Question about Brokers

[BruceK]

The above discussion of the Sellers Broker paying half of 10% to the Buyers Broker highlights the silliness of the system. Astoundingly, the Seller is paying the Buyers Broker, and few seem to see that as odd. The Buyers Broker only makes a $ if the sale proceeds. The Buyers Broker is hopelessly conflicted. In practice some will, to their own detriment,do the right thing by their client,who owe a fiduciary duty, but some will surely yield to the temptation to do otherwise in the hunt for a $.
Far better if the Seller pays his/her Broker 5%,and the Buyer makes own arrangements to employ and pay a Broker if thought appropriate to do so.

 

[ManoBoat]

I always wince when a boat buyer or seller compares yacht sales to real estate. Keep in mind that houses don't move. Selling a boat doesn't just mean trips to the boat, but the sea trial and survey. How many plane tickets does a real estate agent buy each year on behalf of clients? How much time does the agent spend on inspection? A boat usually takes 2 days for a survey, even some 40 footers. That frequently means hotel room in additional to plane tickets and rental cars. More importantly is the knowledge a broker brings to the survey. I've yet to hear a real estate agent insist on an audiogauge or discuss blisters or doublers or exhaust systems with an inspector.

Comparing real estate agents and yacht brokers isn't even apples and oranges.

I appreciate that you are willing to help us understand from your side but you miss my point. The point being that even for <$100K home investment that are several layers of regulated bodies that create some degree of confidence and actual legal and financial nets if the buyer, seller or the brokers misrepresent the product or don't execute with both parties interest in mind. Includes titles, appraisals, disclosure of know issues, inspectors, finance and the brokers. Not saying that things can't and don't go wrong but I believe there is a basis to support the process that spans the entire country. Whether it can move or not has no bearing and a painted over blister on a boat is no different that a patched termite intrusion.

 

[ksanders]

Also, keep in mind the expenses involved for any broker you wish to use who has to fly to see the boat, fly to the survey and fly to the delivery. All for the minimal amount of money involved in a 100K sale. Those expenses and Covid? Not me, baby. I’d never make any money.
You need to start looking at boats yourself. Ask a zillion questions and find a couple types and manufacturers you’d be happy with. Learn the process.
Go to shows, trawler fest and others.
You’ll learn enough to buy it on your own, and save some money also.

Thanks for posting what I was thinking!

To the OP, you are not going to find a buyers broker who is going to put in any time helping you find a 50-100K 35-40' boat.

Why??? First off there is not enough money in the deal to make it interesting. Then you have the reality that boats in that price range arte old and often fail survey. That means that the broker has a high chance of never getting paid

My opinion is that in that price range you will be better served by the FSBO market. Yes boattrader works but craigslist is probably better. Another great place to look is on marina bulletin boards.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

In my work I deal with brokers on a weekly basis, both buyer's and seller's, as well as those who (claim they) represent both parties (nearly all will do this, and it is allowed by both state laws where applicable, and brokers' association rules, but I question how one can guard the interests of both parties in a negotiated financial transaction). As others have said, there are good and bad brokers, just as there are good and bad mechanics, electricians, yards etc. Do your homework, get references, thoroughly read everything you are given to sign before signing it.

These editorials, regarding FSBO, and representation, may be helpful. https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/the-importance-of-valve-adjustment/

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/...necessarily-early-death-from-this-phenomenon/

 

[Caballero II]

In Portland, I would call Jim Taylor at Irwin Yachts. I bought my boat from him and he was great.

Portland where? Jeez. Either one coast or the other. Makes a difference, dufus.

 

[ranger58sb]

Portland where? Jeez. Either one coast or the other. Makes a difference, dufus.

Geez.

OP is in Portland and his screen name is ORBoater. Flyguy is in PNW, and seems to have made a reasonable guess.

Chill.

-Chris

 

[TortugaSC]

I am certainly not going to take a shot at brokers. However, in my case I get relatively nothing from my broker. Like any profession, there are the good, the bad and the ugly. I did not have a good experience from a buyer broker standpoint. I am not sure I got much more than comps and someone to talk to during the survey. I knew more about the boat than he did. I found the surveyors for each boat survey. I also found the boat. So what did I get for the 5% paid by the seller? I will certainly look harder at FSBO on the next round. I really do not want or need the representation.

