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Old 07-29-2020, 06:00 AM   #21
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Hi Hippocampus. As an ex-sailor also, who moved to power, I think most comments above sort of sum up the answers to most of your queries.

For a start, forget righting moments/stability tests etc. Just not applicable to power boats unless designed to be self-righting rescue type boats. You don't have the huge high up pressures of a rig, and don't therefore need a heavy deep keel for stability, and without the rig pressure, too much ballast gives a rather nasty snap type roll period. However, some power vessels have more windage than others, so worth considering, especially for close manoeuvring in windy conditions.

You mostly rely on the major contributions to weight being low in the hull, eg engine(s), batteries, tanks, etc, for passive stability, and the form stability from hull shape as well. If going off-shore active stabilisers for sure. Then it's more a matter of choosing weather windows for longer passages.

The advice re taking pretty much the same tools and spares as you have is pretty good. Meet those parameters, and you're good to go. For a list of prospects meeting the above, and assuming price not too critical, I'd suggest viewing the following...
Kadey Krogen 42' and up...
Grand Banks 46 and up...
Nordhavns, 43 and up...
Selene, ditto...
Fleming 55 and up...
and then there are Hampton and Marlow yachts of various sizes, all built for long passages. Yeah, I have probably over-looked some others as well. Plenty to choose from. Best of luck. Please keep us informed re progress and thoughts and preferences as they evolve. Accompanying someone else when buying a boat is almost as much fun as doing it for oneself, and a lot cheaper...
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Old 07-29-2020, 07:18 AM   #22
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Pituitary adenoma would be my first thought. Get an image and prolactin level.
Love Steve’s boats both power and sail. But like the Artnautica and Arksen everything goes way up on annual budget. A few yards bill by the square ft in response to the increasing number of multi hulls but most still by LOA for monos
Even now with all the computer modeling forecasts are good for 3 days, fair for 5 and a total crapshoot past 7 days. The don’t go is wise advice but unfortunately not always applicable .
Have a question about days work. Our current hull speed is 8.4. In 7 years have maybe two dozen 200+ mile days. All occurred on sporty days with wind abaft the mast and occasional surfing. I know I can count on high sixes/low 7s and provision accordingly. How does it work for power? Do you enjoy surfing or does the drogue come out? Do you run at 2/3 to 3/4 peak rpm and use boat speed at those settings to calculate average days work? How to you go through the exercise of provisioning? Are stated ranges by manufacturers accurate?
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Old 07-29-2020, 07:30 AM   #23
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Flipping to power as the expected program has changed. Use will be less so can’t justify prior budget. This generates two additional questions.
How old is too old. I’ve taken 30-40 year old Hinckleys, aged Hylas and even Tayana on blue water passage without a thought.
Is it the same for power? Is a good stick built old boat more capable than a new large run production boat? Are decades old Norhavn and KK worth looking at?
Was brought up with KISS( keep it simple stupid) preferring naturally aspirated to turbo. Turbo to common rail. Is this true?
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Old 07-29-2020, 07:38 AM   #24
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10 year old anything depends on who well it has been maintained.
Bought an 8 year old nordhavn, spent money on everything but the engine.
My n46 hull had a problem with blisters. Peeled the hull once, approx. 8 years later, patched the few bubbles that appeared.
Just when I was getting ready for a cruise to Mexico, the yard dropped it and poked the port stabilizer into the owner's stateroom, constructive loss. BUMMER
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Old 07-29-2020, 07:44 AM   #25
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...yard dropped it and poked the port stabilizer into the owner's stateroom, constructive loss. BUMMER

OUCH!!! Just curious. Did you ever find out what happened to it? Sold as salvage by the insurance company? Repaired??
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Old 07-29-2020, 08:03 AM   #26
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The first boat I'd recommend, and then serve as a baseline comparison for others is the Nordhavn 52. Check out the MV Dirona website for lots of information on what may likely be the penultimate documented cruising couple and their time aboard an N52.

