Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-11-2018, 10:34 AM   #1
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,050
Penn State LEO Boarding Case

I know we have talked about this in another thread. Saw this article from Soundings.

I wish this guy luck. About time the ACLU represents a good case!

https://www.soundingsonline.com/vide...nless-searches
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 10:47 AM   #2
Guru
 
Airstream345's Avatar
 
City: Friday Harbor, WA USA
Vessel Name: FORTITUDE
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 54-8
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,015
Read this one this morning as well. Have to agree, boarding without cause is like the police or fire department entering your home on demand, for no reason to check your gas lines, fire extinguishers and ensure you've changed your CO detector batteries.

That said, I'm also surprised the average state registration process doesn't require a vessel equipment/safety inspection.
Airstream345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 12:14 PM   #3
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
The article was quoted mentioning the number of state laws that allow safety inspections without cause. Anyone know where a list of those state could be found?
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 12:16 PM   #4
Guru
 
Benthic2's Avatar
 
City: Boston Area
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,610
Perhaps that will be the resolution to this issue. Here in MA we have to have our car inspected every year for safety and emissions compliance at cost of $30( i think ). If boats are required to get a sticker, it would ensure equipment was on the boat, and provide the revenue that the state wants. Boaters will resent the fee, and police will resent having their authority checked...sometimes "lose-lose" is the best solution for both sides.
Benthic2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 12:30 PM   #5
GFC
Guru
 
City: Tri Cities, WA
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airstream345 View Post
That said, I'm also surprised the average state registration process doesn't require a vessel equipment/safety inspection.
S-H-H-H-H-H-H-H. If you speak too loudly about that Governor Tax-and-Spend will hear you and implement that program, and naturally would charge a healthy fee for it.
__________________
Mike and Tina
1981 Boston Whaler 13'
GFC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 12:32 PM   #6
Guru
 
CaptTom's Avatar
 
City: Southern Maine
Vessel Model: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,717
A few things. We're talking state, not federal, laws here. I think it'll be a long time before you see the feds reverse their right to board and inspect.

And what was that crap about the LEO's not accepting a type 2 PFD? It's hard to believe they're that poorly trained. If true, that would be the easier case to fight. What was the motivation to go after the legality of the boarding? There may be more to the story.
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 12:44 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
City: Rapid City, SD heading back to the PNW
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 212
I must agree that not excepting a legal Type 2 PDF was the fault LEO. I think that there must be more to this story... Why did his friends refuse to go boating with him again?
mramoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 01:01 PM   #8
Guru
 
Benthic2's Avatar
 
City: Boston Area
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,610
I think he chose to fight the boarding rather than the PFD because that's the bigger constitutional issue. Whether the LEO or the Boater was mistaken, whether the PFD was acceptible is an easily determined case and of minor importance. Whether the state needs to change its boarding process is a very big deal.

I'm not too familiar with inflatables, but don't they have to actually be worn, where as a traditional PFD can just be "easily accessible" ?

Also, the article mentions the packaging for the life jacket. If it was still in the package, it would be considered "not wearable". However, the boater said he had more life jackets, so even if that one was not legitimate, why not pull out another one ?
Benthic2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 02:52 PM   #9
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
I agree on more to the story. Find it interesting that the guy isn't fighting the legitimacy of the charge but wants to fight the right to search. That's typically the approach when one is guilty of the charge itself. I have no sympathy at all with the guy.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 03:44 PM   #10
Guru
 
Airstream345's Avatar
 
City: Friday Harbor, WA USA
Vessel Name: FORTITUDE
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 54-8
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by GFC View Post
S-H-H-H-H-H-H-H. If you speak too loudly about that Governor Tax-and-Spend will hear you and implement that program, and naturally would charge a healthy fee for it.
so true!
Airstream345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 03:55 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
City: Washington
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 265
Quote:
I'm not too familiar with inflatables, but don't they have to actually be worn, where as a traditional PFD can just be "easily accessible" ?
We have six inflatable PFDs. All are type 2 for recreational use. Bought them specifically for the rating.
__________________
-- Rusty
Rusty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 03:57 PM   #12
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,151
A few inflatables dont have to be worn to count...its on the tag.

