Puget Sound NDZ and Dye Tablets

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I had heard that there was a move to require recreational boaters within the Puget Sound NDZ to put dye tablets in black tanks.

I contacted RBAW (Recreational Boating Association of Washington), Doug Levy.

Below was their response:

Tom


Someone else had relayed that. I have not heard it. Dept. of Ecology has not begun enforcing the NDZ, has not been budgeted any $ for NDZ, and is in the middle of a federal lawsuit involving underlying arguments such as the sufficiency of pumpout capacity – so I would be surprised if something like this were underway.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So does anyone have a issue with an 'enforcers boarding your boat to deposit a purple dye tablet in your system?

I know places in SO Cali have this issue. Florida?

It looks like no enforcement in Puget Sound until all the court cases are resolved.

 

[Xsbank]

One humpback whale dump is probably equivalent to 25 trawlers. Start feeding the humpies dye?

 

[hollywood8118]

I had heard that there was a move to require recreational boaters within the Puget Sound NDZ to put dye tablets in black tanks.

I contacted RBAW (Recreational Boating Association of Washington), Doug Levy.

Below was their response:

Tom


Someone else had relayed that. I have not heard it. Dept. of Ecology has not begun enforcing the NDZ, has not been budgeted any $ for NDZ, and is in the middle of a federal lawsuit involving underlying arguments such as the sufficiency of pumpout capacity – so I would be surprised if something like this were underway.

Never going to happen.
No budget for it.


Sounds like fake news to get boaters riled up.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[rgano]

I heard a firsthand report of state officers boarding boats and placing dye in the toilets and then ordering the toilet flushed to observe results. This was some years back over in the Jacksonville area to catch southbound vessels coming in from Georgia. Have not hear it again though.

 

[tiltrider1]

I find the concept humorous. Go ahead, pass a law that says I have to have dye in my holding tank. Now what, are you going to pull me over and pump me out to see if I complied? Harbors are going to make me drop the tablets before I can dock? So what, I would never pump out in a marina. Are they going to start flying air patrols looking for a line of dye following boats. The cost of enforcement is beyond what the state is willing to pay.

 

[lwarden]

I've had them do it in Avalon harbor on Catalina a few years ago, but I don't think they still do. Didn't seem like that big of a deal. What is all the worry about it?

 

[alfamike]

Dye in the head

I had them do that in Santa Barbara Harbor a few years back when we were guests there. Perminately based residents don't have it done to them, just visiting boats going to guest slips.

Not an issue because I always switch over to Holding tank whenever we go in to harbor or marina.

Avalon did it as well, but again that was a few years back.

Does anyone know if either location I have mentioned still do this ?

Thanks.

 

[Opu]

Avalon still requires the dye tab test. Failing the test or interfering with it gets you removed from the harbor and denied use of the harbor for a year. If you refuse to take the test you can’t use the harbor.

Oceanside Harbor requires us to have our boats inspected every three years and they do a dye test as part of the inspection.

 

[BruceK]

Royal Purple

Being of royal blood our "output" is,of course, purple . So how could the Poo Police tell?

 

[lwarden]

Being of royal blood our "output" is,of course, purple . So how could the Poo Police tell?

Dye tablets are green so your purple poop is of no consequence.

 

[READY]

I believe Avalon has the regulation but in my visits in 2020 they did not do it. Perhaps that may be because of Covid. But i was there in 2019 and no one asked or offered either.

 

[HeadMistress]

Avalon still requires the dye tab test. Failing the test or interfering with it gets you removed from the harbor and denied use of the harbor for a year. If you refuse to take the test you can’t use the harbor.

2-3 years ago I read a report (I wish I'd saved it!) discussing the dilapidated condition of municipal sewer systems in US coastal cities that cited the 10 dirtiest harbors in the US. Avalon was #1! The sewer pipes on Catalina are in such bad condition that almost 100& of its sewage goes into the water raw, almost all of it into Avalon. Key West harbor was also high on that list, due to both the condition of its sewer pipes but also because they only extend about 1 mile from shore.

The situation in Puget Sound is typical of politically motivated NDZ laws--which almost all of them are. About 10 years ago I read a Canadian release that wasn't supposed to "go public" that due to insufficient budget, they were leaving all ND enforcement up to provincial and local authorities. It disappeared before I thought to save it.

Although it's rare to read that a state openly admits that there's little or no enforcement of draconian NDZ laws, enforcement is so expensive that I suspect that there's a lot less than those who rammed them down our throats want us to believe.

