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Old 02-16-2022, 06:00 PM   #41
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I agree that the Standing Rigging probably shouldn't need to be replaced every 10 years. What is strange is that there are several Catamaran youtube channels that have stated that Insurance companies are now "requiring" this to bind coverage. Wondering if this is just for Cats or both Monohulls as well? The stresses on a Cat rig are much greater due to the rigidity of the structure and the fact that is no "heeling" as with a Monohull sailboat.
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Old 02-16-2022, 06:14 PM   #42
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Agree rod is much more durable than 1x19. Also agree with comment about insurance.

Commonly did passages short handed and even with four watch was one up. Found double headsails no main so much easier and lost nothing in speed. Boat was a Solent rig. Found with both sails on roller furling and with powered winches trimming, reefing or even going to one was easily done by one without waking anyone up. Only time two was necessary was setting up the cf poles. Other advantage was could just leave the pole(s) up when not in use. The parasailor came out for DDW in light air.
Prior was a big believer in codes and kites. But cruising want easy pleasy and safe. If wind builds quickly can just ease a sheet while pushing a button. Can’t beat it with a stick.
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Old 02-16-2022, 06:46 PM   #43
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On downwind passages a sloop is just not a very efficient rig, without flying colored sails. Even if there is enough wind not to, main chafes the rigging, jib won't settle and stay full, etc. With twin heads you don't have those problems, but they are only good deep and at least some effort to rig. This is where the unstayed una rig shines as it has none of those problems and is quite efficient.

I've not had insurance companies demand that standing rigging be replaced, but I have had them demand a survey of all standing rigging. For me this was cheap as I have none.
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Old 04-15-2022, 10:37 AM   #44
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Hello everyone,

these are certainly questions discussed over and over again, very exciting for anyone planning a liveaboard.

And as it has been correctly described in the previous posts, it is quite clear that all these questions are related to the budget, the use case and the demands of the users. As so often in life, there is not only black and white.

But, one important point has not been described yet. We live in a time of change, there are worldwide megatrends that cannot be stopped. One of them is the imperative energy transition from fossil energies to renewable energies. We definitely owe this to our children.

I believe that the rapid development in the electric-car industry together with the equally rapid development of new technologies for the harvesting and storage of regenerative energies, will reach the boat sector faster than we think. You can already buy for many years a catamaran that runs 25/7 at moderate speed with electric motors. This will be possible in a few years with the expected increase in efficiency of photovoltaic elements and electricity storage also for an efficient monohull.

Think of Tesla. They are there since 2008.

Old boats could be converted, and new builds will be only marginally more expensive with electric propulsion than boats powered by diesel engines.

It will be our turn (my wife and I) in a few years. For this purpose, we are planning a 20 meter new build. Monohull, slim, long, efficient, safe, comfortable and ocean-going for a life on board on long passages and at anchor. Whether we can still wait for the electric technology for 24/7 propulsion before building, I do not know yet. But a hybrid technology will be for sure. And then the question of economy motorboat vs sailboat will no longer arise for us. We have already chosen the countless advantages of motorboat design. It will be the question of full electric motorboat vs hybrid motorboat.

happy easter, Benjamin
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Old 04-16-2022, 12:55 PM   #45
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I follow your thought processes and felt I would like to add my tuppence worth.
The 'Green' approach is perfectly sensible if well thought out as opposed to Knee jerk reaction. The only two points I would make is that water and electric do not good bedfellows make and that diesel engines will still be around in 50 years, if you think 'out of the box' a diesel engine can run quite happily on other fuels providing you research it thoroughly first.
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Old 04-16-2022, 01:31 PM   #46
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If you want to see what near zero emission cruising looks like, check out Sailing Uma on YouTube. They have a sailboat with electric propulsion (and pretty minimal solar). They use the electric to get in and out of marinas. It works for them because they have lots and lots of time.

