Perkins 6.354

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Seachaser said:
UPDATE w/ Perkins 6.354 manifold (nat)
Now, yes, there is another one in Alabama, but they're also around $2800.00. It's just a darn manifold!!!!
But its come to my attention that there may be a third option that will help me get this boat out from port. Apparently perkins blocks are ford blocks and the ford Lehman manifold will in fact mate. Now granted, there will need to be a couple modifications, but it's my understanding, from others that have contended with the same issue and stated that they've had it done before, that the Lehman parts are readily available and will work. Has anyone else ventured into this same idea?
Thanks guys.
Click to expand...


My friend, why are you torturing yourself?

Perkins 6.354 blocks are not ford blocks (.) A Lehman manifold will not work (.)

I warned you about the turbo manifold -- and I'm now warning you about a ford manifold. Danger! Danger! Will Robinson!

Get a manifold made for the engine. To get something else and make it work will take very skilled welding, grinding, and/or machining and a lot of time. It could possibly be easier to make it from scratch.

There isn't an issue here to contend with. There are two different suppliers of new parts custom made for the engine that will simply bolt on. I strongly recommend that you just procure and install one of them now -- because you will eventually (or find a used one).

The stainless steel manifold is $2800 because it is high grade stainless steel and will resist corrosion, ensuring a long service life, and protect your engine from the really bad things that can /sometimes/ happen when a water-cooled manifold fails. It'll last longer than a carbon steel manifold, so it should be the last one you ever need to buy.

A $2800 major engine part that is expected to last 20+ years isn't over priced. If it was carbon steel and expected to be a 5 year scheduled replacement part, i'd feel different. But, basically, it is the major component of a once per generation exhaust overhaul.
 
David Kimmel said:
What parts are included in the "kit" from TAD? I may be faced with the same situation and want to start to try procuring parts now.
Click to expand...

Attached is the picture TAD sent me showing the parts in the kit. My boat has this kit, but it was installed shortly before my time.
 

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Yes, I understand and really appreciate the reply. TAD is apparently a Bowman design and may also contain the elbow, but I'm not entirely certain. At the end of the day I suppose its all about supply and demand, and the demand is apparently high, subsequently so is the price.
 
I really appreciate your reply and can't help but be entertained by your first few sentences-- so very true. Either way, I very well may be forced to fork over a few grand for the manifold.
As pertaining to the Lehman modification that I threw into the thread, the option was presented by a marine fabricator I was speaking with and he stated that he's run into this very problem more than a few times w/ Perkins parts.
I suppose its worth an exploratory, but at the end of the day chances are I'll just go with the MESA design.

I'll keep everyone posted.
 
$2800 for a SS specialty manifold is not outrageous. Sure big bucks Seachaser but properly taking care of an old engine is just the joy and cost of boating. Gkesden really knows his Perkins stuff so taking his advice is a good idea.
 
BTW, why does it read "Veteran Member" beneath my name? I'm not a veteran member. I don't feel like a veteran member. Hell, I barely know what in the hell I'm doing. ;)
 
Seachaser,

I wouldn't worry about it. Many of us get a bit of social promotion around here. I sure as heck ain't a guru! :)
 
Seachaser said:
UPDATE w/ Perkins 6.354 manifold (nat)
I wish I had better news, but unfortunately I'm back to square one with the realization that locating a magical unicorn is perhaps a bit easier than a reasonably priced manifold...
As of late I've yet to find a standard natural manifold so I took the gamble with the turbo design. Yeah, we all know the one..... At first glance
The left side was exact, center contained 3 bolt holes (I only required 2), but that wasn't an issue, and the right side had two diagonal bolt holes, but they're reversed. Dead in the water...
Click to expand...
Nothing a man with a welder and a good drill press can`t resolve? I thought not... but....
 
I have a different 6.354 than yours but here's what I paid $4000 for from TAD. Sheri gave me everything needed right down to each bolt, nut, washer & gasket. Did it sting? Yep. I lamented over putting that kind of $$ into a 40 year old engine. But you know what? The old stuff lasted 40 years so I figured $4000 divided by 40 years is $100 a year which isn't bad plus it was way cheaper & easier than re-powering.
 

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Hi BruceK,

There are more differences than just the mounting holes/bolt-pattern. But, without having the two parts right in front of me, I just don't remember the extent of the differences.

Welders, fabricators, and machinists can do amazing things. No doubt skilled folks could turn a turbo manifold, a lehman manifold, a block of steel, or a steel plate into the needed part. I just think it is likely to be 2-3 day effort or about $1600-2400 to do custom fab one, plus materials. So, maybe that is a $2000-$2800 endeavor, rough numbers, all in.

Maybe the Perkins turbo can be adapted for less, $800 for the part and $1000-$1400 in labor.

...I'm just //totally// guessing as to the price and time. A machinist/fabricator/welder, I am not.

I just don't see the savings to be worth the lost time and risk of custom.

And, I'd really, really hate for the OP to lose any more money on this endeavor. It is an expensive enough thing, as is.
 
