Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-30-2018, 06:01 PM   #21
Guru
 
Brooksie's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA
Vessel Name: Island Seeker
Vessel Model: Willard 36 Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,162
A little check or relief valve, set to open at 10-20 psi, in the drain line would do the job automatically. Not a check valve from HD plumbing but a proper small valve from Grainger or McMaster Carr.
__________________
Advertisement

Brooksie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2018, 06:04 PM   #22
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by garycasey View Post
There might be a lot of overthinking going on. I'm certainly not an expert on much of anything, but here are my opinions: First, don't check the oil with the engine running. The fill level was set by the manufacturer assuming the engine is shut off, not running. Also, I wouldn't worry about the filter draining in any reasonable time. To drain, there has to be a way for air to get into the filter housing, and there isn't an easy way for this to happen. Where would it come from? Sure, after a long time sitting (months), the filter might drain down. I would fill to the mark after an oil change, start the engine and then measure again after shutting it off. Fill it back up to the mark and forget about it. Whether the oil level is somewhat higher or lower than the mark there will be no effect on oil pressure. When too full the oil might be aerated if it gets up to the crankshaft, but that won't have much effect. And it has to get really low before the pump will start picking up air.
Well....the CAT has a two sided dip stick - one marked for engine not running and one marked for when it is, at idle. They do this because this 3306 engine was designed for the North Slope and they never turned them off. It is also handy for a trans oceanic crossing of weeks since being able to check the oil when underway at idle but in gear is a blessing rather than waiting for it to drain into the sump while bobbing around like a demented cork. Oil drains within 10 minutes or so from the filter and cannister if it is hot oil, and the air you mentioned is coming from the supply line from the motor, which when the engine is off is just an empty channel.

As mentioned above, I put a valve on to prevent the oil that saturates the Puradyn filter - which is about the size of a gallon and a half - from draining back into the sump when the engine is off. Peace of mind since in addition to the marking for "Oil Level Engine Stopped" is the message, in CAPS, "DO NOT OVERFILL".
__________________

__________________
Delfin
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2018, 06:10 PM   #23
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooksie View Post
A little check or relief valve, set to open at 10-20 psi, in the drain line would do the job automatically. Not a check valve from HD plumbing but a proper small valve from Grainger or McMaster Carr.
You're right, Brooksie, that would have worked. I just looked at one at it opens at 3.5# psi, which would be strong enough, I presume, to block the flow when the system is depressurized after shutting down the engine. One advantage of the ball valve I did install is that when I change the oil, I can open it to drain the oil out of the cannister into the sump for removal. A bit cleaner, methinks.
__________________
Delfin
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 04:29 PM   #24
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
I have old Detroits that have bypass filters, not full flow filters. They hold about 3 quarts. As C lectric says, when changing oil, either start with extra oil or run the engine and add oil after shutdown. Depends on the engine make if you can have extra oil in the pan. I could probably put two extra gallons in the Detroits.

I don't change my filters very often because now I centrifuge the oil below what the filters can catch. I only change the oil if it fails a test. So far that's never. Makeup oil seems to keep enough additives.
Finally, someone who understands that, with good filtration, oil almost never needs to be changed. I assume you test your oil to ensure that the TBN is suffiently high enough for continued use and soot levels are okay as well. Even without by-pass filtration oil lasts a very long time. IMHO, most boaters throw away good oil every season. Cheap insurance, I guess. I do not have by-pass filtration. I change my oil when testing says it is time just as the military and large fleet (truck) owners do. Remember when the oil industry had us all convinced that auto oil just MUST be changed every 3,000 miles lest our engines would fail prematurely?
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 07:04 PM   #25
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,990
Delphin- just read that you have the two sided stick, one side for running, one side for shut down. Nice feature, lots of Cats have that. Just use the stick with engine idling warmed up and use the "running" side. Don't worry if it is high on the shutdown side of the stick when filter drains. What matters is oil level with engine running and you can tell that with your stick.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 08:38 PM   #26
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Delphin- just read that you have the two sided stick, one side for running, one side for shut down. Nice feature, lots of Cats have that. Just use the stick with engine idling warmed up and use the "running" side. Don't worry if it is high on the shutdown side of the stick when filter drains. What matters is oil level with engine running and you can tell that with your stick.
Thanks Ski, I'll take that advice. As I mentioned, I installed a valve on the return line from the bypass filter, so I'll top it up after running for a bit, to be full at idle. Turn off the engine, close the valve. Start the engine, open the valve. There's stuff I have to do in the ER before starting and after stopping, so the valve presents no burden.
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 11:08 PM   #27
Guru
 
City: Melbourne, FL
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
I change my oil when testing says it is time just as the military and large fleet (truck) owners do. Remember when the oil industry had us all convinced that auto oil just MUST be changed every 3,000 miles lest our engines would fail prematurely?
Many new cars have an oil change schedule from 8,000-16,000 miles between oil changes. Part of the reason for an oil change is to remove the moisture and acids that build up in the oil over time.