It takes a *lot* of solar to make enough electricity to cruise any sort of distance under power. That's a limitation of physics, not technology so unlikely to change soon. For most applications, sails will be more effective than solar as a zero-carbon primary propulsion energy source.
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Old 04-16-2022, 03:09 PM   #47
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We have done the numbers before but to do a real comparison it has to be like for like vessels

By that I mean, we currently enjoy full size everything onboard, run more 240v refrigeration than we did on land, gave a seperate laundry, 2 bathrooms, walk around king size bed and storage space and load carrying ability for pretty much anything within reason

To have that on a sailing vessel would require something in the 70ft plus range I would suggest.
Likely a million dollar beasty to start so already we are a lifetime of fuel and maintenance in front and we haven't even looked at rig and sail costs, let alone how a couple can realistically control them.

Of course if you are happy to accept less comfort , space and amenities things do get easier to compare financially, but even on a decent 45fter yacht I reckon the power, if chosen wisely will come out as a more affordable option - in fact I know it can.

We have bought, run and cruise full time on a 60fter cheaper than many of our friends do on 40 - 45 ft sail.
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Old 04-16-2022, 03:55 PM   #48
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Greetings,
Welcome aboard. Since you are planning a new build it MAY be possible to incorporate design features that can economically be changed over from a traditional fossil fuel power plant to a hybrid/all electrical drive system.



Start off your cruising with a diesel engine and as time and technology advance you can add or subtract power sources. Perhaps locate the engine in such a fashion so it doesn't have to be moved to add a generator or electric motor. Allow sufficient space in a location where you can add as many "batteries" as you wish without knocking out bulkheads or re-arranging ballasts. In other words, design your spaces that will allow changing systems without a major re-working of the boat's mechanical spaces. Install fuel tanks that are entirely accessible so they can easily be downsized, moved or removed.



I have no idea how to do this but a creative modular type design could minimize $$ to convert in the future.
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Old 04-16-2022, 04:16 PM   #49
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Greetings,
Welcome aboard. Since you are planning a new build it MAY be possible to incorporate design features that can economically be changed over from a traditional fossil fuel power plant to a hybrid/all electrical drive system.



Start off your cruising with a diesel engine and as time and technology advance you can add or subtract power sources. Perhaps locate the engine in such a fashion so it doesn't have to be moved to add a generator or electric motor. Allow sufficient space in a location where you can add as many "batteries" as you wish without knocking out bulkheads or re-arranging ballasts. In other words, design your spaces that will allow changing systems without a major re-working of the boat's mechanical spaces. Install fuel tanks that are entirely accessible so they can easily be downsized, moved or removed.



I have no idea how to do this but a creative modular type design could minimize $$ to convert in the future.
Well put RT!
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Old 04-16-2022, 05:12 PM   #50
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...The days when my wife and I would poop in a litterbox, go without refrigeration eating salted fish, and brag about how we live on 1 gallon of freshwater a day (with those associated smells) are long gone.
Now that's hilarious. And true. We still charter sailboats once a year so we can be one with nature in those (relatively few) transcendent moments, but I sure enjoy sitting at the dining table under the aft deck roof with a hot cup of coffee on a rainy morning. But the old sail/power debate aside, I'm still always shocked at the cost of new sails. $20K? Sheesh, I could replace both my Marine Power (GM) 454's for that price. Well, okay, probably not including installation, but close.
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Old 04-16-2022, 05:16 PM   #51
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With your stated goals I'd go electric propulsion straight away with a generator as the primary power source. Then have the generator/tankage removeable as solar or batteries get better.

The Herley 3400 is a great example of the technology as it stands today. Doesn't claim to be an ocean crosser but 2500nm at 8kn in a 34' boat is impressive.

https://boatingnz.co.nz/boat-reviews...wer-catamaran/
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Old 04-16-2022, 07:45 PM   #52
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Thanks Darkside.

Darn good beginner into the "electric motor" boat-future that will eventually take over. https://boatingnz.co.nz/boat-reviews...wer-catamaran/

Wonder how well [easily accessible, affordable] similar drive trains will become available as retrofit into boats such as mine... that will last for many years??

More I think about it...

