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Old 06-03-2020, 10:18 AM   #1
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Puget Sound NDZ Survey

This rather long. I had a negative opinion.


https://confidential-survey.com/data...itysurvey7.htm
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Old 06-03-2020, 11:18 AM   #2
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I took it. Not sure how or where the answers go. Seems well thought out. Thanks ASD.
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Old 06-03-2020, 12:05 PM   #3
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I took it. I wonder which Puget Sound tree hugger group put it out. I never did see any reference to who sponsored the survey.
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Old 06-03-2020, 12:08 PM   #4
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It was put out by the Washington State Dept of Ecology.
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Old 06-03-2020, 02:50 PM   #5
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In the south sound the vast majority of boats on the water are trailerable I've never seen a type 3 head in any boat that would be routinely trailered... The more modest operators have a pee bucket, most guys don't bother with the bucket...
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Old 06-03-2020, 03:58 PM   #6
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They probably won't like my responses and will ignore them.
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Old 06-05-2020, 11:21 PM   #7
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I have mixed feelings on this, yes we should all do our part. My vacu-flush system has no means to pump overboard beside a station.

But when they (city/county) dump 3-6 million gallons of untreated sewer in the water every time it rains hard and then blame some middle management guy over everything yet do nothing to fix the problem. And then turn around and point fingers at the boats....

Its not right.
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Old 06-06-2020, 10:40 AM   #8
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I have mixed feelings on this, yes we should all do our part. My vacu-flush system has no means to pump overboard beside a station.

But when they (city/county) dump 3-6 million gallons of untreated sewer in the water every time it rains hard and then blame some middle management guy over everything yet do nothing to fix the problem. And then turn around and point fingers at the boats....

Its not right.
This is really not a fair statement. King county, the worst offender, has been constructing a massive under ground storage facility to collect all run off for later treatment. This will stop the untreated dumps. This facility has been under construction for years and will still be many more years before completion but they are working the problem.

That said, it is clear that the department of ecology was taking a survey to determine how far they could go. Obviously by the questions, they have no concept of or simply donít care about personal rights.

The best way to respond to this survey is to push the point of inaccessible and non functioning pump outs. The NDZ is granted on the basis of adequate pump outs. Our best bet is to claim there is an inadequate number of pump outs. This will at least steer them towards more pump outs and away from dye tablets.
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Old 06-06-2020, 10:51 AM   #9
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This is really not a fair statement. King county, the worst offender, has been constructing a massive under ground storage facility to collect all run off for later treatment. This will stop the untreated dumps. This facility has been under construction for years and will still be many more years before completion but they are working the problem.

That said, it is clear that the department of ecology was taking a survey to determine how far they could go. Obviously by the questions, they have no concept of or simply donít care about personal rights.

The best way to respond to this survey is to push the point of inaccessible and non functioning pump outs. The NDZ is granted on the basis of adequate pump outs. Our best bet is to claim there is an inadequate number of pump outs. This will at least steer them towards more pump outs and away from dye tablets.

That was my impression also. While I support the NDZ in principle DOE needs to understand that for the NDZ to be successful they need to work WITH us not AGAINST us.
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Old 06-06-2020, 11:06 PM   #10
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This is really not a fair statement. King county, the worst offender, has been constructing a massive under ground storage facility to collect all run off for later treatment. This will stop the untreated dumps. This facility has been under construction for years and will still be many more years before completion but they are working the problem.

That said, it is clear that the department of ecology was taking a survey to determine how far they could go. Obviously by the questions, they have no concept of or simply donít care about personal rights.

The best way to respond to this survey is to push the point of inaccessible and non functioning pump outs. The NDZ is granted on the basis of adequate pump outs. Our best bet is to claim there is an inadequate number of pump outs. This will at least steer them towards more pump outs and away from dye tablets.
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That was my impression also. While I support the NDZ in principle DOE needs to understand that for the NDZ to be successful they need to work WITH us not AGAINST us.
Sorry guys I don't support the NDZ. It's targeting a small part of the community (recreational boats) as a "feel good" policy and has zero affect of raw sewage in Puget Sound. It's just not Seattle, its Tacoma, Bellingham etc pumping millions and millions of gallons of raw sewage into Puget Sound. Every time it happens they get fined a few dollars which is passed on to the consumer.

The next step, as indicated in the survey, is the State forcing you to put dye in your tank.

