Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-16-2020, 02:02 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
City: California
Country: USA
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 74
Power Cats vs Trawlers for Passage Making

How would you compare the blue water capabilities and suitability of a trawler vs a power cat of similar living space?
__________________
Advertisement

Open-d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 02:14 PM   #2
Guru
 
DavidM's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct/Punta Gorda, Fl
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Atlas Pompano 23
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 5,179
Well, I know that you cannot get a CE rating on a sailing catamaran less than 40' long. Don't know if that holds for power cats. So there is one (or maybe less) point in favor of monohulls.

A second point is that we (or at least some of us) understand the characteristics of mono hull blue water trawlers: ballasted so the point of vanishing stability is 90 degrees or more, downfload prevention, heavy scantlings particularly windows that can stand up to a wall of blue water over the bow, simple robust sytems with redundancy for critical items.

I don't have the same understanding with catamaran power trawlers. Beebe never wrote about them. My gut is that they have never made serious blue water passages, but I am sure the group will correct me.

What is a serious blue water passage. In my mind it is anything longer than reasonable weather forecasts can cover, 5+ days.

David
__________________

DavidM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 02:52 PM   #3
Veteran Member
 
City: California
Country: USA
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidM View Post
Well, I know that you cannot get a CE rating on a sailing catamaran less than 40' long. Don't know if that holds for power cats. So there is one (or maybe less) point in favor of monohulls.

A second point is that we (or at least some of us) understand the characteristics of mono hull blue water trawlers: ballasted so the point of vanishing stability is 90 degrees or more, downfload prevention, heavy scantlings particularly windows that can stand up to a wall of blue water over the bow, simple robust sytems with redundancy for critical items.

I don't have the same understanding with catamaran power trawlers. Beebe never wrote about them. My gut is that they have never made serious blue water passages, but I am sure the group will correct me.

What is a serious blue water passage. In my mind it is anything longer than reasonable weather forecasts can cover, 5+ days.

David
Thanks.
Open-d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 02:54 PM   #4
Guru
 
oscar's Avatar
 
City: Bethlehem, PA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Lady Kay V
Vessel Model: Don't know yet.....
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 679
They are very, very stable, up to a point. After that you need to find the escape hatch in the bottom and you'll be sitting on it until the orange chopper arrives which may take a while at 30W.

As far as build quality, just like mono hulls some are better built than others. Some sail cats have traversed the oceans for years.

Like David said, to be suitable it would end up being a pretty good size and I suspect more expensive than a comparable monohull.
__________________
22' Starcraft resto mod project: https://ladykay.blog/ Avatar is my first boat....Holland, 1965 ish.....
oscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 02:57 PM   #5
Veteran Member
 
City: California
Country: USA
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 74
Thanks
Open-d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 03:40 PM   #6
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 18,224
Perhaps a power catamaran could be designed for passage making, just to this point, I'm not aware of any being so. We are seeing some builders moving up to larger power catamarans, in the 70'+ range, but they're still not designed for those purposes. I don't see it happening anytime soon as the effort required for the potential payback just does make it viable.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 03:48 PM   #7
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,589
I'd talk to this guy. Interesting fellow and very cool boat; we were rafted to them at Vero Beach moorings (not the one that broke in my other post), and once again here in NC when they were anchored off the channel in Beaufort.

https://bigdumboat.com/faq.html
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 04:14 PM   #8
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 658
I have about 800 nms on a friends 2014 Horizon Power Cat 52, over half of which in the Gulf off Florida's West Coast between Cedar Key and Dry Tortugas. We've avoided seas more than about 3-4 feet or so. The ride is fine, a bit jerky for my tastes. My friend tells me he avoids beam-seas like the plague, but it could be that it's a super nice boat and not everything is nailed down. Boat carried 700g of diesel, and burns about 35gph at 18-kts; or under 7 gph at 9-kts. Small rudders mean she'd really rather be going fast, and she handles chop pretty well at 18-kts, though a seriously wet ride (as you'd expect). I really like sedan layouts where the main living space flows into the aft deck - a powercat is superb for that. An extremely nice layout for warm weather cruising.

Malcolm Tennant (sp?), either NZ or OZ, apparently designed the penultimate bluewater power cats. If you're interested, you may want to take a look. One of his designs - Domino - is for sale (YW link below). Frankly, I think cats make more sense at 60-feet and over. Don't know why I say that, but the lines seem to blend nicely, and I suppose the bridge deck gets higher.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...no-20-3495698/
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 04:17 PM   #9
Member
 
City: Houston, TX
Country: Houston, TX
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 6
Malcolm Tennant for one designed quite a few passage maker power cats, look up Domino. Most of the ones designed for ocean crossing have been designed outside the US though.
JCM-Houston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 04:25 PM   #10
Guru
 
oscar's Avatar
 
City: Bethlehem, PA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Lady Kay V
Vessel Model: Don't know yet.....
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 679
Notice the shape of the underside of the (relatively narrow) bridge deck. Designed to break up the water under it and avoid the slamming cats are known for under the right (wrong) conditions.
__________________
22' Starcraft resto mod project: https://ladykay.blog/ Avatar is my first boat....Holland, 1965 ish.....
oscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 04:26 PM   #11
Guru
 
oscar's Avatar
 
City: Bethlehem, PA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Lady Kay V
Vessel Model: Don't know yet.....
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 679
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
We've avoided seas more than about 3-4 feet or so.
That's fair weather. We've all seen more on the Chesapeake, Long Island Sound or Great Lakes....
__________________
22' Starcraft resto mod project: https://ladykay.blog/ Avatar is my first boat....Holland, 1965 ish.....
oscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 04:43 PM   #12
Veteran Member
 