Type IIs should be acceptable for passengers, but are not for certain watercraft or watersport activity.

Yes some LEOs are pretty poorly trained, as even some Coasties and USCGAUX dont know the intricacies of MSDs regulations, types of placards, other requirements for vessels above 12M.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 08:30 PM   #13
Guru
 
City: Alexandria, VA
Vessel Model: 2000 Wellcraft
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
I agree on more to the story. Find it interesting that the guy isn't fighting the legitimacy of the charge but wants to fight the right to search. That's typically the approach when one is guilty of the charge itself. I have no sympathy at all with the guy.
Not necessarily. Fighting the search is fighting the charge. If the evidence from the search is suppressed, the case is over.
Group9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2018, 09:54 PM   #14
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
Not necessarily. Fighting the search is fighting the charge. If the evidence from the search is suppressed, the case is over.
But one resorts to fighting the search, only when they know they can't fight the charge on it's on merits. Good legal tactic, but also makes it clear they were not in compliance.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2018, 12:00 AM   #15
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,333
Here, and I hope over there,there is a presumption of innocence until found guilty. Unless a defence is clearly hopeless, many defend on all issues.The prosecution can surprisingly fail to prove an element of an offence, if so that`s an end to it.

If evidence relied on was improperly obtained,such as in an illegal search, the evidence should be excluded and the prosecution may fail, never reaching the merits of the charge issue. It`s a perfectly proper approach,and requires a plea of 'not guilty".
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2018, 01:25 AM   #16
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,791
It is possible to get "ramped" by the FAA etc. on an airport where you must allow an inspector or a law-enforcement person to look at your airplane and all your documents. They can also require the pilot to pee in a bottle or have a blood test. This is common in my old industry, even with private planes, its not much of a stretch to apply this to boats. I don't like it though, its like those barriers in Crappy Tire, they assume you are a thief until you can prove you are not and the Coast Guard takes the same attitude.
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2018, 01:32 AM   #17
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xsbank View Post
its like those barriers in Crappy Tire, they assume you are a thief until you can prove you are not .
Barriers in Crappy Tire? Can you please translate for those of us who have no idea what you're talking about?
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2018, 01:59 AM   #18
Veteran Member
 
DC36Monk's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Dream Catcher
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
I agree on more to the story. Find it interesting that the guy isn't fighting the legitimacy of the charge but wants to fight the right to search. That's typically the approach when one is guilty of the charge itself. I have no sympathy at all with the guy.


If you beat the charge on another basis, I.e. Compliance, you lose your opportunity to challenge the search. So, if you want to test the search you challenge it. That's just the way it works.
DC36Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2018, 02:02 AM   #19
Veteran Member
 
DC36Monk's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Dream Catcher
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Barriers in Crappy Tire? Can you please translate for those of us who have no idea what you're talking about?


He's speaking Canadian. Crappy Tires is Canadian Tires, a big chain store.
DC36Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2018, 07:18 AM   #20
Guru
 
City: Alexandria, VA
Vessel Model: 2000 Wellcraft
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
But one resorts to fighting the search, only when they know they can't fight the charge on it's on merits. Good legal tactic, but also makes it clear they were not in compliance.
I'm not aware of any legal jurisdiction where challenging a search and asking for suppression of evidence is allowed to be viewed as a defendant's admission of fact, or taken as being despositive of his guilt, by the trier of fact.

Even in an attempt to suppress a confession for being involuntary ( where the defendant is required to admit that he made the confession to proceed), the trier of fact is not allowed to consider any admission made in the pleadings in determining guilt (unless impeachment issues arise later).

You'll have to cite me some cases on that.
Group9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012