Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

[Sailor of Fortune]

WTF? Why are you trying to take what is an essentially an inland cruiser and trying to make it suitable for ocean passage type cruisers? The Pilgrim is nice little rig. Like all boats its a compromise, if you want to do the ICW and short coastal cruises its just the ticket. Trying to "improve" it with all these add on electrohydraulic widgets is just kind of silly. Buy a Nordhavn or Kady Krogen if you want to go to sea. You now just by looking at a Pilgrim 40 it is going to roll the cream right out of your coffee but it is a cool character vsl that does her mission as designed.
Sorry if I offended anyone. No animals or deckhands were harmed during this rant.

 

[FF]

For those that wish to continue with fine looking boats like the Pilgrim should simply look at the many Trumphy houseboats.

They are larger and more comfortable and are also inshore vessels.

Marketing was far more honest in the old days so houseboat was acceptable as a term.

High amounts of power for control/operation are not required for boats that require stability , simply better engineering is needed.

While it might take massive power to force fins into position , a small powered tab ( even a balanced tab as aircraft use) would do the job with finger tip power.

The concept of a powered anti roll centerboard , is quite different from just a centerboard.

Depending on the response time required , a tiller auto pilot electric ram should work fine.

 

[RickB]

the gyros work on everything...the first couple tests and videos were of sportfish with very flat runs aft and square chines....worked like a champ..if you can believe the marketing...

they resist rolling...that is their nature so it doesn't matter the shape if the roll never starts or is severely limited.

I got a demo on a sportsfish during the Fort Lauderdale show last year, all of my skepticism evaporated the moment the "unlock" button was pushed. The things work and they work well. The acceleration app on my iPhone provided proof it was not just my imagination.

 

[brian eiland]

The Pilgrim is nice little rig. Like all boats its a compromise, if you want to do the ICW and short coastal cruises its just the ticket.

Totally agree with your assessment of what the vessel IS.

Why are you trying to take what is an essentially an inland cruiser and trying to make it suitable for ocean passage type cruisers?

Trying to "improve" it with all these add on electrohydraulic widgets is just kind of silly. Buy a Nordhavn or Kady Krogen if you want to go to sea.

Its not anyone's intention to make it an ocean going vessel, but there will be certain owners with enough funds that will want to add on other goodies. All the more power to them. From a production standpoint it would be wise to stay away from each of these individual request for 'customization' as this can involve a lot of man-hours that might not be covered in the price.

The static fins I mentioned could be added without a great deal of expense,....question is are they effective enough? TBD

 

[brian eiland]

For those that wish to continue with fine looking boats like the Pilgrim should simply look at the many Trumphy houseboats.

They are larger and more comfortable and are also inshore vessels.

I made that analogy already, that the pilgrim designer might have had a photo in front of him of an old Trumpy-Mathis houseboat....ha..ha

While it might take massive power to force fins into position , a small powered tab ( even a balanced tab as aircraft use) would do the job with finger tip power.

The concept of a powered anti roll centerboard , is quite different from just a centerboard.

Depending on the response time required , a tiller auto pilot electric ram should work fine.

I think we are past the point of any consideration of any 'active fins' on this vessel. Just some might want to put a Seakeeper unit onboard. Hey if you can afford it, go for it.

Sure sounds like they work. Sure sounds like they require almost no maintenance.

 

[RickB]

The static fins I mentioned could be added without a great deal of expense,....question is are they effective enough? TBD

Effective enough is purely subjective.

I can tell you that even boats fitted with 4 fins for zero speed stabilization can roll like pigs when the stabilization is off. The fins simply don't have enough area to be noticed. That applies when running at speed or stopped.

 

[psneeld]

Effective enough is purely subjective.

I can tell you that even boats fitted with 4 fins for zero speed stabilization can roll like pigs when the stabilization is off. The fins simply don't have enough area to be noticed. That applies when running at speed or stopped.

Yep.... so bad on my friends 55 Viking MY that the captain who brought it up from Myrtle Beach refused to go the last 15 miles when one stooped working.

Of course static fins would have to be larger and take more engineering etc...etc...and all of a sudden they are as big of a PIA as para-vanes and knock of a knot or so of speed too.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I agree w Sailor of Fortune.

Active stab fins on a shallow draft riverboat like the Pilgrim dosn't seem very appropriate.

 

[Codger2]

WTF? Why are you trying to take what is an essentially an inland cruiser and trying to make it suitable for ocean passage type cruisers?