The Nordhavn website has considerable information to peruse on all their models as well as brokerage listings. I've spent time on several N52s and came close to a new order a few years ago.
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Old 07-29-2020, 08:14 AM   #27
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OUCH!!! Just curious. Did you ever find out what happened to it? Sold as salvage by the insurance company? Repaired??
Yard ape thought he could move a jack without installing a new jack first. Fell over. Sold for salvage, was repaired, cruised for at least 2 more years and put up for sale. This owner spent money repairing the hull but did not reset the windows so a lot of internal teak damage.
Mechanically, perfect boat when I had it...... ready to "fly", exterior.... needed a total paint job. Interior.... some teak damage but, minimal..... It was a sound boat. I spent big bucks rebuilding the fwd stateroom to allow my 'then' wife to bring most of her home closet to the boat .... full length cedar line closet and lots of drawers on starboard side..... raised the berth port side for additional storage. Bow thruster, increased it by a factor or 3. She was READY!!!
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Old 07-29-2020, 09:01 AM   #28
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Have a question about days work. Our current hull speed is 8.4. In 7 years have maybe two dozen 200+ mile days. All occurred on sporty days with wind abaft the mast and occasional surfing. I know I can count on high sixes/low 7s and provision accordingly. How does it work for power? Do you enjoy surfing or does the drogue come out? Do you run at 2/3 to 3/4 peak rpm and use boat speed at those settings to calculate average days work? How to you go through the exercise of provisioning? Are stated ranges by manufacturers accurate?
In 2004, I did the Baja Ha Ha aboard a friend's Willard 40 full displacement trawler. We were one of four powerboats in a 160 boat fleet with an average length around 42-feet or so. It's a 800 nms / 3-leg rally from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas, though we continued to La Paz afterwards. Rally start is timed for decent, predictable weather over the stern. We averaged just under 7.5 kts and were one of the first boats to finish each leg, with only the few sleds in the fleet arriving ahead of us (one particularly nice SC52 comes to mind....). The Willard 40 will not see 200 nms in a 24-hour run without a Huey Chopper lift, but it will do 175-180 nm days towards its destination 80% of the time. Frankly, Jimmy Cornell's World Cruising Routes are interesting, but not really applicable to Powerboats. Pilot charts are more relevant.

I have never heard of a powerboat using a drogue. The corkscrewing of following seas can be annoying, but with a strong A/P, acceptable. Personally, when I was delivering, vast majority of my runs were 5+ days non-stop, but they didn't start that way - they started with 300-400 nm runs and if the weather wasn't too bad, I'd keep going. After a while I got the hang of running beach-routes to knock-down a good percentage of the junk and could keep going as long as the boat was watertight for spray. Consequently, I have countless +1000 nm runs, though only a handful of >1500 nms.

You may want to re-think how you approach passagemaking under power. I'm guessing that heading to the Caribbean under sail, you head well offshore on long reaches, then south off the Bahamas to the T&C or Jamaica. In a ocean-capable trawler or motoryacht, you could still go outside, but I'd stay within 50 nms of the capes (respecting the shipping lanes and gulf stream) which gives flexibility if weather turns. Somewhere south, break east towards the Bahamas, then south to Jamaica and then you're in familiar waters of the Caribbean. It's easy to keep the legs under 500 nms, well within wx forecast confidence, even if you head to Panama Canal.

Bottom line is that what you're probably doing now at 1000+ nms legs would likely be broken into 300-500 nm legs, and even that's long. I'd guess that except for Nordhavn/Selene/KK/similar owners, the percentage of cruisers who have done +500 nm cruises are pretty low.

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Old 07-29-2020, 09:37 AM   #29
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No power boat will be as comfortable in heavy weather as a sailboat.
No power boat has an adequate rudder compared to a sailboat.
An observation: my n46 had hyd stabilizers, rough weather headed south outside east coast, sheets of green water against the pilot house windows, worried the professional captain, I laughed and told him to go back to bed. It was rather comfortable and exciting for a couple of hours but, we more than survived.... broke the yoke cooking a fried egg.
Autopilot came though like a champ.
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Old 07-29-2020, 10:42 AM   #30
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Usually leave either Newport or chessie and next stop is BVI or Antigua. Go south of Bermuda but don’t stop there. Straight shot is so much quicker. Don’t need to fight trades or follow the gentleman’s way. Usually takes 8-12 days. Don’t like the leewards as much as the windwards. Like Bequia a lot.
I’ve never cruised the Bahamas. Have 6’6” empty. Been there by boat twice. A delivery from southwest harbor Maine to man of war cay. That was on a Morris done as a straight shot. And once on a sistership to chicken harbor from USVIs.
So the way to go is
Active fins over fish
Hydraulics over electric (thrusters, fins, AP etc.)
A 30 year old N46,47, 50 is okay if kept up.