I've saved the quote from the Doug Levy, RBAW (Recreational Boating Association of Washington), re enforcement in Puget Sound to post on other sites.

--Peggie

 

[soin2la]

One humpback whale dump is probably equivalent to 25 trawlers. Start feeding the humpies dye?

Now that’s funny and something most people, including boaters never think about.

Eating up to 2,000 pounds of food in a day, humpback whales excrete mostly liquid fish fertilizer, contributing to the ocean’s ecosystems, while humans dump mostly rum, Klondike Bars and narcotics as biowaste.

Thus, I'd still rather swim in Johnstone Strait than Von Donop.

The average humpback whale produces +/-250 gal urine per day and +/- 60 gallons of poop in a movement several times a day. https://youtu.be/iGdiqbHESIA?t=73

 

[lwarden]

Avalon still requires the dye tab test. Failing the test or interfering with it gets you removed from the harbor and denied use of the harbor for a year. If you refuse to take the test you can’t use the harbor.

2-3 years ago I read a report (I wish I'd saved it!) discussing the dilapidated condition of municipal sewer systems in US coastal cities that cited the 10 dirtiest harbors in the US. Avalon was #1! The sewer pipes on Catalina are in such bad condition that almost 100& of its sewage goes into the water raw, almost all of it into Avalon. Key West harbor was also high on that list, due to both the condition of its sewer pipes but also because they only extend about 1 mile from shore.

The situation in Puget Sound is typical of politically motivated NDZ laws--which almost all of them are. About 10 years ago I read a Canadian release that wasn't supposed to "go public" that due to insufficient budget, they were leaving all ND enforcement up to provincial and local authorities. It disappeared before I thought to save it.

Although it's rare to read that a state openly admits that there's little or no enforcement of draconian NDZ laws, enforcement is so expensive that I suspect that there's a lot less than those who rammed them down our throats want us to believe.

I've saved the quote from the Doug Levy, RBAW (Recreational Boating Association of Washington), re enforcement in Puget Sound to post on other sites.

--Peggie

We spend a fair bit of time in Avalon, although not at all in 2020. I've seen them ripping up the streets and repairing pipes pretty regularly, I can believe they have their share of issues in the infrastructure department. Since we have been going to Avalon since the 60's we have seen improvements in the water quality in the harbor, but it still has a significant amount of pollution, mostly oil though. The one thing Avalon has is a pretty good computer system for managing the moorings and so on. They always know who I am when I pull in from my CF numbers. I suspect they keep track of if they've done the dye test. It will be interesting when I bring in our new boat to see if they do the check, provided the Covid issue has settled down. I expect they put the test on hold during this period.

 

[MYTraveler]

Never going to happen.
No budget for it.


Sounds like fake news to get boaters riled up.
HOLLYWOOD

That won't stop them -- simple matter to charge a "user fee" to go along with the dye. It is really just a question of political will, and sentiment against governmental intrusion is swinging rapidly. Part of the strategy is to portray the opposition (to whatever governmental intrusion is desired) as that of "far-right kooks". Examples abound.

 

[MYTraveler]

We spend a fair bit of time in Avalon, although not at all in 2020. I've seen them ripping up the streets and repairing pipes pretty regularly, I can believe they have their share of issues in the infrastructure department. Since we have been going to Avalon since the 60's we have seen improvements in the water quality in the harbor, but it still has a significant amount of pollution, mostly oil though. The one thing Avalon has is a pretty good computer system for managing the moorings and so on. They always know who I am when I pull in from my CF numbers. I suspect they keep track of if they've done the dye test. It will be interesting when I bring in our new boat to see if they do the check, provided the Covid issue has settled down. I expect they put the test on hold during this period.

We go to Avalon only once or twice a year. Without exception, they come aboard and drop a dye tablet down each head, flush, then check to make sure the sea water around the boat is clear, demonstrating that the heads are not flushing overboard. If, as occasionally happens, a boat pumps any of its contents overboard, the surrounding water immediately turns a fluorescent yellow, from the dye. At that point, a citation is issued and the boat is expelled from Avalon for a year.

From your post, it sounds as if the Avalon Harbor Patrol doesn't routinely put dye in your heads? Is there some other "test" that you are referring to?

