Propulsion Cost: Sail vs. Trawler

[N4061]

Sail versus Power

You guys are killing me with this thread. Just as we start our new journey with sailing (granted still cruising under power and have not taken the sails out of the bag) we are thinking about the possibilities. Sailing along the coastline on the perfect weather day, sun shining and the only the sound is the boat cutting through the water.

Will the next boat be a larger day sailor, a Pilothouse design or motor sailor which most folks say does nothing well? I have no clue but enjoying the journey (so far).

Then I read this thread with special attention to the post related to "age" and the creature comforts we all have come to appreciate over time. Going backwards has not been as tough as we thought (so far) as we plan our 1-2 hour harbor cruises around the amount of liquid we take in prior to departure (the new porta Potti is still in the box). Waiting for the perfect weather (75 degrees and sunshine) may have resulted in fewer trips this winter than we might have taken with the trawler, but when we are out on the water being open to elements is refreshing and something we missed the past 15 years (getting older).

All fun and looking forward to more posts on this subject as we continue to learn more about going without power (sometimes).

John T.

 

[long-cours.62]

THe best way to see how many hour sailing boat do under motor, is to look at the advertising and a great % have thousand hour on their engine


example

Tortarolo 38 engine 2010 2000h
Mahé36 EVO 2013 2000h
Nautitech 46 Fly de 2020 610h
Lagon 39 engine 2017, 2500 h
Bali 4.1 Catspace 2021 900h
Bavaria 42 2005 1700h
Sun Odyssey 439 2015 2300h....

 

[DDW]

**A friend of mine once said "The difference between a sailboat and a powerboat is a sailboat only uses their engines 95% of the time"

This depends on the area, and how patient you are. The world was explored under sail, with no motors at all, and there are still a few (a very few) who do this. Again as an example, my sailboat launched new in 2009 has about 16,000 miles showing on the log. It has about 1100 hours on the engine meter. Probably 100 - 200 or that is entering exiting harbor, setting retrieving anchor, and (rarely) charging batteries. 1000 hours at 6.5 knots makes about 40% motoring. 3 seasons in the PNW was probably 90+ motoring which skews it a little. Now back on SF Bay with very dependable wind, arrived there in 2018 with 1/2 tank (45 gal) and still have most of it. Previous sailboat I kept on SF Bay for 15 years and I bought diesel twice I think, 30 gallon tank.

But I've seen many, many days when sailing was perfectly glorious, and many sailboats chose to motor.

 

[JLD]

The hour difference, often, is how the sailboat is used. If you are travelling to a destination, point A to point B as quickly as possible, then motors are often use as the wind doesn't always blow ya where you want to go. This is especially true of folks who just use their boats for an afternoon or day sail.

If you are sailing, just for the joy of sailing, or don't have to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible, then you may see a lot less hours on a sailboat motor.

Regarding motorsailers, I have no personal experience with these, but I have been told that motoring is often done along with having the sails up, as many of these boats simply don't sail as efficiently as regular sailboats.

Jim

 

[2savage]

My experiences with costs, sail vs. power;

When I raced my 36 foot C&C34+ I would budget $35,000 a year. This included bottom cleaning, running rigging replacement, one sail, race entry fees and breakages.

When I quit racing and cruised the same boat my annual costs dropped to $15,000 or there abouts.

The brief period when I cruised my Ranger 29 Tug (260HP Yanmar inboard) the costs for engine repairs was stupid. $11,000 in six months. Add fuel and other expenses and I was spending $25,000 a year. But, my wife always wanted to get to our destination PDQ so fuel was excessive.

Now with the Seaton 50 trawler I expect fuel to be a significant expense. However, this will be less than the Ranger Tug because I'll be doing 7 knots not 17. Also everything costs more for a large boat so my budget is $40,000.

So, to sum up there cannot be any real comparison between the three. Each boat is unique in its characteristics and I have used each one in a very different way. I have avoided comparing other factors of power vs. sail because that is not what the OP asked for.

 

[JWellington]

My experiences with costs, sail vs. power;

When I raced my 36 foot C&C34+ I would budget $35,000 a year. This included bottom cleaning, running rigging replacement, one sail, race entry fees and breakages.

When I quit racing and cruised the same boat my annual costs dropped to $15,000 or there abouts.