?opinions about metal? Most high lat sail is Al. Steel Puffins and Waterlines are well thought of. Also looking at some Steve Seaton.
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Old 07-29-2020, 11:45 AM   #31
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Usually leave either Newport or chessie and next stop is BVI or Antigua. Go south of Bermuda but don’t stop there. Straight shot is so much quicker. Don’t need to fight trades or follow the gentleman’s way. Usually takes 8-12 days. Don’t like the leewards as much as the windwards. Like Bequia a lot.
I’ve never cruised the Bahamas. Have 6’6” empty. Been there by boat twice. A delivery from southwest harbor Maine to man of war cay. That was on a Morris done as a straight shot. And once on a sistership to chicken harbor from USVIs.
So the way to go is
Active fins over fish
Hydraulics over electric (thrusters, fins, AP etc.)
A 30 year old N46,47, 50 is okay if kept up.

?opinions about metal? Most high lat sail is Al. Steel Puffins and Waterlines are well thought of. Also looking at some Steve Seaton.
My experience in the Caribbean/Atlantic stops at Florida, and even then it's not much - just dropping boats and flying home so I don't know the wx patterns. But looking at the charts, first thing that comes to mind is head south to 50-100 nms off Cape Hatteras (Gulf Stream would be something that needs to be figured out). Would add about 300 nms to the trip to BVI but would give options, and you wouldn't show up in BVI needing 800 gals @ Shylock prices.

As far as stabilization, I just replaced mine with new Wesmars. Having push-button control is nice, but if you're really planning on 1500-nm jaunts from Newport to BVI, I'd go with paravanes because they are simpler and more reliable, plus give flopper stopper stability at anchor. Downside is they are manual set/retrieve, though there are normally winches with knee-activated switches to keep your hands free. But you can't run inlets with them out so the tradeoff is convenience (hydraulic) vs simplicity/reliability (fish). But if you're looking at older boats, the decision will already be made for you as it will be equipped already. Not unusual to find a Nordhavn with both Paravanes and Naiads (ABT).

Yes on hydraulics. In my opinion, ABT is the best in the business for this sized thruster and paravane setup.

As far as N46 vs N47 vs N50, I have delivered a handful of both the N46 and N47 from Dana Point to PNW, albeit almost 20-years ago. I have not delivered an N50, but have delivered several N57's, her bigger sister. Not many N50s were made compared to the N46/N47 so options are limited. They are reportedly a relatively fast boat.

In my opinion, the flybridge on the N46/N47 (if equipped) alters the handling considerably. With the flybridge, these boats must be run with stabilizers in all but calm conditions. Best I can tell, few N46's had flybridges, most N47s do, so again, options may be limited. Flybridge sure would be nice in Bahamas.

The N46 is legendary as it absolutely changed long distance powerboating. But she's a relatively small boat for her LOA. Engine room is a bit cramped and the fuel tanks were positioned quite a ways aft so she squats a bit when fully loaded (them moved the fuel tanks late in the production run).

I believe it was with the N50 that PAE introduced their "Maintenance Strakes" which are hull-bump-outs either side of the engine to provide near-standing headroom. At the time, PAE said they actually improved efficiency which is hogwash, but the benefit in the ER is clear and compelling even if there is a fractional efficiency loss. The N47 has a decent engine room and lazarette with plenty of room for equipment. She also benefits from the many, many advances PAE made as a result of their around-the-world run with the N40 around 2000. On the downside, I find the boat a bit slow and the windage means shes even slower in weather. What's slow? 175-180 nm days (in all fairness, N46 is about the same). I would expect the N50 to do a consistent 200 nm day, or at least close.

