Ranger Tug vs. Nordic vs. American Tug

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I believe the thinking is that "the most boat for a given price" may be larger, but is likely to be older. This makes it harder and riskier to determine condition at purchase, and may introduce higher maintenance costs just due to age and usage.

My point was, given the same quality and condition, larger boats will cost more to operate, may be harder to handle, and may limit access to some areas when cruising the Great Loop. Why buy into that if a smaller boat meets your needs?

Which is all I was trying to point out in the beginning...just make sure your needs are met in the size you are buying...dreams cloud reality...

Almost EVERY boater except for a few TFers I've met have nowhere the boating experience that a VERY, VERY few have. When they sit down with someone that has tens of thousands of serious cruising miles experience and liveaboard experience...usually it is a jaw dropping session when all the little things most boaters take for granted are discussed. It's because they do all that crap at home...well.... when home is thousands of miles away...all of a sudden these little things become important when deciding on a boat.

Sure there's compromise...but even something that many take for granted....like spreading out some simple little project...for example making a screen for a 4 foot by 2 foot window. When someone else is living aboard with you...where do you spread out to put it all together without being totally in the way of everyday life/needs?

Sure some smart guy is going to say how easy it is...I'm counting on those that spend a lot of their time aboard their boat with not even a car in the parking lot to store anything in to chime in to the reality of long term, long distance cruising or living aboard.
 
Are you going to cruise moving every day or linger in the same spot for days at a ti

If your cruising harbor to harbor, moving constantly, the smallest boat makes a lot of sense. if you are living on the boat and spending a lot of your time actually on the boat then the bigger the better. You can anchor out and explore by dingy or dingy to the dock from a bigger boat. In my mind there really is two types of cruising, one under the constraints of time and the goal of making the passage. The other is the journey, where time on the water and the act of cruising is the end in itself. Small fast boats offer the best choice for cruising under a time line. The ICW has been down with 16' outboards and pontoon boats. if this isn't the goal, get the biggest boat you can afford, because they all shrink when put in water. Bigger boats are more comfortable in poor anchorages and allow you to bring toys like bicycles, kayaks, and dingys large enough pull water skiers. That Ranger 29 on a trailer , or 27 Sea Sport, or an Osprey, maybe even a Sea Dory would be ideal if you plan on spending every night in a harbor. If your planning on really living on a boat start with 36' and go up. Anything smaller is a compromise. In fact I like 48' small enough to handle alone and big enough for privacy.
 
I believe the thinking is that "the most boat for a given price" may be larger, but is likely to be older. This makes it harder and riskier to determine condition at purchase, and may introduce higher maintenance costs just due to age and usage.

My point was, given the same quality and condition, larger boats will cost more to operate, may be harder to handle, and may limit access to some areas when cruising the Great Loop. Why buy into that if a smaller boat meets your needs?

Within reason, size is not a limitation when doing the loop. Yes your 34 AT is nice, but it is not the only duck in the pond. Years ago we had friends who did the loop twice in their steel CC Roamer, no a small boat by any means. Met some nice folks this year who did it in their Sabre 48.

Having done the loop in stages part way only in larger power boats (did the Atlantic portion offshore in a large sailboat), if I were to do it again it would be in a 30' Grady White with big outboards. Thirty knots sounds about right.
 
Within reason, size is not a limitation when doing the loop. Yes your 34 AT is nice, but it is not the only duck in the pond. Years ago we had friends who did the loop twice in their steel CC Roamer, no a small boat by any means. Met some nice folks this year who did it in their Sabre 48.

Having done the loop in stages part way only in larger power boats (did the Atlantic portion offshore in a large sailboat), if I were to do it again it would be in a 30' Grady White with big outboards. Thirty knots sounds about right.

I always thought it would be fun to change up every once and awhile...cruise at 30-50 and stay in waterside hotels/motels/B&Bs. Doing it in a smaller boat it may shift expenses in different ways....especially if you really planned your stops...obviously they would be much fewer but you could have some pretty good flexibility if covering 2-300 miles a day.:eek:
 
Within reason, size is not a limitation when doing the loop. Yes your 34 AT is nice, but it is not the only duck in the pond. Years ago we had friends who did the loop twice in their steel CC Roamer, no a small boat by any means. Met some nice folks this year who did it in their Sabre 48.

Having done the loop in stages part way only in larger power boats (did the Atlantic portion offshore in a large sailboat), if I were to do it again it would be in a 30' Grady White with big outboards. Thirty knots sounds about right.

Yes you can do the loop in boats well over 50 ft, but size, height and draft are limitations and will limit the extent of the trip and side many trips.