 

[kwalling]

Glad to see this thread

I am in exactly the same boat.... No pun intended. Even on the West Coast looking to buy a trawler back east. I have contacted multiple brokers via email with questions about specific boats I found advertised on Yacht world but I haven't gotten replies and when I do they are short with no answers. One broker I had to call three times, only to get a one sentence email back saying the boat was under contract and pending survey. Only one guy offered to look around for me if I sent him a list of what I am looking for. I sent him the information and never heard back from him again. I guess I will head up to the Seattle boat show in February and try to pick out a good broker I can trust in person. Next time I see a boat advertised I will call them directly. Anyone have any other suggestions?

 

[PNK]

Questions about brokers

When we were looking for a boat 4-5 years ago, we used a buyers broker, and found it really helpful. It is not always necessary, but we were looking in an area that wasn't so familiar to us, and this guy knew most of the boats for sale, so we avoided wasting a lot of time and driving since he was able to steer us towards boats that he knew fit our requirements.
As some others commented, there were a couple of cases where the selling broker didn't want to split his commission, but in most cases it wasn't an issue.
It turned out that we also avoided a big potential problem; the boat we initially intended to buy was on the hard at the time, and our broker negotiated an escrow amount, which he held, pending putting the boat in the water and doing a sea trial. Turned out the engine had a major issue, we backed out, and having control over the escrow was huge. That one experience was enough to sell us on using a buyers broker.
However, if we were looking again now, and staying within our local area, we would probably not feel it was needed, and at least start with owners directly.
Good luck, whichever route you choose.
Peter

 

[Seevee]

I could make a strong argument that regardless of having a broker or not, that one really get educated on boats, especially the boat they want.



Even with a broker, how do you keep them honest? The most you know, the better off you will be. Take some courses, go to shows and rendezvous, meet ups and talk to people. Participate in forums. Charter boats, buy a small starter boat if you've never boated.


It's really not any harder (or much different) than buying a home or airplane. However, home sales are MUCH more regulated. Only two states require a brokers license, so you could get a broker that was a janitor this morning and is a boat broker this afternoon, and yes, it happens. There is an argument to look for their YBAA or better yet CPYB certificates.


The paperwork is not hard, but there's a argument to get a list and be sure you have everything covered. The BIG thing is how to handle inspections and disputes and unknowns. Deposits (if you need one) are easy.. just hire someone, if you wish. Closing is fairly easy... get a check, sign a deed (title). Sure, there's a bit more to it, but not hard.



If one really knows the boat and model they want it's much easier.

 

[tiltrider1]

Did my buyer broker know as much about boats as I did? No! He was however a second set of eyes that spotted some things. Did my broker provide a contract that protected me? Yes! Did my broker keep the selling broker in line? Yes! Did my broker control the Escrow payment? Yes! Did my broker make sure all seller promises were fulfilled before releasing funds? Yes! Did my broker negotiate temporary moorage? Yes! Did my broker help arrange crew and commissioning services after the sale? Yes!

Did I pay my broker? Well yes and no. He certainly got paid but who really pays? The seller by taking less or the buyer by paying more?

 

[danderer]

Brokers would get many more listings if the fee were lower, say 6 or 7%.

https://knot10.com

Used them to sell my last boat. Sold in a couple of weeks. Very satisfied with their work. 6% IIRC.

 

[Hippocampus]

I had a bad experience with Anchor yachts and Merrill but that was an exception. But still believe brokers do serve several valuable functions at nearly all price points.
Will assure clean title and confirm no lien or other encumbrances on the vessel.
Will serve as a repository for a escrow account to address deficiencies found in survey.
Act as an interface to keep both buyer and seller realistic about value.
Good ones will facilitate you purchase a vessel congruent to expected use and available resources.
Good ones have a network of surveyors, vendors, service people so you can get good people to work for you at reasonable cost.
Good ones will help you transport the vessel to its new home port and in that process train you.
Good ones will negotiate price and details of the transaction to your benefit.
Yes many brokers are much like used car salesmen. Glib and apparently supportive but at end of day all about the money honey. But others view it as a profession and are a major resource before, during and after the transaction. In fact I remain friends with several although I haven’t done business with them in years and are quite friendly with Dave Balfour of Nordhavn NE although I didn’t buy a Nordhavn. Many are a class act and honestly work for your benefit.Dave steered me away from some boats instead of his making a quick buck for himself.
If you buy directly from an owner please protect yourself. You maybe wise to still contract outside help. Some owners may try to not disclose prior damage (sinking, down flooding, collision, fire etc.) or have undisclosed financial encumbrances(yard bills, loans, be in process of bankruptcy or divorce etc.) sure caveat emptor but you may need a hand to find out what you don’t know what you don’t know.
Have bought out partners who were halvies on boats with me. Even then with no brokers used a lawyer to oversee the deal.