All good boats. Personally, only because I have such respect for the N57, I'd probably hold-out for an N50 even though I haven't spent any time on one. But, as I insinuated at the outset of this now-long post, I wouldn't do the direct run to BVI - I would minimize risk and only add 1-1/2 days to the 9-day trip by following the coast with a bail-out plan if wx looks lousy. I don't mind a bit of bad weather - have powered through a bunch. But I once spent 5 of 7 days beating my way up the Atlantic/Gulf from Panama to Florida in 25-30 kt winds and short 8-footers and it sucked. A day or so is fine if it gets you to the other side of something, but for vacation time, not my cup of tea. But to each their own.

Hope this helps. Best of luck with your decisions. Given I'm behind a keyboard, nice to live vicariously - thanks Dr H

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Old 07-29-2020, 01:04 PM   #32
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See the big change in thinking is propulsion on a sailboat is virtually unlimited. One wants to reach or run. Coming home from the windwards island hopping is quite reasonable. You’re going with the trades. Have done BVI then north of abacos then Newport non stop. Don’t like stopping. Either at Bermuda going south or anywhere going north.
Getting to the islands it isn’t reasonable to stay on the shelf. Gulf Stream is against you then the trades are against you. When weather gets snotty dealing with rages or compression zones isn’t safe. Only real deep water is north off PR. It’s often a struggle to get to I-65 ( 65E). Gentlemen don’t beat to Windward. Sure the engine goes on passing the saragasso or other lulls but with 200g I get to Antigua and usually have enough left for most of the season.
Sailboats going East in the islands typically wait for night to travel. Less wind to fight. Particularly during kite season or Xmas winds. Do powerboats do the same?

Diesel gets much less expensive in Trinidad and even Grenada up to St.Lucia. Venezuela is off limits but hear folks do well in Mexico as well. Buy just before you leave for the next island and no tariff in those places.

I’m a biobor fan as the diesel sits in current and prior boats. Figure turnover in a power vessel is much quicker. What’s the typical additives people use? Is a polishing system required once you’re off the beaten track? Or just bring a lot of racors?
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Old 07-29-2020, 01:58 PM   #33
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See the big change in thinking is propulsion on a sailboat is virtually unlimited. One wants to reach or run. Coming home from the windwards island hopping is quite reasonable. You’re going with the trades. Have done BVI then north of abacos then Newport non stop. Don’t like stopping. Either at Bermuda going south or anywhere going north.
Getting to the islands it isn’t reasonable to stay on the shelf. Gulf Stream is against you then the trades are against you. When weather gets snotty dealing with rages or compression zones isn’t safe. Only real deep water is north off PR. It’s often a struggle to get to I-65 ( 65E). Gentlemen don’t beat to Windward. Sure the engine goes on passing the saragasso or other lulls but with 200g I get to Antigua and usually have enough left for most of the season.
Sailboats going East in the islands typically wait for night to travel. Less wind to fight. Particularly during kite season or Xmas winds. Do powerboats do the same?

Diesel gets much less expensive in Trinidad and even Grenada up to St.Lucia. Venezuela is off limits but hear folks do well in Mexico as well. Buy just before you leave for the next island and no tariff in those places.

I’m a biobor fan as the diesel sits in current and prior boats. Figure turnover in a power vessel is much quicker. What’s the typical additives people use? Is a polishing system required once you’re off the beaten track? Or just bring a lot of racors?
My patch was Pacific Coast. This Florida thing is a bit new to me even though I've been to the Exumas a couple times. But I don't think many powerboaters take the L65 route - there just isn't a reason to (wind is not your friend), few powerboats have the range, and few sailors come with that type of experience. The big decision for most powerboaters (and frankly a lot of sailors) is ICW vs slip outside for the day (occasionally overnight), so not in the same league as what your're asking. I too like long multi-day legs. I pulled up the current Gulf Stream models and there appears to be a decent counter-current near shore which looks interesting, but maybe there are folks who know a reason that's a bad idea outside of simple preference for the protection of the ICW.

There are a ton of threads on diesel fuel treatment. Any of the boats you're looking at will have a solid polishing system. You will get varied opinions, but for my personal boat, I run Stanadyne stabilizer and that's it. No biobor - key is to keep the water out of the tanks, and leaking deck-plates are a primary source followed closely by taking on contaminated fuel. In the boats you're looking at, you'll be burning around 75-90 gallons a day, so you'll turnover fuel pretty quickly.