Examples:

Absolute height limit of 19.7 ft to get from Lake MI into the Illinois River, 17 ft height limit to go through downtown Chicago, or up the Champlain Canal.

In the Trent-Severn, minimum depths are 6 ft, but if you are over 5 ft you must contact the Waterway Office. Many boaters report touching bottom under 6 ft.

The river system center channel is dredged to a 9 ft minimum, but the interesting anchorages can be 4-5 ft, and many entrances under 4 ft. Likewise, there are areas on the Atlantic ICW, especially near inlets, that may shoal in to under 3 ft and this would not be reflected on the charts.

The small boat channel in the Georgian Bay has some depth and turning limitations which causes larger (say over 40 ft) to have to run outside in the Bay.

We stayed overnight in over 125 marinas, and at least 2/3 of those would not have a spot for boats over 50 ft and very limited spots for boats over 40 ft. Also, many of these do not have 50 amp power and some only a few 30 amp outlets.

I could tell you several stories about twin gas boats with exposed props having to be hauled for prop/shaft/rudder repairs.

------------------------------------

Again, I am not trying to sell the AT 34 or say it is the best boat for everyone who wants to loop. However, some of its attributes certainly make for a more flexible and less risky trip, and make it more suited to and fit for the purpose of looping. If I were buying a boat to live on full time, it wouldn't be the AT 34, and I could probably still do the loop.
 
I chose the NT over the AT for 2 reasons. Price and the second stateroom. Price aside, the second stateroom was a requirement for me. But NT does off the 37 without the second stateroom and a larger master stateroom and head, if I am not mistaken. IIRC, there is a nt37 that has done the loop for sale.
But I agree, both are great boats. I think the AT is a little bit more flashy on the inside than the NT.

Personally a ranger would be too small for us and i think my kids would break all the swiss army type gadgets they have installed in them. But it is an impressive and handsome boat. I understand why they are so popular.

The OP could fly to Bellingham and charter them both for a few days consecutively to see which one he likes better. The money you spend chartering them will pale in comparison to ownership costs. While you are there you can see dozens of them for sale as well.
 
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I like the AT/NT vessels such as pictured (second choices), but I insist on wide walk-around decks and railings.

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One of the biggest hassles with a big boat is the builders usually chose NOT to remind customers of non smooth days, away from the slip.

Very few large cabins have enough handholds to not be thrown from bulkhead to bulkhead when it kicks up a bit.
 
Mark,
Great Nordic Tug picture. And judging by her wake the engine is probably singing a nice tune.

Re your notions about railings and side decks neither one of us can have an NT. Too much money for me and a NT w side decks would have a tiny cabin like my W30 or be a real barge of a boat. Eighteen foot beam?

Look at the wasted space on Willy.
 

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Eric, with 13-foot beam, having 18-inch-wide decks still allow lots of interior room in the Coot.
 
Boat size?

I know that this thread kind of petered out and the OP probably has gone out and bought a catamaran;) Some of the comments about boat size have been niggling at my brain.

First off I haven't done the great loop and my wife and I aren't going to live on our Ranger 29. However we did spend 3 weeks bopping around the PNW on it and I don't remember any complaints about feeling crowded as one of the other posters suggested they would be. I suppose two things were factors: we came from a smaller boat (C-Dory 25) and we tend to get off the boat and walk around wherever we go.

The other thing that comes to mind is our approach to recreation in general. For us the ideal vehicle to travel around the country with would be a camper - good size with a comfortable bed - but a camper. I'm thinking that the 40 foot boat people would like a 38 foot motorhome with pop-outs. Not necessarily bad but a different approach.

Lastly as far as my "smallest boat that takes care of your needs" comment. I may be a relative newby to boating (7 years of boat ownership), I'm not a newby to life and I think that for one or two of us that isn't a bad philosophy.

Thanks for the forum.

Jeff

P.S. I talked to several experienced boat mechanics before I bought the boat and they really like the Yanmars so pbthhh! :rolleyes:
 
I like the Ranger 29. The sleeping arrangements are much better than my R27. I did fall in love with the Nordic 32 though. The cockpit is small and pretty much useless for hanging out, but then again we would have the "back porch" up top. The fuel economy is very similar although the R29 does go faster. I appreciate al the responses and I do have some time to make a "mature" decision. I agree that the Yanmar is a good engine. This is the second boat I had with a Yanmar and I love the dependability.

But, I did hear something recently by a good source. When you change the impeller on the R27, you have to jack up a corner of the engine to get to one of the bolts. I really hope he is wrong!