Sorry if I offended anyone. No animals or deckhands were harmed during this rant.

 

[SaltyDog]

I don't suggest refitting a Pilgrim. It is what it is (preferably what it was).

Using a Pilgrim as the inspiration on a new build, I would give consideration to the roll. Not much more to complain about from me with our one and only.

The roll has come to be less over time, by way of learning how to avoid it. When it does happen it doesn't last long, but I have taken to drinking black coffee. Our home port has a big Sea-Ray dealer. Before the economy tanked the demo 52 seemed to lock in on us, pass by and then return toward the harbor making it impossible to avoid an awakening. I always hope those ignorant/inconsiderate (fill in the blank) get what they are asking for...........blurred photos!

 

[Moonstruck]

The trouble with boats is....

none of them do everything well and the more you try...the worse they get at a bunch of things....

so the headache is defining what will be 75% (arbitrary) or better of your cruising needs and designing to those (an almost impossible task at that)...then refining it to see if you can get more without severely degrading what you already have...

then the ultimate test....living with what you wind up with because ain't no such thing as the perfect boat...only the perfect boat for you.

That is why you see the name COMPROMISE on the transom of so many boats.

 

[psneeld]

That is why you see the name COMPROMISE on the transom of so many boats.

I don't think the qualities of the boat are in that usage of "compromise" as much as what was given up by both parties to arrive at "THE" compromise.

I wonder if there is a statistical correlation between boats named "Compromise" and divorce....

 

[SaltyDog]

Is Seward a divorce boat name?

 

[Codger2]

Is Seward a divorce boat name?

It is a "folly' when you really think about it.

 

[SaltyDog]

Funny you use the word folly. I grew up on Folly Beach, SC.

 

[Codger2]

Funny you use the word folly. I grew up on Folly Beach, SC.

I knew that! A friend forwarded me some info from the NSA files on you.

 

[healhustler]

Brian: There's at least one Krogen Manatee (sister boat to mine) that has been fitted with these stationary bilge keels, I think about 12 ft. in length. We look forward to having a side-by-side rolling comparison with him. The Manatee has very good initial resistance to roll, but once in a regular beam sea, she gets moving pretty good. It will be interesting to record the differences in roll (if any). There may be an opportunity to do that in the next year or so.

 

[Moonstruck]

Brian: There's at least one Krogen Manatee (sister boat to mine) that has been fitted with these stationary bilge keels, I think about 12 ft. in length. We look forward to having a side-by-side rolling comparison with him. The Manatee has very good initial resistance to roll, but once in a regular beam sea, she gets moving pretty good. It will be interesting to record the differences in roll (if any). There may be an opportunity to do that in the next year or so.

Break/Break: Larry, there is a really good anchorage just North of you between Jewfish Key and Long Boat Key. A good restaurant there that you can access by car or boat. Now back to regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Peter B]

You are going to tell me that pulling/pushing two fins this size sideways thru the water is not going to do anything to slow the roll or dampen it ?? I beg to differ with you!

You might want to think about this a bit more Brian. This thread has done two things. Reminded me of the maintenance saving in not needing antifoul on a trailered boat.
Also that I often noticed back in the days when we sailed a maxi trailer yacht called a Gazelle 26, which had a 400 odd kg electric lifting aerofoil shaped keel, that the roll period was much more snappy when the keel was down than up. I suspect for two reasons. One, the righting force was greater with it down, and two, the waves exerted more rolling force when it hit the keel as it passed underneath. Contrast this with the stated reason in the info re the Great Harbour designs as to why they don't roll as much as you would think, because their broad beam, and flat bottom and relatively shallow draft means they sort of ride up and over the wave, (? Like a rubber ducky), rather than being 'tripped' into a more exaggerated roll, by the wave catching underwater projections. At least that was my take on it, from the designers description, and I can visualise how that might well be, especially in light of how our yacht behaved. It was of course with the sails all furled and at anchor, say, fishing. On the move with sails up different story, although the roll period was still slower with the keel retracted.

 

[AusCan]

I agree with what you are saying Pete.
With my bilge keels, I get very little rolling from on board disturbances. The bilge keels certainly help that. They perhaps reduce the effect of a wake with a once only force.
But with a beam sea, I am not so sure they are effective. They may even make the rolling more pronounced if the swell is in synch with the boats natural roll timing.
The only way to tell for sure is a side by side comparison.

