Propulsion Cost: Sail vs. Trawler

[Taras]

Hey All,
Wondering if anyone has seen a real world comparison between the "propulsion" costs between a Trawler and a Sailboat. I'm not just talking about the engine piece of it....I'm referring to all the cost of the sailing rig which must be maintained and replaced on a regular basis. I know that sails get "blown out" (stretched) over 4 years of cruising; standing rigging is required by insurance companies to be replaced every 10 years; running rigging replaced..... and then compare that to the extra fuel that is burned by a trawler. I know that the "optimal wind angle" doesn't always happen for a sailboat...in fact, many times they are motor sailing. Anyway, I wonder if this topic has been analyzed by any one this forum or elsewhere?
Which is cheaper? Also, you have the speed element as well (sailing typically slower).....
Thoughts?

 

[ksanders]

It is a dream day when a sail boat cruises at full displacement speed yet I can do it at any time.

The sailboat helmsman is outside rain or shine while I am sitting in a comfortable helm seat inside

Parking a similar size trawler style boat next to a sail boat of equal length will reveal that the sail boat is less than half the interior volume. As a liveaboard I can attest that volume is everything.

Nope, don't even need to consider the costs. Some things are priceless

 

[Snapdragon III]

Like everything in life the real answer is that it all depends, on the boats in question, and the usage. Here is my take on it. For most people, who don't put very many miles at all on their boats, trawlers are probably cheaper, propulsion wise. There are no sails, canvas, running rigging, standing rigging, masts, booms, etc that are getting ruined by the weather just sitting at the dock. Also, trawler engines seem like they generally get better care, and are likely to go more years, and hours than engines in sailboats. Many boats get so little use that the fuel costs are a drop in the bucket compared to other costs. This argument becomes less compiling when you start talking about "Trawlers" that go faster than hull speed. The time when I would say sailboats start looking way cheaper is when you are start crossing oceans. The main difference here more due to the size and cost of the boat it takes to safely cross an ocean. It is fairly strait forward to go almost anywhere in a 30'-50' sailboat, that can easily be purchased for less than a couple hundred grand. But there are way less choices for trawlers, and most of the ones you would want to cross oceans in are 50'+ and way more expensive than the typical sailboat. It cost me almost $10K in fuel to bring my trawler from Fiji to Anacortes last year. The Capitan I hired to bring the boat from Fiji to Hawaii ended up flying back to Fiji, then sailing his own boat back to Hawaii solo. He burned about 1500 gallons of diesel in my boat, and about 4 gallons in his boat for the same trip. He didn't even have to run his engine to charge the batteries because he was sailing upwind, and the solar and wind generator kept his batteries up. He showed up in Hawaii after 28 days with a full fuel tank.

My personal cut off would be if you think you will average less than 2000 miles a year, don't worry at all about fuel in a hull speed, displacement trawler. It will be an inconsequential cost compared to everything else.

One other factor that is not an issue where I live, but seems like a factor in some places, is that trawlers seem much more likely to have air conditioning in some parts of the world, while the sailors sweat it out. I would imagine the fuel cost for running a generator for the AC can add up, even though it is not for propulsion.

 

[DDW]

Steve Dashew has published his analysis of this, between his rather large sailing yachts and rather large power yachts.

There are capital costs and ongoing costs. I can give you some real figures. My 45' sailboat is on the 12th year and around 15000 miles and now needs a new sail. That will cost about $20K. A substantial fraction of those miles were motoring or motorsailing because a lot of the world is a windless place. Still, I only spent maybe $4K for the fuel used. If I'd done the same miles in my smaller 36' trawler, I'd have spent $15K in fuel. If it had been a larger trawler maybe $20K, but the accommodations of the two are not dissimilar. So trawler cheaper.

In capital costs, the rig on the sailboat was a bit over $100K. Not sure how much the QSB 5.9 in the trawler costs installed but probably substantially less than half of that. The Volvo auxiliary on the sailboat was about $9K wholesale cost, maybe another $5K to put it in. Again, trawler cheaper.

But, the sailboat can go anywhere in the world and the trawler is near coastal at most, and then only in nice weather. And the sailboat was custom built so more expensive than the production trawler.