Chester
 
I know that this thread kind of petered out and the OP probably has gone out and bought a catamaran;) Some of the comments about boat size have been niggling at my brain.

First off I haven't done the great loop and my wife and I aren't going to live on our Ranger 29. However we did spend 3 weeks bopping around the PNW on it and I don't remember any complaints about feeling crowded as one of the other posters suggested they would be. I suppose two things were factors: we came from a smaller boat (C-Dory 25) and we tend to get off the boat and walk around wherever we go.

The other thing that comes to mind is our approach to recreation in general. For us the ideal vehicle to travel around the country with would be a camper - good size with a comfortable bed - but a camper. I'm thinking that the 40 foot boat people would like a 38 foot motorhome with pop-outs. Not necessarily bad but a different approach.

Lastly as far as my "smallest boat that takes care of your needs" comment. I may be a relative newby to boating (7 years of boat ownership), I'm not a newby to life and I think that for one or two of us that isn't a bad philosophy.

Thanks for the forum.

Jeff

P.S. I talked to several experienced boat mechanics before I bought the boat and they really like the Yanmars so pbthhh! :rolleyes:


Hey..a lot of cowboys lived out of saddlebags and loved life.

Of course fresh underware, more than 100 rounds of ammo and enough loose change to buy enough wiskey till the next cattle drive was all they cared about.

Most comments from liveaboards and long term cruisers about buying bigger come from the experience or the lifestyle that requires a few things beyond the basics.

I like to fish...plus it supplements the menu...so a locker full of rods, reels, lures, etc..iis necessary.

I also like scuba/snorkeling and the gear necessary to do underwater repairs...there's another fairly large locker.

Then I like a well equipped dingy...another fill locker.

I also like doing my own work...so there's and engine room full of tools and spares.

Then if on a budget...you tend to buy food, alcohol and all consumables at a good price and need to store them...lots more room.

Also come clothes..depending on your cruising grounds and time of year...WOW...that can fill up the average 29 footer just in that category alone...

Yep...the people out there doing it and "been there done that" know that you can do the loop in a canoe....but most of us say...get the bigger boat...(to a point) you won't regret it.

I lived on much smaller boats with my last being a 37 Sportfish...the current boat is bigger with WAYYYYY more storage....I learned my lesson.

And another thing...as a liveaboard...who always seems to host the parties, dinners, get togethers...etc...etc...it's rarely the 29 footer...it's usually the much bigger boat because tripping over 3 people to get to the beer cooler just doesn't cut it for ALL YEAR ROUND LIVING......

Now...if you are going to loop in 2-3 week stints...sure, way smaller can be just fine...
 
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Look at the wasted space on Willy.

Eric--- That space is not wasted when you need to be on deck. And a fact everyone seems to overlook is that below the deck level, the cabins go clear out to the hull. In the case of our tri-cabin GB, this means the berths, cabinets, drawers, heads, etc. in both the fore and aft cabins all "enjoy" the full width of the boat. The only cabin that doesn't is the main cabin as it's pretty much at deck level. But we have never found ourselves wishing the main cabin was a bit wider. And we value the nice width of our side decks WAY more than the few inches in width the main cabin might gain if we didn't have them.

Regarding the tug-style boats the original poster was asking about, we have not done the Great Loop and have zero interest in ever doing it. So we don't know what sort of special requirements it might place on a boat's configuration other than there are locks and low bridges to deal with.

There are a few Ranger Tug 29s in our marina, and a good friend has spent part of the last few summers running one around up in the Desolation Sound area. He loves the boat. We've examined an RT29 fairly closely. Our impression is that it's a pretty clever use of space with a lot of cool doo-dads as a previous poster noted, but in terms of size and user volume, it is WAY overpriced.

Nordic Tugs are aesthetically the best of the lot in our opinions. How important aesthetics are to a boat purchase will, of course, vary with every buyer. People actually went out and voluntarily bought Pontiac Aztecs, and no better proof than that is needed to show that aesthetics are solely in the eye of the individual beholder. (That car was perfect "casting" in Breaking Bad, by the way.)

Aesthetically, the American Tug seems quite off-balance to me. However, I've been on a couple of the 34s when they first started appearing on the market, and I have to say that the use of space on that boat is among the best and smartest I've ever seen on any size boat.

I also think the earlier post by David on the Yanmar engine situation is well worth heeding. If the three tugs mentioned by OP were the only choices, we might well be inclined to put the engine selection above aesthetics in making our purchase choice. Unless the boats were very new and we only planned on keeping whichever one we chose long enough to do the Loop.