 

[brian eiland]

Direct Comparision

Brian: There's at least one Krogen Manatee (sister boat to mine) that has been fitted with these stationary bilge keels, I think about 12 ft. in length. We look forward to having a side-by-side rolling comparison with him. The Manatee has very good initial resistance to roll, but once in a regular beam sea, she gets moving pretty good. It will be interesting to record the differences in roll (if any). There may be an opportunity to do that in the next year or so.

That will be interesting to hear about.

 

[brian eiland]

Interesting observations from another subject thread on this forum.

Boy you all sure do get snippy about windows!,
I do know that the outward slanted pilot house windows reduce the glare from INSIDE the bridge at night from all the instrument /electronics lighting making it possible to see through the windows better. Volunteer had the vertical windows that looked right on a old fish boat, but piloting at night was a big issue because of the reflected light made them work like heads up displays.
Regarding the bottom on the steel boats by Bill Breeze all the boats he built had the same style bottom as the Pacific Song.. they are the same type bottom as most of the seiner's built in steel... and most definitely seaworthy!

...and another related one

We have one of the few boats that were offered in two different windshield styles. I submit that it the actual positioning of the helm and its distance from the windshield may have had something to do with Jim Krogen offering the North-Sea style windshield, even though there were only six built. I can only speak about the "differences" in the two styles as they relate to our experience here in Florida. Here are some of the things we noted by being aboard other visiting Manatees at our dock. These were all experienced cruisers and half the comments came from them.

1. In evening cruises, the lack of instrument glare is something we appreciate over over our previous boats.
2. When hosting other Manatee owners here at our dock, they are stricken by the contrast of sun and heat while standing at the totally shaded helm.
3. We've got kind-of a tropical sea-bird issue here (I mean some really big birds) and we've escaped the bird doo-doo problem of our neighbors.
4. When the boat is idle, no windshield cover is necessary to prevent UV effects in the boat, especially at the helm and chart table areas.
5. Underway in full sunshine, there's no reflection off the white areas of the helm. Sunglasses are rarely needed.
6. Wind pushes rain down the windshield rather than up.
7. Even in driving rain, we haven't felt a need for wipers.
8. The high pressure area created with the air-trap at the base of the windshield greatly facilitates ventilation through the intake ducts system on the front of the pilothouse.
9. In our humid climate, when standing at the helm, the conventional model's windshield is very close to the forehead. Air flow to defrost or dry the windshield is directed into the eyes. With the North-Sea style, those air currents are 3 ft. away and going the opposite direction.

A few disadvantages:
1. Turning-on overhead lights in the pilothouse reflect in the windshield.
2. In Northern, cool climates, there would be little sun-warming effect.
3. Sky watching is greatly reduced, and occasional glances out the pilothouse doors might be necessary during weather.
4. A higher mast is necessary to run mast support stays forward to bow.

It should be noted that 93 out of 99 of the boats were ordered with the conventional style, including Jim Krogen's own original Manatee. My Admiral and I know we already have a style challenged vessel, but we do prefer the North-Sea option, even if it is probably the prime example of wannabee windows on the site. For where and how we use the boat, it fits our needs better. Had the helm been located further back in the house, like the 42, for example, it may not make any difference.

 

[SaltyDog]

This might be an idea of what it would look like in steel.

 

[brian eiland]

CNC cut metal panels

Back to building this boat, and a little word about the steel hull before we move onto the composite superstructure.

.....excerpt
Why steel? It's an inexpensive material, easily fabricated, and very durable. It's a material that inspires confidence in a boat's survivability from mishaps and collisions by both experienced boat owners and newly minted ones.

I would propose that this steel hull could be built in a 'frameless fashion'.
http://5psi.net/index.php?q=node/11


View attachment 22059

View attachment 22060


As noted the computer cut steel panels are welded-up together while supported by this external jig-frame. Then the internal framing members (stringers, frames, bulkheads) can be added as deemed necessary. I've attached another photo example of a bulkhead with stringers. I think the Pilgrim design could get along fine with 5 of these major bulkhead types tying the hull sides together, and supporting the thick sandwich-cored deck I wish to place on top of their upper edges.

View attachment 22061


Note that the welded-up hull, with the bulkheads all installed, could remain in the jig-frame fixture while the engine and other equips are being installed (no deck is installed yet). The deck piece, and then major cabin superstructure, could actually be assembled on another part of the shop floor and then brought over and placed onto the assembled hull.


