Radar "Required" or "Optional" for Great Loop?

[FlyWright]

As others have alluded to, it's the operator who makes a radar worthwhile having. If you don't know how to operate it and interpret its display, it won't help much.

All radar experts I know operate with the radar on at all times while underway...regardless of the weather. This goes for aviation as well as marine radar.

Radar has many limitations but when it's understood, it's a much more reliable locator in the fog than a chartplotter that can be off by as much as 100 ft when you really need it. I see it often when passing navigation markers depicted on the map. They're not always where they say they are!

IMO, too many folks put too much blind faith in their chartplotters, seeing them as some magic orb of knowledge that must be followed at all times and 99% of the time, they're right. The other 1% is when radar disagrees with the chartplotter...that's when you need to know how to follow the radar.

I've had a few close calls on the water in bad fog caused by misinterpretation or disbelief of the display. I hope to never make those mistakes again!

 

[Boilermaker75]

Boat, thanks for your reply and comments. Others who have also responded put radar above GPS and/or AIS, although nobody was quite so eloquent as you. Out of curiosity, do you ever use Google Maps, or MapQuest, or Waze on your smart phone in your car when driving somewhere unfamiliar for the first time?
Peace and blessings,
Larry

 

[Boilermaker75]

FlyWright, I appreciate and agree with your comments about the importance of a properly educated/trained and experieced/skilled operator for any/every sophisticated or complex tool. Thanks.
Peace and blessings,
Larry

 

[BandB]

I'm reading all these persons talking about not understanding how to use their radar and throwing it out or it's dangerous because they haven't learned it. The answer isn't to get rid of it, the answer is to learn how to use it properly. Practice. Read. Find someone to teach you. But you don't ditch safety equipment because it's easier than learning how to use it. I didn't find radar as easy to learn as my wife did. However, I worked and worked at it. I sat where others could see out but I couldn't and navigated by radar plus said what I saw and if I wasn't seeing something they'd call me out on it or if I thought a buoy was a boat they'd wait to see when I figured it out if safe or they'd call it to my attention. I still try to avoid having to navigate on radar only, but I sure do use it as a tool.

 

[twistedtree]

I'm reading all these persons talking about not understanding how to use their radar and throwing it out or it's dangerous because they haven't learned it. The answer isn't to get rid of it, the answer is to learn how to use it properly. Practice. Read. Find someone to teach you. But you don't ditch safety equipment because it's easier than learning how to use it. I didn't find radar as easy to learn as my wife did. However, I worked and worked at it. I sat where others could see out but I couldn't and navigated by radar plus said what I saw and if I wasn't seeing something they'd call me out on it or if I thought a buoy was a boat they'd wait to see when I figured it out if safe or they'd call it to my attention. I still try to avoid having to navigate on radar only, but I sure do use it as a tool.

 

[psneeld]

While I know chartplotters will sometimes lie to you because the cartography shows you driving over land....but that is very rare in main boating areas that have been checked and rechecked and cartography updated.

In thiose rare instances of limited vis AND bad cartography, RADAR earns its keep even beyond the normal collision avoidance.

But I seriously doubt most even exoerienced mariners here could run parts of the ICW comfortably in thick fog on RADAR only and not go aground.....especially where there are missing or out of place ATON.

I have done snowbirding without RADAR...and hated it, but I doubt I would have done it without a chartplotter.....and certainly not without a plain gps.

I am not suggesting not go with RADAR or toss it out, but it can also be a negative tool for a long time till the operator IS good with it.

A new to big boat operator that sails shorthanded ( meaning only 1 primary operator) ....getting ready for the loop isnt going to get good with RADAR in less than a couple years unless they are out there every week practicing with it. Especially if it is a stand alone and not capable of chart overlay. Sure some will, but the vast majority of my students....you know, those who have boated their whole life.... .....were not really RADAR ready for serious cruisin and depending on it for more than the basics in low intensity situations.

Reality has taught me though, fog while not exactly predictable, is easier to deal with if avoided both seasonally and geographically. So one can avoid limited vis to a point if they are mindful of this and days with forecast precipitation. But then the reality argument for having it because it is such a spit in the wind expense compared to a total loop cost..... that is if you want lower stress, pleasure boating.

 

[FF]

Most loopers do the run for personal pleasure.

In fog rain or storms most stay where they are , and do not play the "Victory at Sea" " Dance of the North Atlantic" music and press on regardless.

For folks doing the run for FUN real paper charts and a hand held marine GPS will do just fine.

Perhaps folks running the loop this summer will post back the number of days that without radar they could not have moved an inch?

 

[Mako]

I can't imagine having to hand steer our DeFever 44 for 24 straight hours making the Gulf crossing especially in the very difficult sea conditions we unexpectedly encountered.