 

[Surboum]

I worked with a buyer’s agent when looking for my first trawler purchase (I had previously owned sailboats and small power boats), and would probably use one again.

In my case the process took about 1.5 years, during which time we became personal friends as well as professional relationship. In the beginning I didn’t know what I was looking for - so we looked at a lot of different boats (brands, models, lengths, features). Once I was honed in on a particular manufacturer and model, COVID hit - which slowed the process - and the used boat market went crazy and many boats were sold before we could even contact the listing agents.

The good points were:
- I felt more comfortable and secure having an advocate for my interests who had more knowledge and experience than me.
- I learned a lot about what to look for and the purchase process from him.
- He was extremely honest and ethical.
- He did a lot of the initial legwork contacting listing agents and screening out boats that were not worth traveling to go see (my range was the east coast). That saved me a lot of time and frustration.
- He provided me histories of listing and actual sale prices for boats I was interested in.

What I was disappointed with:
- One of his responsibilities was to fill out the offer paperwork. After the first couple of offers I was able to do it faster and more accurately, and would complete the offers and just have him submit them.
- Once we had an accepted offer, I really wanted help with finding surveyors and scheduling surveys and sea trials - but had to do that all on my own.
- He was responsive to my requests, but not proactive. He never called me to say “I found a boat you might be interested in.” I always called him to say my YachtWorld auto search found these boats matching my criteria would you please contact the listing agent.
- He was not a good negotiator.

What I would do the next time:
- Seek out recommendations for a buyer broker a) knowledgeable in the kind of boat I was interested in (trawler, catamaran, cruising sailboat) who could cover my search area.
- Check out references of others who worked with him/her.
- Be up front about what I wanted the broker to do for me and what I could do for myself.
- Make sure our personalities fit - interested a relationship not just a transaction.
- Make sure they would be responsive to my needs ( i.e. not too busy for me) for the long term.
- Cut the cord if it wasn’t working for me.

P.S. In the end I found a FSBO boat on my own. By then I was familiar enough to go through the offer, inspection, survey, and sea trial process on my own (although I learned a lot from that - but that is a different story). Luckily, the financing company I used was able to help me (for a fee) with all the purchase, registration, and documentation paperwork. I felt guilty not including my buyer broker who had worked with me for so long, but did not know how to involve him in a FSBO purchase. I tried to make up for the commission he would have earned, but it wasn’t the same.

 

[janice142]

I have contacted multiple brokers via email with questions about specific boats I found advertised on Yacht world but I haven't gotten replies and when I do they are short with no answers. One broker I had to call three times, only to get a one sentence email back

I had this problem too kwalling. Single, solo, woman over fifty with experience (15k at the helm of our 40'er) yet that "Janice" didn't win me any responses. Finally I started sending emails signed "Janice (and Frank)" which got rapid replies.

Meet Frank:

My Dream Boat (which I bought) was for sale for $12k-plus. A broker was involved (in the loosest terms possible -- he listed it on Yacht World but was three states away)... I ended up dealing directly with the owner.

In any event I contacted Judy (yes, "our" Judy of JWY yacht sales) who offered advice. At that time I was coming out (barely) of a chemo fog so though I knew boats (born/raised aboard) I was a neophyte at purchase. She was enormously helpful. I am grateful.

Here's my girl, if you're curious:

Now 10% seems a lot when the vessel in question is a half a million dollars, however I hire vetted experts for things I need help with. With that much money on the table, I would want someone to make sure all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed. I want protection, and a great broker can provide that value.

For those with multiples of boat purchases and sales, perhaps that is not a necessity.... it's too much money for mistakes. I am willing to pay to have someone in my corner of the cockpit. Judy was helpful to me all those years ago. It did her zero financial good, and yet she helped. Now, in this thread she is sharing her decades of experience, and that is interesting and helpful too.

One of the best parts of TrawlerForum is the variety of opinions. Everyone's got one. I'm certainly grateful for the options provided by experts, and for those of us with more left to learn.

Here is how 1 January 2022 started, and one of the reasons I love this life.

Thank you to everyone, even the rag-baggers with clanging halyards, the stink-pots with roaring generators, the noisy buggers playing music loudly in "my" anchorage, and even those water gnats (aka jet skis) who buzzed my Seaweed last weekend. Life aboard is amazing. Truly we are all incredibly fortunate.