There are several other advantages to this steel hull idea. You will note that I mention 'computer cut panels' of steel. This not only shortens the time of construction of the steel hull, it also makes it a potential kit-boat candidate.

It has yet another potential benefit. Unlike a fiberglass hull where I am married to a single bottom design, I can change this hull's bottom design readily if something new looks feasible.

...from another forum...

One of my builders has help build scores of CAD:CNC cut alloy boats. We have recently built 7 in our own workshop. All of these craft were drafted by one particular draftsman who is now an expert. He had the opportunity to check his work on the floor over many years. His boats just fall together. Fold lines are marked and I recall a horizontal pipe orifice within an angled plate that was cut perfectly. If one had to cut the plates by hand construction time would be trebled, in my view.
M

 

[brian eiland]

Composite Superstructure Considerations

There are any number of notable ship constructions where a lighter-weight superstructure has been sought out for a basic metal hull. Alum topsides over a steel hull comes to mind for a number of larger yachts and navy vessels. Creative bonding techniques have had to be invented for these cases. Likewise the joining of composite superstructures onto steel hulls requires creative thinking about both the mechanical and the 'chemical' bonding of these two very different materials.

I use the word 'chemical' in the sense of adhesion. There are any number of mechanical methods of bonding that are conventional in manner. It's the adhesive bonding that is continuously under development with ever-stronger, greater adhesion products. I think we are currently at a point that we have a number of very good adhesive products that can join our composite superstructures to our steel hulls with extreme confidence.

My thoughts are this 'transition' from steel to composite should take place at the hull-to-deck interface, rather than at the deck to cabin superstructure joint. In other words I favor a composite deck, ...more specifically a sandwich-cored composite deck onto which the rest of the cabin/superstructure is attached.

I've witnessed years and years of sandwich cored composite constructions. Basically it boils down to using 3 types of cores;
1) balsa,
2) various foams, and
3) honeycombs of either alum, Nomex, or polypropylene.
Generally the balsa cores have won out over the foams for deck fabrications due to their greater stability under the extremes of tropical heating. But balsa cores have a significant history of susceptibility to rot from water penetration at various hardware attachments and migration of water along the core-to-skin bond line.

Alum & Nomex honeycombs are a little pricey, and extra care must be exercised to obtain a good bond with the very 'thin edges' of the honeycomb chambers. Polypropylene honeycomb however has a fiberglass cloth scrim thermo-fused to its cell structure,...a very consistent bonding that doesn't provide voids for water to migrate across. This 'scrim layer' in turn provides a 100% bonding surface for the fiberglass skins to be applied to. And the polypropylene material itself is totally rot proof in the case of any water penetration.

I've come to the conclusion that this 'polypropylene honeycomb core material' is the best choice for my composite decks and superstructures. Poly-core is one name the Aussi's and NZ boat builders term it. They actually pre-fab sheet panels (akin to sheets of plywood) of these materials in a controlled environment, and subsequently computer cut those sheets into specific panels that will be joined together to form a structure, a bulkhead, a deck section, a cabin side, etc., Here is one example
*Polycore Composites - Polycore Australia - Polycore Honeycomb

*Nida-Core Lightweight Composite Honeycomb Core Materials and Structures and

*Plascore - Honeycomb Cores ? Honeycomb Panels Products
are two polypropylene honeycombs better know in the American market.

For reference here are a couple of other pre-fab panels utilized by these kit boat designers in Australia and the Asia. But these panels utilize balsa or foam at their cores.
*Boat Construction | Lightweight Building Panels | Architectural Panels

*DuraKore® - ATL COMPOSITES

 

[brian eiland]

Some have asked, 'why not an all steel vessel rather than mix in composite structures'?? As you pointed out in your note (a steel boat builder) above, the steel decks can be more problematic than the hulls.

Neither the steel decks, nor the steel cabin sides/structures are by nature insulated. Also one must add in a substructure (battens, etc) to these metal skin panels to both get a decent attachment for the interior finishing panels, and to get a non-moisture condensing, insulated interior.

The cored composite panel decks and superstructure are already self-insulating and non-condensing by their nature. As a bare necessity the inner surfaces of these composite panels could be simply painted a pleasing color, or a decorative wall covering fabric glued on, or wood panel/trim can be glued on.

 

[CPseudonym]

I may have missed it but what is the proposed thickness of the hull plating?