 

[lwarden]

We go to Avalon only once or twice a year. Without exception, they come aboard and drop a dye tablet down each head, flush, then check to make sure the sea water around the boat is clear, demonstrating that the heads are not flushing overboard. If, as occasionally happens, a boat pumps any of its contents overboard, the surrounding water immediately turns a fluorescent yellow, from the dye. At that point, a citation is issued and the boat is expelled from Avalon for a year.

From your post, it sounds as if the Avalon Harbor Patrol doesn't routinely put dye in your heads? Is there some other "test" that you are referring to?

They almost never do the dye thing on our old boat. I had assumed they had either stopped doing it or only do it the first time the boat comes in and once they have it on record they don't continue it. Perhaps they don't bother with the smaller boats anymore, this one was only 26'.

 

[SteveK]

Public service announcement

What does orange and green make?
Orange and green when mixed together will neutralize each other, which means they will create a neutral color (brown) which is neither orange nor green. But that said, what kind of a brown they make will depend on what kind of orange and what kind of green being used.

 

[lwarden]

BTW, I've pumped out a holding tank with the green dye once out of Avalon and it's impressive. Think rescue swimmer dye markers. You don't want to try that in the harbor.

 

[lwaugaman]

Avalon still requires the dye tab test. Failing the test or interfering with it gets you removed from the harbor and denied use of the harbor for a year. If you refuse to take the test you can’t use the harbor.

2-3 years ago I read a report (I wish I'd saved it!) discussing the dilapidated condition of municipal sewer systems in US coastal cities that cited the 10 dirtiest harbors in the US. Avalon was #1! The sewer pipes on Catalina are in such bad condition that almost 100& of its sewage goes into the water raw, almost all of it into Avalon. Key West harbor was also high on that list, due to both the condition of its sewer pipes but also because they only extend about 1 mile from shore.

The situation in Puget Sound is typical of politically motivated NDZ laws--which almost all of them are. About 10 years ago I read a Canadian release that wasn't supposed to "go public" that due to insufficient budget, they were leaving all ND enforcement up to provincial and local authorities. It disappeared before I thought to save it.

Although it's rare to read that a state openly admits that there's little or no enforcement of draconian NDZ laws, enforcement is so expensive that I suspect that there's a lot less than those who rammed them down our throats want us to believe.

I've saved the quote from the Doug Levy, RBAW (Recreational Boating Association of Washington), re enforcement in Puget Sound to post on other sites.

--Peggie

Avalon Water Quality Link:
Bay Water Quality - Avalon, California

 

[Bob M]

That won't stop them -- simple matter to charge a "user fee" to go along with the dye. It is really just a question of political will, and sentiment against governmental intrusion is swinging rapidly. Part of the strategy is to portray the opposition (to whatever governmental intrusion is desired) as that of "far-right kooks". Examples abound.

Not just "far-right kooks," also other kooks, like anarchists, libertarians and others, who don't want to be bothered by the laws and regulations created via democratic (small 'd') processes.

 

[slowgoesit]

Dye testing could be considered Destructive testing.

One of the legal issues (not sure of terminology) with testing with dye tablets, especially if undertaken somewhere other than at a dock, is since the tests requires flushing of toilets to work, the test uses items of value that the owner of the boat is forced to provide ie; fresh water to flush the toilet if so equipped, and fills a limited capacity holding tank with multiple flushes of the toilet. A person might then argue that they now have to return to the dock to have their holding tank pumped and fresh water tanks filled so they can do their trip, which will consume $$ (cost of pump outs and fuel/engine time to return to the dock) and time (which has value to the boater), so the test can be argued to be a "destructive test" which the boater may refuse unless compensation is offered, since it imposes expense, time loss, or possible early termination of a trip since the boater now has less fresh water available, and partially filled holding tanks. Just one of the legal hoops authorities need to consider when deciding whether or not to enforce . . .

 

[Capt Ray]

Bruce K. Regarding Royal Blood and all...

That reminds me of when we have visitors aboard who complement us on how fresh our head smells, we tell them, "It's our diet!" <wink>

 

[Delfin]

Not just "far-right kooks," also other kooks, like anarchists, libertarians and others, who don't want to be bothered by the laws and regulations created via democratic (small 'd') processes.

Don't forget marine biologist kooks, who will tell you than non point pollution sources are not only not harmful, but in most areas arguably beneficial. For example, Dixie Lee Ray, former head of the AEC and Washington governor (D) wrote in her book on the environment that the best thing that could happen to the Puget Sound is for pleasure craft to empty their potties as they putted around, since the Sound is largely oxygen starved. Other biologists belief that a chunk of carbon pollution could be reduced if the whale population increased, since their prodigious poop discharges increase bio-activity of carbon fixing critters.