The brief period when I cruised my Ranger 29 Tug (260HP Yanmar inboard) the costs for engine repairs was stupid. $11,000 in six months. Add fuel and other expenses and I was spending $25,000 a year. But, my wife always wanted to get to our destination PDQ so fuel was excessive.

Now with the Seaton 50 trawler I expect fuel to be a significant expense. However, this will be less than the Ranger Tug because I'll be doing 7 knots not 17. Also everything costs more for a large boat so my budget is $40,000.

So, to sum up there cannot be any real comparison between the three. Each boat is unique in its characteristics and I have used each one in a very different way. I have avoided comparing other factors of power vs. sail because that is not what the OP asked for.

Yes, that sounds more like it, and of course hugely variable. On anther angle we seldom hear of costs vis a vis fuel//marina fees. Only occassionaly will a guy tell us what last years expenses were for diesel, and how much for marina fees. When we do , all that supposed 'free wind' didnt amout to much in the stats.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have been a long distance sailboat cruiser for decades. Have many friends with the same lifestyle. Much of the above is complete and total nonsense with no resemblance to my or their reality.
Have done the Salty Dawg rally round trip (or the same trip outside the rally) 9 times. Trip is a straight shot of 1700-2000nm. We carried 200g total of fuel. Average use 100-125g. Average <1 day out of 8-14 days using fuel for propulsion. There’s 50-75 boats in the rally. Their use is similar. Did make the trip home once with <50g use.
Once in Caribbean generally fuel up once just prior to leaving in the spring. Fuel use is limited to just genset (making water) or finding a spot in the anchorage or getting out.
Member of Ocean Cruising Club so talk with other members. Many are RTW or transoceanic sailors. Their fuel use is similar.
No argument day sailors and those confined by work schedules by use more fuel. For them being coastal that’s what other coastal boats are more likely to see. Most modern sailboats are FASTER under sail than power. Both light air and heavy weather is rare. You use your sails if you want to get somewhere.
This is also true for long coastal hops. Have done the hop from/to Chesapeake to Rhode Island many times. There’s two ways. Go inside Long Island sound. Use the C&D canal. Or make a right leaving Block Island Sound and another right to enter the Chesapeake. The outside is faster. Better wind. Better VMG. Easier navigation. On the trip north outside is much faster. Even not going out to pick up the Gulf Stream wind and current makes for a faster trip. Inside you may need to turn on the engine time to time. Definitely in the East River and the C&D. Outside you don’t except for landfall. So again what you see coastally is just not representative of how many sailboats are used.
This is the last decade. Prior raced time to time. Of course engine is not permitted. It’s DQ. So average engine use the same or less. Don’t think I’m unusual. There’s a large segment of sailboat owners using their engines 5% to maybe 10% of the time in both coastal and offshore settings. Have liveaboard friends on a fixed or limited income. Their attitude is they’ve paid for their sails. They’re handy with a sailrite machine. They’re not limited by schedules. Fuel is expensive. Their sails are up nearly 100% of the time even if it’s just to motorsail and improve mpg.

 

[rslifkin]

Engine use on a sailboat will definitely vary based on location and the boat in question. The more reliable the wind in the area you're cruising, the less often you'll have a desire to motor. And the better your boat sails (especially in light air), the more sailing you'll do.


On the faster under sail point, that's a good point for most decent sailing boats. Many boats that sail well just aren't powered to cruise along at hull speed (or just below) continuously while motoring. Many sailboats are pretty loud, shaky, and unpleasant to motor as well, as in many cases, it seems like the engine installation was an "oh yeah, they probably want an engine for docking" type of afterthought.

 

[Circumnavigator]

Several posts have suggested that you need to replace standing rigging in a sailboat after eight to ten years. I beg to differ.


The life of a rig depends largely on the original quality of the materials and installation. Properly sized wire with Norseman fittings -- not swaged -- has an indefinite life. On the other hand, the rigging on many production boats -- not quite big enough and with swaged fittings may have a very short life if used actively.



When we were preparing Sweetwater, our Swan 57 sloop, for our circumnav, we had the whole rig gone over by Kevin Montague, now of Northeast Rigging. I've know Kevin now for 40 years and trust him very much. At the time, the rig was 14 years old and had not seen much maintenance in the previous ten years. He went over it carefully and told us that it would be fine for the circumnav. Our surveyor, Norm LeBlanc, said the same thing.