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I don't mean to be rude or abrupt, why all the mental masturbation ?
If you want Perkins OE parts write down the engine number and contact the OE manufacturers at www.parts4engines.com if you need marinizing parts go to the OE supplier to Perkins at www.ejbowman.co.uk both company's ship around the world.
No the Perkins and Ford are NOT the same block, if anything fits its an fortunous accident.
Do it once, do it right ! Its cheaper in the long run.
Would you buy an engine from bits cobbled together ? Thought not.
 
Just a note...

Parts4Engines.com is just a major 3rd party supplier in Britian. They are basically like TAD Diesel or S & W in the states, but have an e-commerce store vs an old school counter and phone. I have used them. Surprisingly inexpensive and fast shipping to the states!

I dont know who made the original manifolds for Perkins. It may have been Perkins. It may have been Bowman. But, at least these days, Bowman is more known for multicoolers and other more sophisticated things than simple manifolds. They don't, at least today, sell a simple manifold for the engine in question.
 
Rochpoint,
At first glance the Mrcool manifold looks like it can be modified to work, however the one no-go variant is the bolt holes on the right side-- the diagonal is reversed. Clever girl. LOL. Entertaining now, but not so much at the time of discovery.
At least this clears up some of the confusion. A few said it would (or should) fit, whereas many of the suppliers (those answering the phone(s)) found the question obtuse and couldn't explain why. Nevertheless and within this maelstrom of insanity there's a couple that have been down this road and know what they're talking about and IMO shouldn't be referred to as Gurus, but absolute Jedi's. ;) So, at the end of the day there's a couple options 1: Locate a good used one that can be washed down in muriatic acid (Refer the the "Magical Unicorn" comment) or 2: pay $$$ for the S.S. version.
Without question this boat is a beautiful rarity (Charley Morgan West Indian 36'), but At the end of the day, I'm simply looking to get this vessel from one port to the next (130 mi journey) and not really interested in doing much beyond that. A one-trick pony.
 
I'm a little handicapped here because I just don't have the two parts next to me and it has been too long since I've really thought in detail about this part of the system, but...

I do not believe the only difference is the bolt pattern. It is entirely possible that the only reason the bolt pattern is different -- is to prevent someone from goofing things up by interchanging the otherwise incompatible manifolds.

Remember that turbo chargers are basically exhaust driven compressors that force air into the engine's intake, packing the oxygen more tightly than in unpressurized air, giving the engine more oxygen by volume in each breadth, so that more fuel can be burned, and more work can be done by the engine in the same time, e.g. more horsepower.

Note the bit about "exhaust driven". The exhaust that drives the turbo comes from the -- exhaust manifold. It literally flows out of the manifold into the turbo and spins a turbine to drive a compressor.

The fact that the turbo version of the engine has a turbo that needs to draw gas from the exhaust manifold is not likely unrelated to the fact that the turbo version needs a different manifold than the naturally aspirated engine for which exhaust gas is simply exhausted from the manifold.

In the Perkins 6.354, the turbo mounts directly onto the exhaust manifold, usually via an adapter plate. The NA and turbo manifolds are going to differ, at least, in the existence of this mounting port and the conventional exhaust port. And, I suspect, they'll differ more subtly in other ways w.r.t. the shape and angles, flow of air, etc. I just don't know.

If I thought the only difference was the bolt pattern and shape of that one piece, I'd suggest you take it to a machine shop along side the old one and let them fix it. But, I /know/ that isn't the case.

If I thought the only other difference was the existence of the turbo port, I'd suggest you take it to a machine shop along side the old one and let them fix it. But, I /know/ that isn't the case.

It is possible that the only differences are the two above and the existence of the conventional exhaust port on the manifold. And, if that is the case, a machine shop could possibly fix the mounting issue, close the turbo port, and add the conventional port. But, I don't know how much that would cost.

But, I suspect (but don't know without looking) that, as a result of mounting geometry (and perhaps for other reasons, too), the shape of the two manifolds differ in other ways. At a certain point, welding one from plate steel becomes easier or machining one from a block becomes easier. I just don't know.

There could also be other system-wide differences. I seem to remember that the spec for the turbo exhaust is for a larger pipe than for a NA exhaust, etc.

How bad is the original manifold? My first choice is never fixing such things. But, if your goal is really just a short-term fix, it might be possible to have it fixed. Cracks can be welded (or sometimes even JB Welded). Rotted interface surfaces can be welded or brazed and machined. The whole thing can even be blasted, solvent washed, repaired, brazed, and machined as needed. It is really hard to fix internal corrosion. But, if there is an external crack or a problem where it can be seen, a machine shop or welder may be able to offer guarantee-free help.
 
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Whether you are keeping or selling the vessel, fixing it correctly with the right parts is the preferred path. As oft mentioned in this thread the best economic solution is to replace the manifold correctly prior to more serious and inevitable events. Sure you can wait to do it right but moving the limping vessel over distance is a risk only you can determine.
 
I replaced my genuine holset turbo with a $200 chinese turbo on my 160hp Perkins. No issues at all.