The longest I hand steered was one week with three aboard in very rough conditions. Two hour shifts and I did suffer from fatigue. But that was from lack of sleep, not the steering.

But in “normal” conditions it wasn’t so bad and autopilot felt more like a luxury than a necessity.

However for a cruising couple, especially on long ocean passages, I can see how it would be very helpful or perhaps necessary.

 

[ranger58sb]

Thanks for the great AIS transceiver suggestion, RCook; I didn't realize VHF radios w/ AIR were receive-only. I have a spare laptop PC I could dedicate to navigation w/ the AIS transceiver. What Windows 10 OS apps do you suggest for navigation purposes on the laptop PC? Does the laptop PC need to be connected to the Internet for those apps to work?

TimeZero is one. Not inexpensive, but it happens to be the same engine/chart options some fixed chartplotters use... so the match can be useful, especially to reduce the learning curve. There are a few others.

Most of the decent PC and tablet/phone nav apps do NOT need internet connection once all your charts and updates are downloaded, so you can use them while underway even when out of range.

You usually do need external sensors (GPS, etc.) on laptops, since most don't come with those. GPS for tablets/phones depends more on which church you like (Android or Apple, or Windows or etc.) and which of those devices incorporate internal GPS (or not).

There are several threads here on tablet/phone apps, and some on PC apps. Use the "Advanced Search" (the normal search tool isn't great).

-Chris

 

[Bay Pelican]

I have been in heavy fog in the Gulf, Mobile Bay, the Atlantic ICW, Long Island Sound and each of the Great Lakes. I was in fog for days off New England.

On Mobile Bay I have used unpolite language to refer to the small fishing boats out in the fog without radar who almost hit me. I was able to warn several who had radios but one bass boat went on its side trying to avoid Bay Pelican when he came out of the fog.

An inexpensive radar unit will do the job and I would strongly suggest being so equipped.

 

[Boilermaker75]

Your reply reflects the wisdom that comes from experience, BandB; thank you for reminding that we have a responsibility to educate ourselves, through training, mentoring/coaching, and practice, to develop and maintain our navigation and seamanship skills using whatever tools we have available to us.

As a sailing instructor, I've never had someone fall off the boat -- but I had my crew/students run through a MOB drill every time we went out.

Peace and blessings,
Larry

 

[Boilermaker75]

Bay Pelican, I'm glad to hear you were able to see and warn the approaching boaters of your presence and the potential collision threat, to avoid being hit yourself; thanks for your reply.
Peace and blessings,
Larry

 

[drb1025]

Bay Pelican, I'm glad to hear you were able to see and warn the approaching boaters of your presence and the potential collision threat, to avoid being hit yourself; thanks for your reply.
Peace and blessings,
Larry

Bay Pelican’s experience is more common than you might think. Even a rudimentary understanding of your radar will help you manage the risks that other boaters without radar and good judgement expose you to. I have heard several boaters, when encountering a thick fog bank, broadcast on their vhf radio “watch out for me, I don’t have radar”. They just put the risk on you and if you don’t have radar either, then what? Something to consider because these things really happen.

 

[Mrwesson]

...wow, I mean just... wow.

They boat among us!

There's the internet and what happens on the water regularly.

At least i'm honest in that my radar is a tool that I don't fully understand but was working on it(before I removed it). I've been in the fog a few times locally and it's been very much a non issue using every other tool available to me.

Relying on radar that you don't fully understand to map your surroundings would be not only stupid but i'd go as far as to say it's better if you'd thrown it over.

But judge away.

 

[psneeld]

Don't feel bad, in other threads that talk about over saturation of operators by electronics....you have more support than you think.
On the other hand, quite a few may think it is your responsibility to buy and familiarize yoursef with RADAR prior to any serious cruising for the safety of others.

 

[Moby Nick]

Interesting question:

We've neither radar nor chart plotter in our Albin. However, having just completed the US Power Squadron's Advanced Piloting Course which included study of both Chart Plotters and Radar, I was impressed by the CP's abilities in regard to tide and current. I'm not sure Radar's ability in fog outweighs CP's ability for tide and current data.

 

[RCook]

Thanks for the great AIS transceiver suggestion, RCook; I didn't realize VHF radios w/ AIR were receive-only. I have a spare laptop PC I could dedicate to navigation w/ the AIS transceiver. What Windows 10 OS apps do you suggest for navigation purposes on the laptop PC? Does the laptop PC need to be connected to the Internet for those apps to work?
Peace and blessings,
Larry

Hi Larry,

I use and very much like Coastal Explorer from Rose Point. No need to connect to the internet while you're traveling, other than occasionally to download software and S/W updates, charts, and chart updates. Probably Active Captain data and updates as well.