Three years and 33,000 miles later, the rig was still fine.


As another example, the boat I raced on for 20 years -- 20 to 30 races a year, sailed hard, in all kinds of weather, including a Halifax Race with 30-35 knots on the nose in 40 degree weather -- never had any of the standing rigging replaced.


-----


I also disagree with Hippocampus about chutes. Sure, it takes care and experience, but we carried a full size spinnaker on Sweetwater all across the Pacific, including most of the 3,000 miles from the Galapagos to the Marquesas. Three people on board -- all very experienced, my wife and I in our mid-50s and the third in her 40s.


Jim

 

[socalrider]

There are so many variables here - for circumnavigating via the tradewinds I'd certainly want sails - not just for the "free" fuel but for the aesthetic & acoustic experience, the stabilization, seaworthiness of a well-designed sailboat hull & built-in redundancy of a rig+aux engine.

For the coastal stuff we do in a venue with light & inconveniently oriented winds it's just really hard to beat the comfort & convenience of a trawler, which is why we switched. The fuel costs versus rig costs are both de minimus in this case.

In short: for the cruising I wish I was doing I'd have a sailboat. For the cruising I'm actually doing I'd have a trawler. I suspect this is true for a lot of people, many of whom have bought sailboats

 

[Taras]

I agree that the Standing Rigging probably shouldn't need to be replaced every 10 years. What is strange is that there are several Catamaran youtube channels that have stated that Insurance companies are now "requiring" this to bind coverage. Wondering if this is just for Cats or both Monohulls as well? The stresses on a Cat rig are much greater due to the rigidity of the structure and the fact that is no "heeling" as with a Monohull sailboat.

 

[Hippocampus]

Agree rod is much more durable than 1x19. Also agree with comment about insurance.

Commonly did passages short handed and even with four watch was one up. Found double headsails no main so much easier and lost nothing in speed. Boat was a Solent rig. Found with both sails on roller furling and with powered winches trimming, reefing or even going to one was easily done by one without waking anyone up. Only time two was necessary was setting up the cf poles. Other advantage was could just leave the pole(s) up when not in use. The parasailor came out for DDW in light air.
Prior was a big believer in codes and kites. But cruising want easy pleasy and safe. If wind builds quickly can just ease a sheet while pushing a button. Can’t beat it with a stick.

 

[DDW]

On downwind passages a sloop is just not a very efficient rig, without flying colored sails. Even if there is enough wind not to, main chafes the rigging, jib won't settle and stay full, etc. With twin heads you don't have those problems, but they are only good deep and at least some effort to rig. This is where the unstayed una rig shines as it has none of those problems and is quite efficient.

I've not had insurance companies demand that standing rigging be replaced, but I have had them demand a survey of all standing rigging. For me this was cheap as I have none.

 

[VEGA]

Hello everyone,

these are certainly questions discussed over and over again, very exciting for anyone planning a liveaboard.

And as it has been correctly described in the previous posts, it is quite clear that all these questions are related to the budget, the use case and the demands of the users. As so often in life, there is not only black and white.

But, one important point has not been described yet. We live in a time of change, there are worldwide megatrends that cannot be stopped. One of them is the imperative energy transition from fossil energies to renewable energies. We definitely owe this to our children.

I believe that the rapid development in the electric-car industry together with the equally rapid development of new technologies for the harvesting and storage of regenerative energies, will reach the boat sector faster than we think. You can already buy for many years a catamaran that runs 25/7 at moderate speed with electric motors. This will be possible in a few years with the expected increase in efficiency of photovoltaic elements and electricity storage also for an efficient monohull.

Think of Tesla. They are there since 2008.

Old boats could be converted, and new builds will be only marginally more expensive with electric propulsion than boats powered by diesel engines.

It will be our turn (my wife and I) in a few years. For this purpose, we are planning a 20 meter new build. Monohull, slim, long, efficient, safe, comfortable and ocean-going for a life on board on long passages and at anchor. Whether we can still wait for the electric technology for 24/7 propulsion before building, I do not know yet. But a hybrid technology will be for sure. And then the question of economy motorboat vs sailboat will no longer arise for us. We have already chosen the countless advantages of motorboat design. It will be the question of full electric motorboat vs hybrid motorboat.

happy easter, Benjamin

 

[Irish Rambler]

I follow your thought processes and felt I would like to add my tuppence worth.
The 'Green' approach is perfectly sensible if well thought out as opposed to Knee jerk reaction. The only two points I would make is that water and electric do not good bedfellows make and that diesel engines will still be around in 50 years, if you think 'out of the box' a diesel engine can run quite happily on other fuels providing you research it thoroughly first.