I suspect one could do the Great Loop in a 17' Grumman canoe and could also do it in a Flemming 55 if it would clear the bridges, and all the other boats in between. But for the OP's three choices, the AT is probably the smartest choice. However, I suspect that, were we facing the same situation, in the end we would select the NT because we place a very high value on the aesthetics of a boat. We'd just keep our fingers crossed on the engine question.:)
 
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Not a tug and not much cabin but side and aft deck I got .:thumb:
 

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The only major shortcoming of the AT34 is the small hanging closet in owner's stateroom (starboard side), if there is a lady on board full time. I dont see any way of enlarging it. There is an identical cabinet on the port side. In my case, that is devoted to canned good storage and dry staples. Some folks opt for storage in the washer/dryer cabinet in the salon. I opted for the non vented washer/dryer. When and if the washer/dryer craps out, I will put a vented washer/dryer with the vent into the cockpit. Note: With the washer/dryer comes the need for a water maker when cruising.
I added 5 custom cabinets, 3 in the galley area, a medicine cabinet in the head and a cabinet in the overhead in the owner's stateroom and recently a hydraulic assist for lifting the owner's berth.
I did not skim on quality of the cabinets. With quality comes a higher price.
I think, I must have the highest quality cabinet work on the east coast of Florida. SMIRK

Ah, one more 'downside'. No vent fan over the stove. I am still thinking that one through. I am leaning towards a SS hood over the stove and a passive vent to the upper deck. I have looked at an RV type vent with 12 vt fan and crank open and close of the vent cover.
I am shying away from that because it requires a 10 inch hole.

Everyone can find something they wished were different or something that needs to be added. It is all about what you can afford. Remember, it's a boat and you will never be able to get your 'improvement' money out of it. The most you can hope for is, the boat will sell faster.
 
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Dan,
I’d be think’in more about hull, engine/s and running gear.
Storage, washer-dryer, cabinets and stove vents are fly stuff to me.

I think the biggest difference is in the weight and beam of these boats. The AT being wide and heavy and the NT being long and narrow.
Could you post (off the top) the beam and displacement of same length boats? The smaller one being most comparable probably.

Re looks I really like the looks of this boat. Especially the very narrow center window frames.
 

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Eric asked me to add the following:

2008 American Tug, documented as a 34.5 ft OAL (Note: today's 34s are documented as 36.5 OAL)
LWL 32' 6"
Beam about 13' 3"
Displacement DRY 18,700 pounds. (Who keeps their boat empty when going cruising?)
Draft 3.5 ft (Obviously varies with fuel, water load and how much additional "stuff" and people we have onboard)

Engine: Cummins QSB 5.9, 380 HP
Generator: Nothern Lights, 6KW
4X4D batteries. 1 designated as the start battery, 3X4D are designated house batteries. (comes standard with 2X4D batteries.)

That being said, my comments were directed at available storage. On a small, full time live aboard boat, storage is, in my mind, is of primary concern and how to increase the existing storage.
 
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Hey thanks Dan,
Looked up on YW and find NT’s are 15 to 16,000lbs w an 11’ beam.
So my suspicion was mostly right w the AT comming in at over two feet more beam. That’s a huge difference. If I was to find a 30’ boat w the same additional beam it would have a beam of about 12’ 9”. I once thought that would be the ideal mod for a W30. To increase the beam to 12’. But not even in my wild dream did I think of pushing 13’.

The weight was also up on the AT but not as much as the beam. About 2000lbs. Maybe the AT has a lighter hull .. from layup schedule or scantlings. ??

I asked Tad Roberts about my 12’ wide 30’ Willard and he didn’t like the idea. The Willard is FD and would hardly suffer at all the increased drag at displacement speeds. And obviously some ballast could be removed. So I could get all that extra room almost free fuel burn wise. Of course that was just a head trip as hacking up my boat and making her 1.5’ wider would be an unthinkable mod re doability. But making her longer would be easy ... like Fales did do.
 
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I asked Tad Roberts about my 12’ wide 30’ Willard and he didn’t like the idea. The Willard is FD and would hardly suffer at all the increased drag at displacement speeds. And obviously some ballast could be removed. So I could get all that extra room almost free fuel burn wise. Of course that was just a head trip as hacking up my boat and making her 1.5’ wider would be an unthinkable mod re doability. But making her longer would be easy ... like Fales did do.

IF you want a larger boat, the cost of extending the boat you have has got to be far more than buying a newer/longer boat. Everything, moving the engine and running gear aft, extending the keel etc is going to be expensive. Plus, you may need a larger engine.
I suggest, sell you current boat and buying a bigger boat.
Plus, your insurance company may not look kindly at having the boat extended.
 