 

[long-cours.62]

We doing that 28 year ago when we decide to built a new boat in alloy.
The former drawing of our "Long-Cours.62" was a motor sailor.
The motor sailor must be also fitted with 2 engine.


At this moment (in 1994) we made a list of equipment needed to be "sailor"

it start at the building stage : pilar for the mast, chaine plate, support for winch, rail, block etc + lead ballast.
Already for the initial part : more costly and heavier by (at less 8t )
After that we made a list of all equipment mast, winch, pole, furling system, sheet, sails...)
After we look at this amount of money and thinking : ok if we put this money in bank at x% per year what we got ?

50% of the annual interest was sufficient to cover our annual cost of diesel, the remain 50% we thinking let them growth up year after year for 10 year.
And this amount of interest after 10 year will be sufficient to make a very big "rebuilt" on the engine.
And even if it was not enough after 10 year on sailing boat you must buy new sails.
Finally the conclusion (in 1994 with level of 1994 interest ...) was : it is cheaper to have a passage-maker (like our with very small consumption ) than a motor sailor.
And we said to Joubert to change the hull line to suit only "motor".
We added a very small mast because we already have second hand rigging and sail it cost to us only the mast and boom (around 1000€) and our orange Lee Sail main sail who cost an another 1000€ (little less)
With her small jib by 15kts on the side we could move at ....3.5kts, with both jib and small main sail we could reach 5 kts... and continue to go somewhere in case of (big) engine problem.
Mâture - Trawler long-cours


We built only two boat from the hull line made by Joubert
one was 60' oa "motor-sailor" ketch ,twin engine, lifting keel , wheelhouse in steel made in Vietnam 30 years ago






The second 22 years ago must be also a motor sailor 64' oa but after check the cost of the "sail + etc" she became a passage-maker, if we want built both in same material in same place the motor sailor will cost lot of more than the "passage-maker". Even the maintenance will cost more.
And both are able to go were we can bring them, the only limit was the human side.

 

[mvweebles]

As DDW states, Dashew has the best analysis that more or less says its a wash over the long term.

https://setsail.com/operating-costs-sail-vs-power/

Another data point is this GB42 owner, a past sail circumnavigator and current full time cruiser in the Caribbean. Says the same thing. Scroll down to operating costs.

https://www.bumfuzzle.com/trawler-vs-sail/

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Relative to sail, power isn't necessarily expensive. It's wanting to go fast that drives the cost per mile traveled up rapidly.

 

[JLD]

I would offer that some of the rigging cost on a sailboat is also variable depending on the boat manufacturer. One example I can think of is chainplates (the plate used to secure the rigging to the hull). On many boats, like Pacific Seacraft's, the chainplates are mounted outside the hull for easy inspection and replacement. On a boat like an Island Packet, the chainplates are buried and fiberglassed onto the interior of the hull, making inspection much harder and replacement much more expensive.

Money wise, I guess it doesn't make as much of a difference in a large, expensive, newer sailboat, but it does with a smaller, cheaper, older sailboat.

Jim

 

[Mako]

We built only two boat from the hull line made by Joubert one was 60' oa "motor-sailor" ketch ,twin engine, lifting keel, wheelhouse in steel made in Vietnam 30 years ago

@LC, which shipyard did you use in Vietnam?

 

[Mako]

Interesting enough, Robert Beebe made a related comment in his original Voyaging Under Power book. He did not go into actual specifics, no dollars, but the point was made.

 

[Mako]

Peter, that was a very good article: https://www.bumfuzzle.com/trawler-vs-sail/.

Rare situation where the author has had experience in all 3 types of vessels.

 

[psneeld]

Rare but I didn't see mention of motorsailors which is an interesting twist.

 

[Sealife]

I believe it is inconsequential, as we spent more on insurance, booze, food, excursions etc. than fuel and maintenance. I think the operating cost are a smaller piece of the puzzle, unless maybe circumnavigating.