 

[socalrider]

If you want to see what near zero emission cruising looks like, check out Sailing Uma on YouTube. They have a sailboat with electric propulsion (and pretty minimal solar). They use the electric to get in and out of marinas. It works for them because they have lots and lots of time.

It takes a *lot* of solar to make enough electricity to cruise any sort of distance under power. That's a limitation of physics, not technology so unlikely to change soon. For most applications, sails will be more effective than solar as a zero-carbon primary propulsion energy source.

 

[Simi 60]

We have done the numbers before but to do a real comparison it has to be like for like vessels

By that I mean, we currently enjoy full size everything onboard, run more 240v refrigeration than we did on land, gave a seperate laundry, 2 bathrooms, walk around king size bed and storage space and load carrying ability for pretty much anything within reason

To have that on a sailing vessel would require something in the 70ft plus range I would suggest.
Likely a million dollar beasty to start so already we are a lifetime of fuel and maintenance in front and we haven't even looked at rig and sail costs, let alone how a couple can realistically control them.

Of course if you are happy to accept less comfort , space and amenities things do get easier to compare financially, but even on a decent 45fter yacht I reckon the power, if chosen wisely will come out as a more affordable option - in fact I know it can.

We have bought, run and cruise full time on a 60fter cheaper than many of our friends do on 40 - 45 ft sail.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Welcome aboard. Since you are planning a new build it MAY be possible to incorporate design features that can economically be changed over from a traditional fossil fuel power plant to a hybrid/all electrical drive system.



Start off your cruising with a diesel engine and as time and technology advance you can add or subtract power sources. Perhaps locate the engine in such a fashion so it doesn't have to be moved to add a generator or electric motor. Allow sufficient space in a location where you can add as many "batteries" as you wish without knocking out bulkheads or re-arranging ballasts. In other words, design your spaces that will allow changing systems without a major re-working of the boat's mechanical spaces. Install fuel tanks that are entirely accessible so they can easily be downsized, moved or removed.



I have no idea how to do this but a creative modular type design could minimize $$ to convert in the future.

 

[Art]

Greetings,
Welcome aboard. Since you are planning a new build it MAY be possible to incorporate design features that can economically be changed over from a traditional fossil fuel power plant to a hybrid/all electrical drive system.



Start off your cruising with a diesel engine and as time and technology advance you can add or subtract power sources. Perhaps locate the engine in such a fashion so it doesn't have to be moved to add a generator or electric motor. Allow sufficient space in a location where you can add as many "batteries" as you wish without knocking out bulkheads or re-arranging ballasts. In other words, design your spaces that will allow changing systems without a major re-working of the boat's mechanical spaces. Install fuel tanks that are entirely accessible so they can easily be downsized, moved or removed.



I have no idea how to do this but a creative modular type design could minimize $$ to convert in the future.

Well put RT!

 

[kthoennes]

...The days when my wife and I would poop in a litterbox, go without refrigeration eating salted fish, and brag about how we live on 1 gallon of freshwater a day (with those associated smells) are long gone.

Now that's hilarious. And true. We still charter sailboats once a year so we can be one with nature in those (relatively few) transcendent moments, but I sure enjoy sitting at the dining table under the aft deck roof with a hot cup of coffee on a rainy morning. But the old sail/power debate aside, I'm still always shocked at the cost of new sails. $20K? Sheesh, I could replace both my Marine Power (GM) 454's for that price. Well, okay, probably not including installation, but close.

 

[darkside]

With your stated goals I'd go electric propulsion straight away with a generator as the primary power source. Then have the generator/tankage removeable as solar or batteries get better.

The Herley 3400 is a great example of the technology as it stands today. Doesn't claim to be an ocean crosser but 2500nm at 8kn in a 34' boat is impressive.

https://boatingnz.co.nz/boat-reviews/herley-3400-electric-power-catamaran/

 

[Art]

Thanks Darkside.

Darn good beginner into the "electric motor" boat-future that will eventually take over. https://boatingnz.co.nz/boat-reviews/herley-3400-electric-power-catamaran/

Wonder how well [easily accessible, affordable] similar drive trains will become available as retrofit into boats such as mine... that will last for many years??