So the statement is a very fair statement. But this is still in court and with any luck the NDZ will be eliminated.
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Old 06-06-2020, 11:24 PM   #11
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Sorry guys I don't support the NDZ. It's targeting a small part of the community (recreational boats) as a "feel good" policy and has zero affect of raw sewage in Puget Sound. It's just not Seattle, its Tacoma, Bellingham etc pumping millions and millions of gallons of raw sewage into Puget Sound. Every time it happens they get fined a few dollars which is passed on to the consumer.

The next step, as indicated in the survey, is the State forcing you to put dye in your tank.

So the statement is a very fair statement. But this is still in court and with any luck the NDZ will be eliminated.



I couldn't agree more, It's a BS law that the Enviro nuts got passed on all us rich fat cat yachties!.

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Old 06-06-2020, 11:27 PM   #12
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Sorry guys I don't support the NDZ. It's targeting a small part of the community (recreational boats) as a "feel good" policy and has zero affect of raw sewage in Puget Sound. It's just not Seattle, its Tacoma, Bellingham etc pumping millions and millions of gallons of raw sewage into Puget Sound. Every time it happens they get fined a few dollars which is passed on to the consumer.

The next step, as indicated in the survey, is the State forcing you to put dye in your tank.

So the statement is a very fair statement. But this is still in court and with any luck the NDZ will be eliminated.
That too is my concern and objection. I don't want the poo police coming aboard and putting dye in my heads looking for minuscule leaks, which of course they will find. I have holding tanks, I have my "Y" valves locked out, I use pumpouts. They can check the "Y" valve lock out. Request, not require, me to keep a log of pumpouts. That's enough.

But I'm going to disagree with you on the need for recreational boats to control their sewage discharge because municipal treatment plants fail at times. I recall the days of seeing "yacht fish" in popular anchorages when heads simply discharged overboard. Just because it's macerated doesn't make it any less offensive.
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Old 06-07-2020, 12:04 AM   #13
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But I'm going to disagree with you on the need for recreational boats to control their sewage discharge because municipal treatment plants fail at times. I recall the days of seeing "yacht fish" in popular anchorages when heads simply discharged overboard. Just because it's macerated doesn't make it any less offensive.
We already have a federal law that prohibits dumping within 3nm of shore.

A new law of restrictive policy is not going to stop the "yacht fish." Even then the yacht fish have zero impact on the water quality in Puget Sound.

Just about any LEO (to include the dog catcher) in the NDZ has regulatory right to board your vessel to check your "Y" valve.
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Old 06-07-2020, 12:18 AM   #14
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That too is my concern and objection. I don't want the poo police coming aboard and putting dye in my heads looking for minuscule leaks, which of course they will find. I have holding tanks, I have my "Y" valves locked out, I use pumpouts. They can check the "Y" valve lock out. Request, not require, me to keep a log of pumpouts. That's enough.

But I'm going to disagree with you on the need for recreational boats to control their sewage discharge because municipal treatment plants fail at times. I recall the days of seeing "yacht fish" in popular anchorages when heads simply discharged overboard. Just because it's macerated doesn't make it any less offensive.
when holding tanks became mandatory, it was to make possible no direct overboard in marinas and anchorages. Once that went over well as most agreed with the clean anchorage idea, then the enviro people went a step further. At first we had only pump outs, but we did not have enough and reasonably located PO. So they designed a 3 mile offshore rule in which OK to empty the tanks. For most even that was not too inconvenient crossing the straight there was plenty of places to unload.
Within the Gulf Islands or San Juans that is more difficult.
Imagine my surprise when I needed to empty the tank and the nearest PO was closed for the winter. To the regs, I discovered that IF a PO is not within reasonable distance, "go ahead and discharge in the deepest, fastest current while underway". It seems since PO did not meet a potential demand the gov relaxed the rules. This is Canada, what about the US?
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Old 06-07-2020, 12:34 AM   #15
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Since when can any LEO board my boat without probable cause? (Excepting Coast Guard safety checks.)
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Old 06-07-2020, 12:41 AM   #16
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Since when can any LEO board my boat without probable cause? (Excepting Coast Guard safety checks.)
Read the law. PC is no longer needed within the NDZ and can board as checking enforcement of locked out "Y" valves, thru-hull, and switches.

There is no comparison to Canada. I can legally dump just about anywhere.
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Old 06-07-2020, 01:06 AM   #17
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We already have a federal law that prohibits dumping within 3nm of shore.