 

[Irish Rambler]

I confess to have a nice box of tools that can fix an engine, I don't have any to fix the wind.
Coming from a farm/motorised infantry military background and a working life in heavy transport I'm biased of course.
I took my skippers ticket cruising up the Western Isles of Scotland in a sailing boat.
However in order to have an open mind I've hired sailing boats for holidays around the Greek Isles and along the Turkish coast.
ksanders made valid points in his post with which I thoroughly concur.
The one thing nobody mentions is age.
Young to middle age we can skip around a sail boat swinging around ropes and booms with no bother at all and a good soaking when on the tiller is just part of the fun and your wife/girlfriend and kids are thrilled with the adventure.
Once you reach middle to mature age you begin to appreciate your comfort, certainly your wife appreciates hot & cold running water, electric toilets, washing machines, gas cookers, aircon and you both enjoy a comfy sprung bed with an electric blanket in the winter, not to mention living on an even keel and your not so nimble now moving around the deck without trip hazards at every step.
Frankly I don't mind paying for fuel as I cruise economically using the tides for a free ride and farm diesel, multi fuel of paraffin and soft veg oils(rapeseed/maize oil) when I can get them cheap.
We Irish will stand our round in the pub and happy to share a pint and a bit of 'Craic'. (I mean jokes, fun and laughter not the chemical kind). But we're as tight as the ducks proverbial when it comes to spending money on fuel.

 

[Mako]

The one thing nobody mentions is age...

Once you reach middle to mature age you begin to appreciate your comfort, certainly your wife appreciates hot & cold running water, electric toilets, washing machines, gas cookers, aircon and you both enjoy a comfy sprung bed with an electric blanket in the winter, not to mention living on an even keel and your not so nimble now moving around the deck without trip hazards at every step.

I like the Cruisersforum because those people have worldwide sailing experience in small boats, few of which on TF can match, even myself

However, I really like Trawlerforum for reasons like @IR's comments above, which reflect my personal life situation. The days when my wife and I would poop in a litterbox, go without refrigeration eating salted fish, and brag about how we live on 1 gallon of freshwater a day (with those associated smells) are long gone.

 

[Hippocampus]

Had conversation with a 64 fpb owner concerning this and also with several Nordhavn owners. The biggest break in comparison is dependent upon how the boat is used.
An ocean going passage making sailboat will see 8-10 times the wear in a single year than a coastal boat. Whereas the standing rig on a coastal boat (particularly if done in rod) may be safe for decades for the voyaging sailboat 8 years is the common limit. Whereas for the coastal boat you may choose to not replace things until failure or near failure for the voyaging boat you want a 2 times or better safety limit on loading. This is not only true for rig but also for all aspects of the boat. This includes sails. Passage making sailboats replace sails well before what a coastal boat would consider their service life. Not only for issues of wear but also shape. Current sails don’t stretch much but do creep. Losing a ten of a knot isn’t often meaningful to the coastal cruiser but is to the passage maker. A trip to the sailmaker is a minor hassle to the coastal sailor but unavailable on passage.

Power service life and maintenance intervals are less effected by mode of use. Other than the fact intermittent use may produce more wear than continuous use in some regards. However believe that has less impact for power than sail as long as frequent use of decent duration occurs.

At this point nearly all power and sail cruising boats have similar complexity. HVAC, generators, watermakers, electric heads, audiovisual, communications, navigation, refrigeration, thrusters, alternative energy systems are present on both. Both have propulsion engines (abet different in size). My prior sailboat had more complexity and creature comforts than my current NT which is well fitted out. No need for SSB, satellite coms for data and voice, multiple falls backs on every system (AP and wind vane and auxiliary rudder, multiple independent power sources and things like that) on a coastal boat.

For sail add in deck equipment, winches , running rigging, and the difficulty mounting and accessing equipment leading to additional costs.

So for coastal intermittent use would think power is more expensive than sail. But for cruising boats would think it’s a wash.

BTW being cold and wet on a cruising sailboat is a matter of choice. Many have inside helms. Even in its absence many have hard dodgers. Spent many a day standing or sitting under the hard dodger in freezing rain quite comfortably. Crack the companion way so the hydronic heat comes up you’re warm, dry and out of the wind. The repetitive comment sail is more uncomfortable tha power very often is not true. With powered winches and current furling gear neither is it necessarily more physical.

 

[BandB]

Rare but I didn't see mention of motorsailors which is an interesting twist.