There are oil recyclers that can filter the oil and replace the detergents in the oil to be re-used again, underscoring the oil not wearing out, but becoming contaminated.
stubones99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 05:02 AM   #28
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by stubones99 View Post
Many new cars have an oil change schedule from 8,000-16,000 miles between oil changes. Part of the reason for an oil change is to remove the moisture and acids that build up in the oil over time.

There are oil recyclers that can filter the oil and replace the detergents in the oil to be re-used again, underscoring the oil not wearing out, but becoming contaminated.
Remove acids? Again, another misunderstanding of oil attributes. With much respect, do some self-education around TBN (Total Base Number). The TBN is an indicator of the oil's ability to NEUTRALIZE residual acids. As long as the TBN is sufficiently high, the oil is NOT acidic. Oil anysis will show the TBN and the analyzing house will tell you if you need to change the oil. As I opined earlier, many, if not most, boaters throw away good oil. The idea that oil must be changed before winter layup to avoid internals from sitting in acidic oil is preposterous regardless of what any "experienced" mechanics postulates.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 05:42 AM   #29
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,042
Jack
An oil change on engines like ours (I do every 300 to 400 hours or at least annually totaling 9 gallons for 3 engines) is hardly expensive nor inconvenient. Since this is the wrong forum for 24/7 engines, easy to argue any combination of regular changes, additive packages etc will work. Once into old Detroits or bigger engines the costs go up as pan capacity increases.

As you suggest, routine oil analysis programs are how the tugs, mine equipment, truckers, gensets etc operate. That is not us, but of course analyzing your oil does no harm.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 07:49 AM   #30
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Jack
An oil change on engines like ours (I do every 300 to 400 hours or at least annually totaling 9 gallons for 3 engines) is hardly expensive nor inconvenient. Since this is the wrong forum for 24/7 engines, easy to argue any combination of regular changes, additive packages etc will work. Once into old Detroits or bigger engines the costs go up as pan capacity increases.

As you suggest, routine oil analysis programs are how the tugs, mine equipment, truckers, gensets etc operate. That is not us, but of course analyzing your oil does no harm.
Four hundred hours is not bad but some guys change oil in the fall without even 100 hours - the acid fear. Yes, an oil change after 400 hours is not terribly expensive but for some boaters, unlike you, an oil change is not so easy or convenient. I do not agree that oil analysis is not "us". It is not "us" only because boaters somehow think their diesel engines are different than those in fishing boats, over-the-road trucks, etc.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 08:45 AM   #31
Senior Member
 
Jetstream's Avatar
 
City: Tasmania
Vessel Model: Old Town Loon
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coalman View Post
Anyone have a good fuel burn rate at cruise speed (say 8-9 knots) Cummins 6bta 5.9L M3 335 hp. Iím looking at economy. Not sure if this is the engine. Any help is appreciated

Our two 6BTA 5.9 M3 370's burn 12 liters per hour combined at 1200 RPM. That gives us 7 knots on a 48 foot boat.
Jetstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 08:46 AM   #32
Member
 
City: Leland, NC
Vessel Model: Still looking
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 20
Are you sure about the flow of oil through the filter? The usual flow is from the outside of the element (most surface area) to the inside and then return to the sump.
Tom A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 09:22 AM   #33
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
. I do not agree that oil analysis is not "us". It is not "us" only because boaters somehow think their diesel engines are different than those in fishing boats, over-the-road trucks, etc.
I tried to say 24/7 heavy duty commercial use is not us. Certainly, analyze your oil whenever desired.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 09:55 AM   #34
Guru
 
FoxtrotCharlie's Avatar
 
City: Mississippi
Vessel Name: ADAGIO
Vessel Model: CHB Present 42 Sundeck
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 846
Yep it's a good idea to get oil analysis with each oil change - not very expensive. And if/when you sell your boat that long record of (hopefully) clean 'no action required' reports will pay you far more in higher sales price than the reports cost you. Not to mention it will also give you peace of mind, or an early heads up with any engine problems.
FoxtrotCharlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 10:12 AM   #35
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom A View Post
Are you sure about the flow of oil through the filter? The usual flow is from the outside of the element (most surface area) to the inside and then return to the sump.
On the OEM filters yes. On the Puradyn, no. It only passes around 6 gallons of oil per hour, entering the filter through a fairly small orifice at the center of the canister where a rubber seal is engaged when you screw the lid of the canister down on the filter.