Retro fit to electric propulsion should be relatively easy. Remove the fossil fuel engines and their transmissions [opens oodles of space]. Install one or two electric motors, big sets of new-age batts, a good gen set and solar panels. That's the answer - what's the question?? Oh yeah... then there's the co$t! May take a while before price$ come$ into line via ma$$ competition.
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Old 04-16-2022, 07:55 PM   #53
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Hot water on a diesel-powered boat costs no more than the water because it can be heated from "waste" energy coming from the engine.
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Old 04-16-2022, 08:07 PM   #54
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Hot water on a diesel-powered boat costs no more than the water because it can be heated from "waste" energy coming from the engine.
Only if you've moved the boat recently enough. If you've stayed in 1 place for long enough without shore power you're going to want another option for making hot water.
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Old 04-16-2022, 08:35 PM   #55
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With your stated goals I'd go electric propulsion straight away with a generator as the primary power source. Then have the generator/tankage removeable as solar or batteries get better.

The Herley 3400 is a great example of the technology as it stands today. Doesn't claim to be an ocean crosser but 2500nm at 8kn in a 34' boat is impressive.

https://boatingnz.co.nz/boat-reviews...wer-catamaran/
Thanks for posting this - very interesting.

I do wonder what the net efficiency comparison would be between the spec'ed series hybrid (2x100kw electric + 120kW diesel genset) and, say, 2x80kW diesel direct drive. Or 2 equivalent Beta (parallel) hybrids.

Direct drive (parallel hybrid) is hard to beat on a passage when you're just putting away for hours and hours, sending that rotational energy straight through a prop shaft versus converting to electricity then back to rotational energy via electric motor. I'd estimate at least a 10% loss, but perhaps some of that could be made up by running the 120kW genset at its most efficient spot. You can do some interesting stuff with intake and exhaust tuning if you only run at one specific RPM. But it'd be great to see an actual detailed engineering comparison.

The claimed 0.5lph at 9kts is very good - a bit hard to believe to be honest.

Edit: just watched the video. A diesel stove?!? On this boat? Really?

Also, most of the flex solar panels are permanently shaded by the grab rail on the cabin top, and the radome will shade out several of the others at almost all times. This is not good design - they will have very poor output. It would be much better to put a smaller number of solid panels parallel to the grab rails.
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Old 04-16-2022, 10:05 PM   #56
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Hot water on a diesel-powered boat costs no more than the water because it can be heated from "waste" energy coming from the engine.
The engine on the Herley is water cooled as you can see in the picture. Probably only 50C or so but still plenty for a shower. Also the primary energy is from the generator which is water cooled like most other diesels.

For the handrails on the roof my understanding is that modern solar panels cope way better with partial shading than those of the past.
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Old 04-17-2022, 10:02 AM   #57
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Our boat (gasser 454's) is also plumbed to heat the house water through an exchanger from the starboard engine. That's not uncommon. We have a very good, relatively new hot water heater but I'm still surprised by how fast it heats up and how long the water stays hot, even hours after shutting down the engine. (This discussion is making me think about a solar array on the 9,000 square feet of bimini and aft roof again though. Well, about 300 square feet actually, but of course it won't go edge to edge, so let's say 200 sq ft * 15 watts per sq ft average (probably less here but let's say) = 3,000 watts? Wow, more than I thought.)
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Old 04-17-2022, 11:31 AM   #58
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I know this probably won't be a popular comment but these days there appears to be some reasons to consider the lessening of fossil fuel consumption. That being said my "trawler" uses about 1/3 of gallon per hour, my sailboat uses about 1/2 a gallon an hour when the engine is running.
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Old 04-17-2022, 02:16 PM   #59
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I know this probably won't be a popular comment but these days there appears to be some reasons to consider the lessening of fossil fuel consumption. That being said my "trawler" uses about 1/3 of gallon per hour, my sailboat uses about 1/2 a gallon an hour when the engine is running.
A half gallon an hour is pretty typical for a medium size sailboat, say 30-40 ft.
A third of a gallon an hour is atypical for even a modest sized trawler, though.
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Old 04-17-2022, 02:40 PM   #60
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I know this probably won't be a popular comment but these days there appears to be some reasons to consider the lessening of fossil fuel consumption. That being said my "trawler" uses about 1/3 of gallon per hour, my sailboat uses about 1/2 a gallon an hour when the engine is running.
Yeah but how much boat have you got in the sailboat vs trawler?
Is it a like for like comparison?
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