But has the costs of both.

 

[BandB]

Relative to sail, power isn't necessarily expensive. It's wanting to go fast that drives the cost per mile traveled up rapidly.

But what about wanting to go fast on a sailboat, that drives up the cost there.

 

[mcarthur]

Modern tech also comes into play for motor sailing - we have been playing with the idea of a multi-section, temporary free standing mast. No chain plates. Two or three pieces like Harryproa and Rob Denney have done, so easier to store. Light and can be erected when needed. Doesn't cover the solar panels unless it's up. Etc.

 

[Hippocampus]

Interesting to consider the nordhavn motorsailor. Seems the generic concern that a motor sailor neither motors nor sails well may apply. Would be interested in McArthurs take on that old saw. Sail assist adds complexity, expense and more to fail. Sail dominated or true hybrid offers little advantage over ancillary sail to justify doing it.
Personally even kite sails scare me. Having houglassed spinnakers with a moment’s inattention wouldn’t want to deal with a kite on a typically short handed cruising boat mid ocean. Although we carried a ParaSailor it wasn’t used in blue water. Much preferred double headsails with furlers and poles and no main when on passage. Once you’re at or close to hull speed couldn’t see the reason to add on any additional risk. Not even a code with upside down furling.
Same with carbon fiber freestanding rigs. Remember Freedom Yachts . Hard to make anything weatherly with a big fat stick.
Did get beat by a nonsuch 36 in a Marion Bermuda. However entire race was a beam reach. For freestanding think Chris Whites design on his cats makes good sense for the cruiser. But with rotating masts it’s up and stays up.

 

[long-cours.62]

The shipyard

@LC, which shipyard did you use in Vietnam?

was in Haï Phong when we pass for the first time Vinashun bring us to 3 shipayard :
Tam Bac a very small one on the river "Song Cam",

Song Cam on the river ...yes Song Cam
Bach Dang a bigger one
Normally the building must start in Tam Bac but when we arrived in Vietnam 2 month later they change to Song Cam shipyard.


Now this shipyard was taken by...Damen and seem to not be longer interested to built small boat.

 

[Mako]

Yes you’re right. I visited Song Cam and they were quite arrogant about my little boat. Damen had no interest even in Qatar.

 

[long-cours.62]

For omeone

Yes you’re right. I visited Song Cam and they were quite arrogant about my little boat. Damen had no interest even in Qatar.

who could be interested, nostalgia session(because we was 32 years younger !
1 ouf at less the hull is moving after lot of delay
2 and the finishing will be done in the drydock under the supervision of the boss ( my wife in blue trousers)
3&4 start of inside job
5 baptism 22 May 1993 29 month after our arrival
6 August 1993 on the river heading to HK


When we started this project all people said : "you are crazy to do that in Vietnam" .
Yes we was crazy and we still be


note if the sail look like that it is because our sail are waiting us in ...HK ;-) we just put some very old sails on mast just in case...

 

[DDW]

Same with carbon fiber freestanding rigs. Remember Freedom Yachts . Hard to make anything weatherly with a big fat stick.

A little OT but:
Hard perhaps but quite possible. My boat is as weatherly as any similar sloop and from AWA 50 or so to DDW will handily beat them. Of course the freestanding rig makes the discussion about standing rigging replacement and failure moot. For a rig on a powerboat, I'd want it in a tabernacle so it could be lowered easily for air draft, that is possible free standing but more difficult to engineer.

 

[JWellington]

Taras, I accept those who hold that sailboating is not cheaper. Much of sailing is the romanticism of it. They cant just say anymore the simplistic, 'wind is free' argument.