More I think about it...

Retro fit to electric propulsion should be relatively easy. Remove the fossil fuel engines and their transmissions [opens oodles of space]. Install one or two electric motors, big sets of new-age batts, a good gen set and solar panels. That's the answer - what's the question?? Oh yeah... then there's the co$t! May take a while before price$ come$ into line via ma$$ competition.

 

[markpierce]

Hot water on a diesel-powered boat costs no more than the water because it can be heated from "waste" energy coming from the engine.

 

[rslifkin]

Hot water on a diesel-powered boat costs no more than the water because it can be heated from "waste" energy coming from the engine.

Only if you've moved the boat recently enough. If you've stayed in 1 place for long enough without shore power you're going to want another option for making hot water.

 

[socalrider]

With your stated goals I'd go electric propulsion straight away with a generator as the primary power source. Then have the generator/tankage removeable as solar or batteries get better.

The Herley 3400 is a great example of the technology as it stands today. Doesn't claim to be an ocean crosser but 2500nm at 8kn in a 34' boat is impressive.

https://boatingnz.co.nz/boat-reviews/herley-3400-electric-power-catamaran/

Thanks for posting this - very interesting.

I do wonder what the net efficiency comparison would be between the spec'ed series hybrid (2x100kw electric + 120kW diesel genset) and, say, 2x80kW diesel direct drive. Or 2 equivalent Beta (parallel) hybrids.

Direct drive (parallel hybrid) is hard to beat on a passage when you're just putting away for hours and hours, sending that rotational energy straight through a prop shaft versus converting to electricity then back to rotational energy via electric motor. I'd estimate at least a 10% loss, but perhaps some of that could be made up by running the 120kW genset at its most efficient spot. You can do some interesting stuff with intake and exhaust tuning if you only run at one specific RPM. But it'd be great to see an actual detailed engineering comparison.

The claimed 0.5lph at 9kts is very good - a bit hard to believe to be honest.

Edit: just watched the video. A diesel stove?!? On this boat? Really?

Also, most of the flex solar panels are permanently shaded by the grab rail on the cabin top, and the radome will shade out several of the others at almost all times. This is not good design - they will have very poor output. It would be much better to put a smaller number of solid panels parallel to the grab rails.

 

[darkside]

Hot water on a diesel-powered boat costs no more than the water because it can be heated from "waste" energy coming from the engine.

The engine on the Herley is water cooled as you can see in the picture. Probably only 50C or so but still plenty for a shower. Also the primary energy is from the generator which is water cooled like most other diesels.

For the handrails on the roof my understanding is that modern solar panels cope way better with partial shading than those of the past.

 

[kthoennes]

Our boat (gasser 454's) is also plumbed to heat the house water through an exchanger from the starboard engine. That's not uncommon. We have a very good, relatively new hot water heater but I'm still surprised by how fast it heats up and how long the water stays hot, even hours after shutting down the engine. (This discussion is making me think about a solar array on the 9,000 square feet of bimini and aft roof again though. Well, about 300 square feet actually, but of course it won't go edge to edge, so let's say 200 sq ft * 15 watts per sq ft average (probably less here but let's say) = 3,000 watts? Wow, more than I thought.)

 

[Fish53]

I know this probably won't be a popular comment but these days there appears to be some reasons to consider the lessening of fossil fuel consumption. That being said my "trawler" uses about 1/3 of gallon per hour, my sailboat uses about 1/2 a gallon an hour when the engine is running.

 

[KnotYet]

I know this probably won't be a popular comment but these days there appears to be some reasons to consider the lessening of fossil fuel consumption. That being said my "trawler" uses about 1/3 of gallon per hour, my sailboat uses about 1/2 a gallon an hour when the engine is running.

A half gallon an hour is pretty typical for a medium size sailboat, say 30-40 ft.
A third of a gallon an hour is atypical for even a modest sized trawler, though.

 

[Simi 60]

I know this probably won't be a popular comment but these days there appears to be some reasons to consider the lessening of fossil fuel consumption. That being said my "trawler" uses about 1/3 of gallon per hour, my sailboat uses about 1/2 a gallon an hour when the engine is running.

Yeah but how much boat have you got in the sailboat vs trawler?
Is it a like for like comparison?