City: California
Country: USA
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 74
As i have determined, the sail driven versions are, in many cases, making ocean transits. It seems that a similar, near-identical vessel with slightly larger engins, inboard instead of sail drive would be as, and probably more capable. Any thoughts on this?
Open-d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 04:43 PM   #13
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Name: Floatsome & Jetsome
Vessel Model: Meridian 411
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,548
I love that Domino boat....man if I were at my retirement boat phase(I am close), I would be all over that boat. That makes so much sense as it relates to speed and efficiency. I was on a blog with the owners of that thing and that boat can make serious passage at alarming speeds with alarming range at those speeds. In the cover page of that listing they talked about "ditching hurricanes". That boat is fast enough to do exactly that. Amazing watercraft!!!
__________________
Prairie 29...Perkins 4236...Sold
Mainship Pilot 30...Yanmar 4LHA-STP...Sold
Carver 356...T-Cummins 330B...Sold
Meridian 411...T-Cummins 450C
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 04:44 PM   #14
Veteran Member
 
City: California
Country: USA
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
I have about 800 nms on a friends 2014 Horizon Power Cat 52, over half of which in the Gulf off Florida's West Coast between Cedar Key and Dry Tortugas. We've avoided seas more than about 3-4 feet or so. The ride is fine, a bit jerky for my tastes. My friend tells me he avoids beam-seas like the plague, but it could be that it's a super nice boat and not everything is nailed down. Boat carried 700g of diesel, and burns about 35gph at 18-kts; or under 7 gph at 9-kts. Small rudders mean she'd really rather be going fast, and she handles chop pretty well at 18-kts, though a seriously wet ride (as you'd expect). I really like sedan layouts where the main living space flows into the aft deck - a powercat is superb for that. An extremely nice layout for warm weather cruising.

Malcolm Tennant (sp?), either NZ or OZ, apparently designed the penultimate bluewater power cats. If you're interested, you may want to take a look. One of his designs - Domino - is for sale (YW link below). Frankly, I think cats make more sense at 60-feet and over. Don't know why I say that, but the lines seem to blend nicely, and I suppose the bridge deck gets higher.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...no-20-3495698/
There you go!!
Open-d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 04:51 PM   #15
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Name: Floatsome & Jetsome
Vessel Model: Meridian 411
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,548
That Domino boat has 2000nm range at 20 knots....4000 at 10....obviously likely much farther going even slower. There is no "hump" as it relates to going those speeds. IOW, the performance curve is linear through the speed ranges...so you could likely expect 3000 miles at 15 knots. My only knock on the boat is it has only one head...
__________________
Prairie 29...Perkins 4236...Sold
Mainship Pilot 30...Yanmar 4LHA-STP...Sold
Carver 356...T-Cummins 330B...Sold
Meridian 411...T-Cummins 450C
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 05:30 PM   #16
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baker View Post
That Domino boat has 2000nm range at 20 knots....4000 at 10....obviously likely much farther going even slower. There is no "hump" as it relates to going those speeds. IOW, the performance curve is linear through the speed ranges...so you could likely expect 3000 miles at 15 knots. My only knock on the boat is it has only one head...
Domino has been for sale for a long time. I'm guessing the single head has a lot to do with it. 60-foot cat with one head? Adding a head might be the only time a remodel of a boat might make a profit.
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 06:07 PM   #17
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,589
I haven't been on a catamaran under about 80 feet that I personally found suitable as a full time liveaboard. Not that by any means I've seen all of them. Ann hasn't ever seen one suitable of any length from her point of view, which means ultimately, that's my point of view too. And we liked Dyad and another friend's Crowther overall.

There's a lot to like about cats, but for us, making one a home isn't one of them.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 06:39 PM   #18
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Country: Australia
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by oscar View Post
Notice the shape of the underside of the (relatively narrow) bridge deck. Designed to break up the water under it and avoid the slamming cats are known for under the right (wrong) conditions.

Slamming is not an issue on cats with decent bridge deck clearance.
Some designers and owners will argue that if the "wave cracker" was not there then there would be nothing to slap.
Simi 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 08:23 PM   #19
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,079
One downside of cats is illustrated by Domino: engine access is poor. Down in a narrow and deep hull. Same is usually true of sail cats.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 09:27 PM   #20
Guru
 
hollywood8118's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend Washington
Country: USA
Vessel Name: " OTTER "
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander Europa 40
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,815
The irony is almost everybody that has a strong negative opinion about cats have not spent much time on them.. especially offshore. They live really well.. if designed and sailed correctly are very safe and speedy. Engine access is usually better that most twin trawlers.. and they don't need to be stabilized.. either underway or on the hook.
Most of the bad was designed out of cats 20+ years ago

HOLLYWOOD
__________________

hollywood8118 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×