On the Pacific side, I used to time my departures to avoid the teeth of the afternoon winds. For example, it's about a 20-22 hour run from Dana Point to Pt Conception/Pt Arguello, a 25-mile stretch well-known for localized high winds near Santa Barbara - 35-50 kts is pretty normal for a couple hours. It really tests the water-tightness of a windows. So I'd leave Dana Point around 10PM to round at well after sunset, but before midnight. Of course, once in a while the winds don't die down and it gets extra-boisterous with steep water in wee-hours, but that was my thinking to reduce risk. Anyone who doesn't time the diurnal winds is nuts.

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Old 07-29-2020, 07:41 PM   #34
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Pituitary adenoma would be my first thought. Get an image and prolactin level.
Not sure to what, or to whom this rather strange comment refers, please explain...

Also, as an aside, could I remind folk that it is really good practice when quoting someone else, especially if it was a long post, to once quoted, go in and highlight and delete the more irrelevant bits, and thus cut it down to the key statements to which one is really responding, to shorten it a bit and make it more easily digestible to all. Addressed to no-one in particular, but everyone in general. Just sayin'...

P.S. Also, as this discussion has progressed quite a bit beyond the usual Welcome Mat missive, I've taken the liberty of moving it to General Discussion, where it will gain a wider audience and contributions.
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Old 07-30-2020, 07:23 AM   #35
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Not sure to what, or to whom this rather strange comment refers, please explain...

Also, as an aside, could I remind folk that it is really good practice when quoting someone else, especially if it was a long post, to once quoted, go in and highlight and delete the more irrelevant bits, and thus cut it down to the key statements to which one is really responding, to shorten it a bit and make it more easily digestible to all. Addressed to no-one in particular, but everyone in general. Just sayin'...

P.S. Also, as this discussion has progressed quite a bit beyond the usual Welcome Mat missive, I've taken the liberty of moving it to General Discussion, where it will gain a wider audience and contributions.


He was responding to post #20 from dhays.
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Old 07-30-2020, 02:28 PM   #36
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Not sure to what, or to whom this rather strange comment refers, please explain...
Yeah, he was replying to my post. While I knew what he was replying to me post, likely most others would have missed it. No problem.
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Old 07-30-2020, 03:02 PM   #37
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Hi all
I’m a retired MD. 7 years I had my first new boat built-an Outbound 46. They’re semi custom boats built for blue water. Prior I owned a one off built for the OSTAR, a Tayana, several Cape Dories, a Pacific Seacraft, a Monitor and a multiple small craft both power and sail. I’ve done multiple Bermuda races, transports from New England to the leewards but the most enthralling has been being captain on the boat of my conception sailing back and forth from New England to the islands and living on her in the windwards and leewards.
With the Outbound we snowbirded mostly with the Salty Dawg Rally sailing from Rhode Island to the Leewards in the fall and back in the spring. So overall have tens of thousands of blue water miles and about the same coastal.
Now wife says it’s time to move on so doing the classic transition from sail to trawler. As always it’s more important to know what you don’t know than what you do know. That’s why I’m here. Figure you guys know more than I and I’m ready to learn.
Once the outbound sells I’ll be looking for something for two to cruise. Want a solid vessel, 1500nm range with 10% reserve, prefer fins, prefer grp but aluminum is fine. A good Fe boat is okay depending on coatings. Have been on Puffins (a Dutch sailboat) where there wasn’t a speck of rust a decade out so know it can be done. As will not be full time liveaboards but rather just for months at time don’t want to break the bank this time around. Been sailing and a boat owner for ~35 years so have basic knowledge and skill set of the typical liveaboard. Know naturally aspirated and turbo but clueless on common rail.
So far like Norhavn, KK, Cherubini (range problematic), Seahorse, and some converted commercial craft. If I hit the lottery I’d be on a Artnautica or Arksen but not this time around. Wife wants something in the 40-50’ range. Not too big that docking is a tight sphincter event but adequate LWL for a decent days work. We much prefer living on the hook and don’t like marinas nor living in a slip.
Look forward to your throwing pearls at me. Thanks all.
If that is what you want, may I suggest you go with a long sailing hull, get rid of the rig and ballast keel replacing it with a gyro stabilizer between the mast step and mid ships. Then up the power and add a pilot house if it doesn’t have one.