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If someone only wants to try the Loop, there are hundreds of 25-30 ft gas IO and inboards well under $10,000.

All the Loop experience , and no big investment to sell when done.

In some cases $5,000 or $10,000 is only the sales tax on a larger boat.
 
IF you want a larger boat, the cost of extending the boat you have has got to be far more than buying a newer/longer boat. Everything, moving the engine and running gear aft, extending the keel etc is going to be expensive. Plus, you may need a larger engine.
I suggest, sell you current boat and buying a bigger boat.
Plus, your insurance company may not look kindly at having the boat extended.

As I think I said Dan this was just an exercise in theory. To go 12’ wide on my 30’ Willard would be easier to build a new boat .. probably much easier.
However I had longing thoughts of extending Willy at the stern for more speed and efficiency w a larger cockpit and salon. But of course that would be a big job too.
As to a bigger boat I really don’t want one. Always liked smaller boats. They are handy. Actually if I had my choice I’d just find/buy a Willard Voyager built on the same hull as a “wide body” and originally came w/o the FB. HaHa but then I’d be thinking of the stern extension again. Thinking bout things is second nature to me.
But wanting/thinking of a wider boat w was exclusive to FD. A wider boat w a SD or planing hull would have much more drag, require more power, be less efficient and given the same deadrise be more stiff in roll. All around a downer to me. That’s why I like the NT over the AT but it’s just an opinion or “like”. You and many many others like a wider boat w more room in a given length. We all like more room aboard but the price is high. Depending on the many variables.
 
As I think I said Dan this was just an exercise in theory. To go 12’ wide on my 30’ Willard would be easier to build a new boat .. probably much easier.
However I had longing thoughts of extending Willy at the stern for more speed and efficiency w a larger cockpit and salon. But of course that would be a big job too.
As to a bigger boat I really don’t want one. Always liked smaller boats. They are handy. Actually if I had my choice I’d just find/buy a Willard Voyager built on the same hull as a “wide body” and originally came w/o the FB. HaHa but then I’d be thinking of the stern extension again. Thinking bout things is second nature to me.
But wanting/thinking of a wider boat w was exclusive to FD. A wider boat w a SD or planing hull would have much more drag, require more power, be less efficient and given the same deadrise be more stiff in roll. All around a downer to me. That’s why I like the NT over the AT but it’s just an opinion or “like”. You and many many others like a wider boat w more room in a given length. We all like more room aboard but the price is high. Depending on the many variables.

Eric, just break down, sell the house, sell your children into slavery, tell the wife to behave or else, and buy a bigger boat.
 
Thank you for "chiming" in because the features that you cite are certainly the ones that really matter to us. It seems the AT 365 is one of the few boats with 1 big cabin and larger head. Most boats we have seen sacrifice features for that 2nd berth...as AT has done with the 362. Comparing the two boat models on the AT site is eye opening! Captain said, "even fuel is reduced to take more passengers, which is a bit oxymoronic." The pictures make it look so roomy. I need to get onboard one in person. Our friends have a 36' NT so we've been able to view it and it is indeed a high quality boat. My tastes run more toward the American or Ranger tugs.
 
I have not been on an AT362 so I do not know how the 2nd stateroom fits into the real world. One nice thing about a 2nd stateroom is, it makes a mighty fine additional storage space. Sooooo, dont discount even a small 2nd stateroom.
When I bought my AT34/36, the tank room looked huge. I have loaded it up with tools and now, it is small. LOL
The major down side of my 34/36, (in my opinion) is the hanging closet in the stateroom. The under berth area can absorb lots of spare parts etc. I have added hyd assists to raise the mattress. I have also added 4 custom cabinets and a medicine cabinet. Remember the galley area does not have a exhaust fan. Yes, the saloon has 3 sliding windows. I had a stove hood that exhausts outside to the upper deck. I will admit the range hood is over kill and perhaps the custom cabinets could be enlarged a bit but, everything I did was an improvement and went a long way to increasing the available storage.
I used up the big cabinet in saloon with a washer/dryer. I have to learn there are grocery stores pretty much everywhere. I do have a rather large supply of canned goods. The only thing I have not been able to overcome is the hanging closet. When I discussed this with Kurt at American Tug, his recommendation was buy a AT41 or whatever they call it now. LOL
Remember, I think everyone, takes pics with a wide angle lens so, "items in the pictures do not reflect real life." LOL
 
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Is this going to galley up or down?
 

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