 

[Hippocampus]

1. Can’t tune a freestanding rig. Without hydraulics under the mast working against standing rigging and hydraulic or mechanical tunable back stays shape of he mast is determined by its intrinsic rigidity and wind loading. Often would flatten and move draft forward on mainsail and jib using backstay(s). That not easily done on your rig.
2. Masts create turbulence and can impede laminar flow. Fatter the mast even if shaped more risk of turbulence. Yes this can be minimized and in fact free standing rigs can be more efficient than conventional. Obvious example is the hard sails of a America Cup racer or the like. The complexity of that rig boggles my mind. Not something I’d want to deal with on a cruising boat. Sure you can have a rotating freestanding mast shaped to be a more effective foil but you can’t get around that the cleaner edge of a jib makes it much easier to get and maintain laminar flow so will be more efficient for a given sail area. The. Chris White rig I mentioned has its drive from jibs in front of the rotating foil shaped masts.
3. Don’t know your boat and she looks a pretty thing. Do know on my prior boat and most current conventionally stayed cruising boats you’re not pinching until you’re at 30-32 degrees apparent. We commonly did hull speed at 30 awa. Would be interested in your polar. The split rig is also typically less efficient than sloop going to weather.
Now with advanced hull design on monos and multis everything is a beat as AWA moves forward with speed. And yes many are freestanding rigs. Although quite expensive and complex. We can discuss suitability for a mom and pop cruising boat or cost to achieve that level of performance.
End of day if goal is sail assist and optimization for maximal performance is not a goal having freestanding masts may make sense if you want to periodically lower the rig. A standing rigged boat may make better sense. As you have forestays/back stays to aid in the raising and lowering.

 

[DDW]

Well, I gather you aren't very experienced with free standing rigs since pretty much none of what you said is inherently true.

Mast bends quite well with hydraulic vangs, flattening the sail, but flattening the main is a sloop thing really. How to you flatten your jib? Knife edge jib is good under some conditions (mainly very light wind) and a don't care in most conditions. LE radius is expressed in % chord and is very small with carbon masts. We commonly go upwind at 29 - 30 AWA. On windward legs against sloops we give up nothing to them.

Sloop is a split rig (main and jib), sails interact in good and bad ways. The cat yawl is a split rig (main and mizzen), sails interact in good and bad ways - but not as much as a sloop. The most efficient sailing rigs are una rigs (both hard and soft), not sloops. The Chris White rig has a huge disadvantage in that the lift distribution on the hollow triangular planform is a disaster upwind, like sailing upwind with genoa only. (Have you seen his freestanding rig biplane cat by the way?) Freestanding rigs are not more expensive and complex than Marconi, rather they are simpler, cheaper, and (in carbon) lighter.

 

[Taras]

The comments on this post have really enlightened me. Thank you for chiming in with all your excellent thoughts. Here are my take aways thus far (keep the comments coming). Propulsion costs Trawler vs Sail pretty much comes down to:
1) Cruising worldwide or coastal?
2) Cost of fuel and size of tankage to take advantage of lower fuel cost locations
3) Amount of wind and wind angle often is not ideal for direction of travel when sailing
4) Sailboat is not a panacea
5) Comfort is key as you get older.
**A friend of mine once said "The difference between a sailboat and a powerboat is a sailboat only uses their engines 95% of the time"

 

[JWellington]

The comments on this post have really enlightened me. Thank you for chiming in with all your excellent thoughts. Here are my take aways thus far (keep the comments coming). Propulsion costs Trawler vs Sail pretty much comes down to:
1) Cruising worldwide or coastal?
2) Cost of fuel and size of tankage to take advantage of lower fuel cost locations
3) Amount of wind and wind angle often is not ideal for direction of travel when sailing
4) Sailboat is not a panacea
5) Comfort is key as you get older.
**A friend of mine once said "The difference between a sailboat and a powerboat is a sailboat only uses their engines 95% of the time"

Some sailors say that 95% on motor is a filthy lie, and the average is more like 85% only!!! And we even see now with modern solar hybrid systems, motor use goes way down. Sailing is more a hobby, or sport or romantic thing.

 

[JLD]

Some sailors say that 95% on motor is a filthy lie, and the average is more like 85% only!!! And we even see now with modern solar hybrid systems, motor use goes way down. Sailing is more a hobby, or sport or romantic thing.

It totally depends on the type of boat and how one uses their sailboat.

When we had our Hunter on Galveston Bay, the only motoring we did was to get out of the slip, to the channel, and then out into the Bay. Once in the Bay it was time to sail. We seldom used the motor while on the Bay and only when there was no wind. Usually filled up the diesel tank at the end of the season, with no other fill-ups during the year.

Jim