Then add an extended bulbous bow that allows a reverse bow to the deck.

This gives you a high speed low drag wave piercing hull with as comfortable of a ride into rough seas as is available. It will also get you the most MPG.
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Old 07-30-2020, 04:22 PM   #38
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If that is what you want, may I suggest you go with a long sailing hull, get rid of the rig and ballast keel replacing it with a gyro stabilizer between the mast step and mid ships. Then up the power and add a pilot house if it doesn’t have one.

Then add an extended bulbous bow that allows a reverse bow to the deck.

This gives you a high speed low drag wave piercing hull with as comfortable of a ride into rough seas as is available. It will also get you the most MPG.
Dashew and now artnautica/Arhsen totally agree with you but you’re looking at58-64 ft. Want smaller. I fart dust. I’ve no interest in a project boat. Been there done that. Know any new to you is enough work So it’s a great idea but will pass. So far a suitable one off, converted commercial craft, N or KK are still the short list. Would do a Fisher 46 or even a 37. Had SHE (south Hants England) and have experience with Rustlers so no reluctance buying British.
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Old 07-30-2020, 10:44 PM   #39
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No power boat has an adequate rudder compared to a sailboat.

I respectfully disagree

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Old 07-31-2020, 12:53 AM   #40
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Vessel Name: Concerto
Vessel Model: 1980 Cheoy Lee
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
Hi all
I’m a retired MD. 7 years I had my first new boat built-an Outbound 46. They’re semi custom boats built for blue water. Prior I owned a one off built for the OSTAR, a Tayana, several Cape Dories, a Pacific Seacraft, a Monitor and a multiple small craft both power and sail. I’ve done multiple Bermuda races, transports from New England to the leewards but the most enthralling has been being captain on the boat of my conception sailing back and forth from New England to the islands and living on her in the windwards and leewards.
With the Outbound we snowbirded mostly with the Salty Dawg Rally sailing from Rhode Island to the Leewards in the fall and back in the spring. So overall have tens of thousands of blue water miles and about the same coastal.
Now wife says it’s time to move on so doing the classic transition from sail to trawler. As always it’s more important to know what you don’t know than what you do know. That’s why I’m here. Figure you guys know more than I and I’m ready to learn.
Once the outbound sells I’ll be looking for something for two to cruise. Want a solid vessel, 1500nm range with 10% reserve, prefer fins, prefer grp but aluminum is fine. A good Fe boat is okay depending on coatings. Have been on Puffins (a Dutch sailboat) where there wasn’t a speck of rust a decade out so know it can be done. As will not be full time liveaboards but rather just for months at time don’t want to break the bank this time around. Been sailing and a boat owner for ~35 years so have basic knowledge and skill set of the typical liveaboard. Know naturally aspirated and turbo but clueless on common rail.
So far like Norhavn, KK, Cherubini (range problematic), Seahorse, and some converted commercial craft. If I hit the lottery I’d be on a Artnautica or Arksen but not this time around. Wife wants something in the 40-50’ range. Not too big that docking is a tight sphincter event but adequate LWL for a decent days work. We much prefer living on the hook and don’t like marinas nor living in a slip.
Look forward to your throwing pearls at me. Thanks all.
Hi. Welcome. I am curious why you want a 1500 mile range? It seems to me that if you are planning passages that long (or 25% that long) a sailboat with power winches and more automated furling systems would be a better fit for you. I have yet to know of a 40 to 50 ft powerboat that is anywhere near as comfortable in a seaway as a sailboat (or sailing cat)even if it is stabilized.
There is a blog here of a fellow who crossed the Atlantic on his kk42. It was anything but comfortable. He had to change his course all the time and slow the boat down just to withstand the motion of his boat. The boat was not fast at all. Any half decent catamaran would have completed the passage in a third less time.
If you are planning shorter hops with weather windows you could get a faster powerboat with less fuel range and still have a comfortable ride. Your original post along with the plethora of experience you have leaves me wondering why you would want to torture yourself with long extremely uncomfortable boat rides that will take more out of you physically than the boat you are selling.
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