It's supposedly an "upgrade" H1C but without more fuel a diesel wont make more power. I had to change a couple fittings but otherwise a direct swap.
 
Massey Ferguson tractor clones are very common in china and many use Perkins or Perkins-clone engines. And, many different types of engines use the same turbo as the 6.354. It isn't a 6.354 specific part.

The upshot is that there are a lot of lower cost versions of the turbo available in china, many seem to be good.

When I replaced mine a few years ago, the US/European manufacturer was between runs and the supply, both new and rebuilt, was approximately 0. I almost bought one of from China, myself. My mechanic felt uncomfortable with it and managed to find me a new old stock US-made one on a shelf somewhere. [Note: Since that time, Holset has done another run of the turbos and they are back in supply. At the time, the backorder was 3 months.]

But, in any case, I'll lend a voice to say that you are speaking the truth w.r.t. the availability of those turbos from china at a lower cost. I found some on Alibaba and AliExpress that seemed credible and cost less than a rebuild kit when I went looking.
 

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Turbo and natural engines usually have different compression ratios with the turbo engine having the lower ratio. In diesels the compression ratio is usually determined by the piston not the head like in gas engines. I don't know the details of your engine well but the heads could be the same. I would check the valve to piston clearance before cranking.
 
Great. Unfortunately I don’t know much about this engine. The picture was sent to me today. I was told that it was running last year, but hasn’t been run since. Either way, the boat is being salvaged and the engine is mine to have if interested. Any thoughts on this design?
 
Do you have the serial/build numbers from the two engines? And/or the part numbers from the two head castings?

As far as I know -- which might not be very much -- the turbo and non-turbo engines used the same basic block and head for much of the engines production life, until the 6.3544 series.

Having said that, I have no reason to believe, or not believe, that the head from one 6.354 will fit onto another 6.354. I just don't know if there were small differences in the machining from one model to another. In fact, I would be shocked if there weren't such differences on a motor that was in production for almost 30 years.

They might be show-stoppers or they might be things that a machine shop could just adjust, or maybe nothing that affects compatibility, or maybe nothing at all.

I can imagine minor differences such as in the head bolts, etc, would have changed over the years and models as the engine power and compression ratio and need to cool the cylinders varied and failure modes were better understood.

With the part number from the two head castings, one can cross-reference them and see if they are interchangeable, e.g. obsoleted by the same newer part number.

Or, one can take the two engine builds, find the head part numbers, and cross-reference them to see if they match.

May I inquire, what is the goal here? Heads can be rebuilt. It usually isn't show-stopping expensive, especially if you pull them, take them to the shop yourself, and then reinstall yourself. That can cut the cost in half or more.
 
Hey Seachaser,

What is the goal w.r.t. the engine?

Not sure what you are asking about the design. It looks like a T6.354M. But, I am having a hard time seeing the detail in some of the pictures to know for sure.
 
I was just going to have a few things built (Manifold and mixing elbow) on one engine (6.354 natural), but a friend called me today and said he had this whole engine and if interested I could have it. I’m just looking for a one-trick pony here in order to get boat moved and I was wondering if this would even work? It’s difficult to remove motor intact, subsequently it’d need to be taken apart. Btw, I don’t have the numbers on this engine- I haven’t had eyes on it, only image.
 
Seachaser,

It is perfectly possible to take it apart. It isn't a complex deal to pull the transmission, starter, alternator, injector pump, manifold, head, turbo, exhaust, raw water pump, coolant pump, cooling loop, coolers, oil loop, header tank, lifter pump, senders and safety switches, control cables, belt, etc. Just time.

From there, installation and reassembly is the reverse. Just use new gaskets and clamps, inspect everything, etc. Just more time.

But...if you have a twin engine the two engines will perform differently, so the controls will feel different. You can probably adjust most of that out of the controls -- but not all of it. But, the tachs, etc, will be different. Etc.

Also....honestly....you don't even know that that engine runs. And, if it does, for how long. I'd want to cut the boat out from around it, take it to a shop whole, and test it. If it tested okay, then I'd clean it up, disassemble it as much as necessary for the install, and go from there.

Even doing it yourself -- there are still likely a couple of boatyards and crane's involved, etc.

If your only goal is to get from Point-A to Point-B, and they aren't too far apart, art a certain point, a tow may be the less expensive and most expeditious option.

Repowering a boat, even keeping the engine type, isn't necessarily complex -- but it is a big deal in the sense of the time and physical lifting it takes. Personally, there is no way I'd look to replace a running motor with a bad manifold by repowering with another motor in unknown condition.

The cost of the manifold and elbow is likely less than having the boatyard pull and drop the engine. Never mind the time. Remember, that engine weighs 1300 lbs. Only 200-300lbs of that is in the head, I'd guess.
 
Completely get it. Unfortunately I’m not down there right now and like most, it may be a while. Ugh!
 
Perkins Manicooler

Anyone still looking for a Mannicooler? After searching high and low for a 16 bolt manifold, I came across a new heat exchanger and two mini coolers in perfect condition. Obviously these are for the range 4. I know these have been virtually impossible to locate, so I thought I’d put it out there for you guys.
 
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