I'm on the Inside Passage, not doing the Loop - not sure how CE stacks up for that area.

 

[markpierce]

Found radar very useful in daylight while navigating the narrow Petaluma channel in the broad and shallow San Pablo Bay by sighting the channel markers.

 

[psneeld]

Bay Pelican’s experience is more common than you might think. Even a rudimentary understanding of your radar will help you manage the risks that other boaters without radar and good judgement expose you to. I have heard several boaters, when encountering a thick fog bank, broadcast on their vhf radio “watch out for me, I don’t have radar”. They just put the risk on you and if you don’t have radar either, then what? Something to consider because these things really happen.

Quote....."....then what?"

Sound signals maybe?

But a novice playing with the RADAR and not looking ahead may be more of a menace. Even chartlotters can be distracting to the untrained.

 

[Fish53]

I used to run supply boats out of Louisiana and trawlers in AK and New England where you can't often chose running in the dark or bad weather and radar is invaluable under those circumstances. These days radar is inexpensive enough that I wouldn't have a boat without it.

 

[jleonard]

I have radar and use it pretty much only when it's foggy. Actually my wife/first mate is the radar watch person. I concentrate on the rest.
As far as whether it's necessary for the loop, I'm on the fence.
We didn't do the entire loop, we cruised the Canadian portion for 2 summers and used the radar only one time, in the Hudson river. We could have waited an hour for the fog to disperse, but we fired up the radar.
I can see it's value in the Gulf crossing. Whether my 12 year old radar will see around a river bend is questionable depending upon the terrain height vs mast height.
And to address another issue, I would never vote for a radar over a decent chart plotter. with the plotter and depth finder, I have confidence in knowing where I am (even though is always shows me in the woods when I am in the Erie canal "cut").

 

[FlyWright]

Four items must operate properly for me to operate safely in the fog:

1. Autopilot
2. Chartplotters (redundancy)
3. Radar
4. Fogmate foghorn

 

[Fish53]

I've used chart plotters since they used loran C and colored pens for tracking and I'd never trust a chart plotter over a radar. Radar shows exactly the range and bearing where any GPS device can be dangerously off, especially in a narrow channel. I've had plotters with overlay of AIS and radar on the chart and the radar is always right. I'd take an updated paper chart, my navigation skills and radar before GPS. Not that a chart plotter isn't convenient but they can be off and you may not know when. A radar isn't just a collision avoidance tool it's a navigational tool, radar indexing is a very nice technique when running rivers or narrow channels, radar also works well as a stand in pelorus for multiple bearings. I'd like to add that when underway it's a good idea to always have your radar on, first it's good to have it on when you suddenly want to calculate a CPA with another vessel even in good visibility, second it's good practice. It's worth noting that the USCG considers not having radar on as not maintaining a proper lookout in the event of an incident.

 

[BandB]

I'd like to add that when underway it's a good idea to always have your radar on, first it's good to have it on when you suddenly want to calculate a CPA with another vessel even in good visibility, second it's good practice. It's worth noting that the USCG considers not having radar on as not maintaining a proper lookout in the event of an incident.

While I agree with always having the radar on, the comment about the USCG is a bit of a false tale. They would only consider failing to have it on an issue in conditions where it was needed and failing to use it contributed to the accident.

 

[BandB]

This discussion has some of the elements of all the discussions on electronics and equipment. Some approach it as if someone is telling you to rely totally on one of your tools and not use the others including your vision. No one is saying you should attempt to navigate solely by radar or solely by plotter or you should set your autopilot and then take a nap. These are all useful tools. A Captain must still decide the most appropriate way to use them and that takes into considerations conditions as well as experience.

 

[Fish53]

In the commercial world, where I'm from it's not a "false tale". Radar is an integral part of maintaining a proper lookout regardless of conditions and obviously if you run into something you needed it. If you've ever been on the bridge of a large commercial vessel the radars are always on and someone is always plotting other vessels, buoys or other objects of navigational significance regardless of conditions.

 

[Boilermaker75]

drb1025, psneeld, Fish53, and other responders, you've all given me valuable food for thought; thank you all for sharing your experience, knowledge, opinions, and suggestions with me.

I'll try to get as much navigation/safety equimentment as the budget will allow, depending on what the boat already has (or doesn't have), even if it means getting a smaller boat to put more money toward the nav/safety equipment retrofit -- and yes, related education, training, and practice ;-)
Peace and blessings,
Larry

 

[Fish53]

The education, training and practice are really key, you are the most important navigational device on the boat.

 

[psneeld]

A very common mistake comparing recreational versus commercial on many levels.

The USCG often states the higher level of standards for commercial oerators and requires training such as Radar.

 

[Boilermaker75]

AMEN, BandB; thanks for that!
Peace and blessings,
Larry