The drawing in the link is for a different canister design than mine, which drains from the bottom, but the oil flow is the same.

https://www.puradyn.com/bypass-filter-system-overview/
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 10:16 AM   #36
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 9,042
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxtrotCharlie View Post
Yep it's a good idea to get oil analysis with each oil change - not very expensive. And if/when you sell your boat that long record of (hopefully) clean 'no action required' reports will pay you far more in higher sales price than the reports cost you. Not to mention it will also give you peace of mind, or an early heads up with any engine problems.
FXTC

IMHO, oil analysis on our recreational marine engines is primarily to pick up the traces of coolant or salt water that indicate a non internal issue. These could be exhaust problems with water ingestion or an overheat warping or cracking an engine part.

On any vessel for sale, a prudent buyer should have a set of oil analysis done. If all OK with those reports, good sea trial results and maintenance records check out then some other things come into play. Such as visuals.

A crappy looking ER with rusty engines, shoddy upkeep, lots of water or residue in the bilge is run don't hide for me. Just did this a few months ago - ran. I didn't care that the oil analysis was OK.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 10:23 AM   #37
Guru
 
FoxtrotCharlie's Avatar
 
City: Mississippi
Vessel Name: ADAGIO
Vessel Model: CHB Present 42 Sundeck
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
FXTC

IMHO, oil analysis on our recreational marine engines is primarily to pick up the traces of coolant or salt water that indicate a non internal issue. These could be exhaust problems with water ingestion or an overheat warping or cracking an engine part.

On any vessel for sale, a prudent buyer should have a set of oil analysis done. If all OK with those reports, good sea trial results and maintenance records check out then some other things come into play. Such as visuals.

A crappy looking ER with rusty engines, shoddy upkeep, lots of water or residue in the bilge is run don't hide for me. Just did this a few months ago - ran. I didn't care that the oil analysis was OK.

I don't disagree at all - just did that with our purchase. And I assume that an owner with "A crappy looking ER with rusty engines, shoddy upkeep, lots of water or residue" would not be getting regular oil analysis reports
FoxtrotCharlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 10:27 AM   #38
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
Remove acids? Again, another misunderstanding of oil attributes. With much respect, do some self-education around TBN (Total Base Number). The TBN is an indicator of the oil's ability to NEUTRALIZE residual acids. As long as the TBN is sufficiently high, the oil is NOT acidic. Oil anysis will show the TBN and the analyzing house will tell you if you need to change the oil. As I opined earlier, many, if not most, boaters throw away good oil. The idea that oil must be changed before winter layup to avoid internals from sitting in acidic oil is preposterous regardless of what any "experienced" mechanics postulates.
I think most of us understood what Mr. S. was referring to when he mentioned removing acids. Better phrasing would be correcting the pH of the oil, which can drop over time, and is corrected by the additive package.

Personally, I don't find it either too expensive or too much trouble to follow the engine manufacturer's recommendations regarding oil change intervals.
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 10:35 AM   #39
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,990
The acid in the oil concern was a big deal when fuel had a lot of sulfur. Much less of a concern now with ULSD. Also, for acid to attack bearings, there needs to be moisture in the oil, which can be a problem with engines with sea water cooled oil. If your oil is coolant cooled and you run at a reasonable power setting, the oil in regions gets hot enough to drive out any combustion derived moisture.

Another reason to power up for a half hour if you mostly run your engine at put-put speed. Especially last run before a period of non-use.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2018, 03:49 PM   #40
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
The acid in the oil concern was a big deal when fuel had a lot of sulfur. Much less of a concern now with ULSD. Also, for acid to attack bearings, there needs to be moisture in the oil, which can be a problem with engines with sea water cooled oil. If your oil is coolant cooled and you run at a reasonable power setting, the oil in regions gets hot enough to drive out any combustion derived moisture.

Another reason to power up for a half hour if you mostly run your engine at put-put speed. Especially last run before a period of non-use.
I think this is where an EGT gauge is helpful. I usually run our engine up to around 775 degrees towards the end of a day's running at "put-put" speeds. That may also be why I rarely see any soot from the dry stack.
__________________

Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×