I "get" the mechanical bonding of steel to composite. Two issues I'm still unsure of are the chemical bond strength and sealing the hull/deck transition joint. Thermal expansion/contraction rate differences could present a problem. I've seen plastic to steel interfaces where the plastic was essentially slowly sawed through over time due to this problem. Perhaps an apples and oranges comparison but it illustrates my concern.

 

[brian eiland]

I may have missed it but what is the proposed thickness of the hull plating?

5mm, maybe even 6mm, depending on the final shape of the bottom, and the recommendations of the collaborating NA. Give favor to the thicker sizes as much of the remainder of the vessel will be relatively lt-weight.

 

[brian eiland]

I "get" the mechanical bonding of steel to composite. Two issues I'm still unsure of are the chemical bond strength and sealing the hull/deck transition joint. Thermal expansion/contraction rate differences could present a problem. I've seen plastic to steel interfaces where the plastic was essentially slowly sawed through over time due to this problem. Perhaps an apples and oranges comparison but it illustrates my concern.

I'm proposing that the deck will be made up of a relatively thick piece of honeycomb panel with appropriate fiberglass skins on either side. This deck will sit down on top of those 5 metal bulkheads with their flat tops that stretch across the hull from gunnel to gunnel....like this pic...


Those athwartships metal frames should add a lot of stiffness to the hull structure, tie the upper edges of the hull skins together, and check some of the thermal expansion/contraction differences. The one-piece PP honeycomb deck will sit on top of these bulkhead flat-tops and the deck shelf at hull interface.

Per a recommendation by a steel boat designer.

Composite decks whether plywood or cored GRP are attached the same way. there is what's called a deck shelf say 400mm wide runs around the deck edge and is welded to the hull plate, it should be hot zinc sprayed epoxied and then bedded in sealant. The composite deck fits over the shelf and is bolted down while the sealant is still uncured, part of the shelf is left exposed as a gutter ( never take it all the way to the bulwark) . Cored GRP decks are reduced to a single thicker skin in the interface.
The cons of GRP is a completely different thermal expansion coefficient so the attachment has to be considered an "expansion" join and colors should be white, white or white

(Brian noted: I still want to question if I can bring the PP cored deck all the way over to the hull skin and bed it into a nice mixture of advanced adhesive)

For a significant number of years now they have been gluing decks to hulls without any other fasteners. Plexas product comes to mind most immediately. These are methacrylate adhesives, and there are now a good number of these super adhesives on the market. So those products are prime candidates for joining our decks to hulls.

There are other good candidates for our adhesion problems,...what are known as 'toughened epoxies', or could be referred to as 'rubber toughened epoxies'. Here is what one builder said about one particular product he utilized.

Here in new Zealand there is a flexible type of epoxy that is just what the doctor orded for that type of work (Delemma-Hull to deck joint). It's an epoxy ,semi flexible, sticks like nothing I have ever used before , has a long working time is easy to use and easy to clean up, we did all the 8 deck and transom joins on the match racing boats I made in South Korea .There was no fastenings at all through the decks they were just glued and not even glassed on the inside!! The outside we had a 5mm groove between the deck and the hull as the squash out area and just coved it and took off the surplus and that was it !!.....Fantastic stuff


HPR25 ,comes in 2 colors ,white or black , its 2 to 1 mix is easy to use , its made by Adhesive Technologies ltd here in Auckland NZ . Its is west system resin based so has a good reputation . The 36 ft match racing yachts we were making had the decks and the internal floor grid over the keel stub socket ,that included the mast step was also stuck down with HPR25 . The boat in a fully finished condition was lifted from its cradle into the water each day on one single pin that went through the FIBREGLASS floor grid and had a STAINLESS STEEL yoke attached to the lifting strap from the crane

ADHESIVE TECHNOLOGIES - Epoxy Resin and associated products for boat building, industry & home

One thing to keep in mind, these 'tough adhesives' get a lot of their toughness from being somewhat pliant (not brittle). Likewise the PP honeycomb material and panels are pliant (ductile). These characteristics work together to make a really TOUGH product.

 

[FF]

Not sure what advantage in incorperating rusting steel into a GRP boat would be.

For low cost one off GRP core hulls , this is a proven system.

Booklet Explaining KSS Boat Building Method - Kelsall Catamarans

www.kelsall.com/UniqueKSS/WhatIsKSS.pdf‎