 

[DWJensen]

Thank you to everyone, even the rag-baggers with clanging halyards, the stink-pots with roaring generators, the noisy buggers playing music loudly in "my" anchorage, and even those water gnats (aka jet skis) who buzzed my Seaweed last weekend. Life aboard is amazing. Truly we are all incredibly fortunate.

Hi Janice - Off topic a bit, but did you happen to spend some time on the hard in St. Marys about 8 or so years back? If so, long time no see...

D&J
formerly of IP38 Pau Hana

 

[janice142]

Hi Janice - Off topic a bit, but did you happen to spend some time on the hard in St. Marys about 8 or so years back? If so, long time no see...

D&J
formerly of IP38 Pau Hana

Oh my gosh, yes. I remember your beautiful Pau Hana. And, there's another fellow (Pacific NW, boat insurance guy) who has your boat name as his userid. I'm sure he thought I was a nut-case for the chatty message I sent upon seeing him/thinking it was you.

Hoping you are doing well. J.

 

[Bryant]

Broker

Wow, thanks for all the great advice. Let me add some specifics and see if I can get more!

I have plenty of experience owning/operating small runabouts on inland waters, but my experience with bigger stuff is limited to houseboats, and a week last summer when I bareboat chartered a 33' tug. I have been researching doing a Great Loop trip for some time, and its getting close to time to buy a boat. To complicate matters, I need to buy this boat 'long distance', as I am located on the West coast, and will need to buy the boat somewhere on the loop. So my interest in a buyer's broker is someone to be my advocate/guide in an area where I have little experience, and also someone who can get eyes on a boat to give an initial evaluation, without me having to spend thousands in travel costs to do s


Given these particulars, any advice on how best to proceed?

(BTW, I'm sure many of you will tell me I'm in way over my head. And perhaps I am. But I think I can pull this off - although I'm new to cruising, I do have experience with engines, mechanical systems, electrical/electronic systems, navigation, etc. etc. I have been researching this for a couple years - there's tons I need to learn, but I didn't just wake up yesterday and decide I wanted to do this.

My GB 36 Classic is listed with Galati Yacht Sales, Orange Beach, Al. 251-512-5767. Very nice, well maintained and refurbished boat. Good place to start The Loop. Recent survey (3 months old) you can look over.

 

[alormaria]

Boat brokerage is very much like Real Estate sales with the possibility of drowning.

 

[Bryant]

Broker

David,


Hope you're kidding. Sounds like a seller that doesn't want to sell.



I've done that with the last 20 boats I've purchased... no contract, no deposit for the most part. However, yes, I pay for the costs, but often refused. If one is going to spend $200k on a boat, the LEAST thing a seller could do is take him for a ride and show him that things are working.

However, if I can't arrange a survey/inspection or there's work the PO must do, I will put down a deposit with the offer, held by my rep, or the seller, depending. Never a problem, however. Yes, I've passed on a few unscrupulous brokers that don't want to sell boats.

I don’t know where you buy and sell but I don’t do “joy rides”. I doubt very seriously that you’ve bought 20 boats with no contract and no deposits, but having said that, 90% of people looking at boats of this type are “tire kickers” and not seriously interested in buying. If they get a free day on the water, so much the better. As previously stated, my engine doesn’t start nor does the boat move out of the slip without a signed purchase agreement and honest money in escrow. I don’t know any reputable broker that does business in any other way.

 

[Bryant]

Brokerage

Boat brokerage is very much like Real Estate sales with the possibility of drowning.

It’s a two edged sword. A FSBO sale requires the seller to take every crackpot and tire kicker to his boat, set up escrow, do paperwork and market the boat. In Florida, FSBO sales require the seller to collect tax upon the sale. There are numerous reasons for boats of this type and cost to be listed with a broker. Just find a reputable one. It isn’t hard.

 

[kwalling]

Janice142, Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Frank looks like a real salty seafarer ? I am going to check out some brokers at the Seattle Boat Show next month. Looking forward to seeing some nice trawlers too.

 

[Jc180]

It’s a two edged sword. A FSBO sale requires the seller to take every crackpot and tire kicker to his boat, set up escrow, do paperwork and market the boat. In Florida, FSBO sales require the seller to collect tax upon the sale. There are numerous reasons for boats of this type and cost to be listed with a broker. Just find a reputable one. It isn’t hard.

Have different understanding of sales tax on FSBO in Florida. Tax is paid by buyer in state that he registers boat. Florida Tax not paid if boat moved out of Florida within a grace period (think maybe 90 days). If boat stays in Florida, Tax is paid to county clerk by buyer when Florida registration transferred. True weather boat is Documented or not.