A new law of restrictive policy is not going to stop the "yacht fish." Even then the yacht fish have zero impact on the water quality in Puget Sound.

Just about any LEO (to include the dog catcher) in the NDZ has regulatory right to board your vessel to check your "Y" valve.

Dog catcher? A bit of an exaggeration perhaps?



And to say that recreational boat sewage discharge has zero impact on Puget Sound water quality? Really? It's accurate to say it has less impact than treatment plant overflows, but not at all accurate to say it has zero impact.
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Old 06-07-2020, 01:13 AM   #18
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There are many points trying to be made here but there is also a lot of misunderstanding on how we got here. Is the NDZ over reaching? Everyone here thinks so. Pointing your finger at the big cities and saying look what they are dumping is not understanding the big picture. No city was dumping until they tied all the street run off to the sewer system. This makes for some problems but the sound is cleaner for it. All the named cities are working to build storage capacity to prevent this in the future. The cities and Ecology have a plan and it’s a waste of breath to try to use these over flows as an excuse to leave boaters alone.

When the Feds created the 3 mile dump limit they inadvertently created a loop hole. The loophole allows boats to dump so many parts per million of raw sewage per hour. Guess what, the boating community exploited that loop hole and many of these so called treatment systems actually just dump raw sewage continually at a measured pace. While there are very few boats that use these systems none the less this became a burr in ecology’s saddle.

Now let’s get down to the real truth. There are no holding tank cops. Ecology is making a lot of noise to scare us and the best thing we can do is scream about a lack of pump outs because that directly affects their NDZ status.
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Old 06-07-2020, 08:39 AM   #19
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Another thing to think about. Yes, we boaters are small potatoes compared to King County's West Point overflows. But the West Point location flushes the sewage out to sea fairly quickly and the overflows are infrequent. We boaters on the other hand have the ability to spread our sewage all over the sound in places that don't flush well and can do so at all times. Some parts of Puget Sound only flush out a few times per year.

I think tiltrider1 is on the right track.

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.........
Ecology is making a lot of noise to scare us and the best thing we can do is scream about a lack of pump outs because that directly affects their NDZ status.
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Old 06-07-2020, 03:11 PM   #20
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Dog catcher? A bit of an exaggeration perhaps?



And to say that recreational boat sewage discharge has zero impact on Puget Sound water quality? Really? It's accurate to say it has less impact than treatment plant overflows, but not at all accurate to say it has zero impact.
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Originally Posted by tiltrider1 View Post
There are many points trying to be made here but there is also a lot of misunderstanding on how we got here. Is the NDZ over reaching? Everyone here thinks so. Pointing your finger at the big cities and saying look what they are dumping is not understanding the big picture. No city was dumping until they tied all the street run off to the sewer system. This makes for some problems but the sound is cleaner for it. All the named cities are working to build storage capacity to prevent this in the future. The cities and Ecology have a plan and itís a waste of breath to try to use these over flows as an excuse to leave boaters alone.

When the Feds created the 3 mile dump limit they inadvertently created a loop hole. The loophole allows boats to dump so many parts per million of raw sewage per hour. Guess what, the boating community exploited that loop hole and many of these so called treatment systems actually just dump raw sewage continually at a measured pace. While there are very few boats that use these systems none the less this became a burr in ecologyís saddle.

Now letís get down to the real truth. There are no holding tank cops. Ecology is making a lot of noise to scare us and the best thing we can do is scream about a lack of pump outs because that directly affects their NDZ status.
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Another thing to think about. Yes, we boaters are small potatoes compared to King County's West Point overflows. But the West Point location flushes the sewage out to sea fairly quickly and the overflows are infrequent. We boaters on the other hand have the ability to spread our sewage all over the sound in places that don't flush well and can do so at all times. Some parts of Puget Sound only flush out a few times per year.

I think tiltrider1 is on the right track.
I ain't drinking the Kool-Aid!

Comparing millions and millions of gallons of raw untreated sewage to the a very few recreational boaters who actually dump overboard is ridiculous and not at all the reality. Even if there was a way to actually count how many gallons are dumped overboard by boats, it still would come close to what Seattle, Tacoma and others put in the Puget Sound waters.

Maybe not the dog catcher, but there is or will be, enforcement by LEOs and the law gives communities to hire and create holding take cops. USCG has bailed out on this one. Mark my words it won't be long before you enter Friday Harbor and are required to have a marina employee flush some dye tablets in your head. Happens in Kookaforia as we speak.
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