]

And I still prefer the solution the OP already has on his boat, but he doesn't so hope he finds something he does like.

I believe I gave my reasoning in post #24 BB. That’s how I like to roll. We all have decisions to make in regards to how our boating affects the environment. Your boat burns about 100 gph if I remember correctly so your viewpoint toward hydrocarbon consumption is not surprising to me. Cheers mate.

 

[BandB]

I believe I gave my reasoning in post #24 BB. That’s how I like to roll. We all have decisions to make in regards to how our boating affects the environment. Your boat burns about 100 gph if I remember correctly so your viewpoint toward hydrocarbon consumption is not surprising to me. Cheers mate.

And I respect your decision. I would have thought the amount of time you'd need to run the generator for the gyro while anchored would have been minimal and fuel consumed the same. I did go back and read post #24 and it does explain your reasons well.

As to our viewpoint toward the environment, you have no idea, but we do burn a lot of fuel boating and take action in other ways.