There are kooks all over, apparently, and not all them libertarians.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

One of the legal issues (not sure of terminology) with testing with dye tablets, especially if undertaken somewhere other than at a dock, is since the tests requires flushing of toilets to work, the test uses items of value that the owner of the boat is forced to provide ie; fresh water to flush the toilet if so equipped, and fills a limited capacity holding tank with multiple flushes of the toilet. A person might then argue that they now have to return to the dock to have their holding tank pumped and fresh water tanks filled so they can do their trip, which will consume $$ (cost of pump outs and fuel/engine time to return to the dock) and time (which has value to the boater), so the test can be argued to be a "destructive test" which the boater may refuse unless compensation is offered, since it imposes expense, time loss, or possible early termination of a trip since the boater now has less fresh water available, and partially filled holding tanks. Just one of the legal hoops authorities need to consider when deciding whether or not to enforce . . .

Great point. Now if you receive a citation to find a lawyer who will argue this point.

 

[AdkChris]

Interesting question

One humpback whale dump is probably equivalent to 25 trawlers. Start feeding the humpies dye?

That raises a few questions.

The number of humpback whales and other wild life is limited by the food sources. So wouldn't the number of wildlife dumps be limited. Boaters on the other hand get their food shipped in from all over the globe so boaters dumps could be almost unlimited.

So far as we know there is little to no cross infection from the bacteria and viruses in humpback whale dumps to humans. Not so for human dumps.

I have long thought that government agency's like the IRS, SEC and EPA go after the small offenders first and with more gusto as a way of looking busy without working hard and to divert attention from more serious offenders with deep pockets and political connections.

 

[READY]

Delfin I just read an interview by Dixie Ray from 1991. She also did not believe freon was a problem and it would be cost prohibitive to refrigerate when it was outlawed. No problem with nuclear energy, no such thing as global warming or greenhose gases. And no problem with asbestos. So I am not sure now in 2021 I will be hanging my hat on her beliefs. Personally I don't want boats dumping in bays or harbors and if dye tabs is a deterent i can live with that. I am not opposed to pump overboard at sea when pump outs are not practical. I don't see this as far right or left but just common sense and practical. I enjoy Avalon and having 250 moorings tightly packed with boats dumping heads would lead to an unplesant and unsafe experience. That kind of sums up my view.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Delfin I just read an interview by Dixie Ray from 1991. She also did not believe freon was a problem and it would be cost prohibitive to refrigerate when it was outlawed. No problem with nuclear energy, no such thing as global warming or greenhose gases. And no problem with asbestos. So I am not sure now in 2021 I will be hanging my hat on her beliefs. Personally I don't want boats dumping in bays or harbors and if dye tabs is a deterent i can live with that. I am not opposed to pump overboard at sea when pump outs are not practical. I don't see this as far right or left but just common sense and practical. I enjoy Avalon and having 250 moorings tightly packed with boats dumping heads would lead to an unplesant and unsafe experience. That kind of sums up my view.

It's already illegal to dump unless you are 3nm out to sea, so this NDZ is directed toward folks that have an Electra san system and commercial boats like tugs.

 

[firehoser75]

That raises a few questions.

The number of humpback whales and other wild life is limited by the food sources. So wouldn't the number of wildlife dumps be limited. Boaters on the other hand get their food shipped in from all over the globe so boaters dumps could be almost unlimited.

So far as we know there is little to no cross infection from the bacteria and viruses in humpback whale dumps to humans. Not so for human dumps.

I have long thought that government agency's like the IRS, SEC and EPA go after the small offenders first and with more gusto as a way of looking busy without working hard and to divert attention from more serious offenders with deep pockets and political connections.

Chris,
I agree totally. Many Governments go after the "rich" pleasure boater and leave the large polluters alone just so they can brag about all that they are doing for the environment.
Admittedly there is some (very small) argument that "it all adds up", but it makes no sense to me to go after the less than 1% of the problem and ignore the largest issues like ground water runoff!
Ready,
I was out on a whale watching boat when a humpback surfaced near us and proceeded to do his/her business. All I can say is HOLY COW!! It was massive. XSbank is probably low on his estimate.
My view of Government regs like dye tabs, grey water restrictions, etc. is go for it, but only after ALL other sources of water pollution have been addressed and actually solved. Then, it might actually make sense.
JMHO backed up with what I consider to be "common sense".