Pay Back Time? - Page 2

timjet · 11-02-2012, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You are responsible for any accident or injury caused by your wake regardless of wake or no wake zone.

I pretty much comply with that statement. In a channel where a boat has no option to get to clear water, a boat throwing a large wake should be held responsible for damage or injury so long as the damaged boat is seaworthy and operated in a responsible manner. However as a boater that is on plane a lot the ones that get me are the little john boats fishing right off the channel. They know where they are and they know big boats go by fast, so who's responsible in that case. Another situation, your on plane throwing a big wake in a channel converging on an 18' bow rider coming at you at 30 kts. If the skipper of the bow rider doesn't know what's he's doing and I don't slow down, he could be in big trouble.
What say you guys?

boatpoker · 11-02-2012, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timjet

I pretty much comply with that statement. In a channel where a boat has no option to get to clear water, a boat throwing a large wake should be held responsible for damage or injury so long as the damaged boat is seaworthy and operated in a responsible manner. However as a boater that is on plane a lot the ones that get me are the little john boats fishing right off the channel. They know where they are and they know big boats go by fast, so who's responsible in that case. Another situation, your on plane throwing a big wake in a channel converging on an 18' bow rider coming at you at 30 kts. If the skipper of the bow rider doesn't know what's he's doing and I don't slow down, he could be in big trouble.
What say you guys?

The USA has more lawyers than every other country in the world combined.... one of them will get you. Even if you win how much will your defense cost ?

ksanders · 11-02-2012, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You are responsible for any accident or injury caused by your wake regardless of wake or no wake zone.

Ok

Prove it. Provide a link to the statute.

Make it a federal statute since we are on Trawler Forum and it is implied that we are boating in USCG jurisdiction.

Your statement quoted above is based word for word from boater safety texts, and has zero basis In fact. It's not your fault for believing it but that doesn't make it true either.

boatpoker · 11-02-2012, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksanders

Ok

Prove it. Provide a link to the statute.

Make it a federal statute since we are on Trawler Forum and it is implied that we are boating in USCG jurisdiction.

Your statement quoted above is based word for word from boater safety texts, and has zero basis In fact. It's not your fault for believing it but that doesn't make it true either.

vessels are required to operate in a prudent matter which does not endanger life, limb, or property (46 USC 2302). Nor do the Navigation Rules exonerate any vessel from the consequences of neglect (Rule 2), which, among other things, could be unsafe speeds (Rule 6), improper lookout (Rule 5), or completely ignoring your responsibilities as prescribed by the Navigation Rules.

RT Firefly · 11-02-2012, 07:36 AM

Greetings,
Ms. Bess. Not meaning to sound too critical here but don't you have a provision for securing furniture and other items in a seaway to prevent "scrambling"? Since experiencing a "blender" moment many years ago where our vessel appeared to be gyrating through 45 degrees in a severe beam sea, for what seemed like hours, whenever leaving port, we make sure any and all projectiles are firmly secured. That being said, any unanticipated rolling, from wakes etc. is usually precluded and acknowledged by "Hang on tight".

rwidman · 11-02-2012, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksanders

If you're not in a no wake zone then there's nothing that the USCG can or should do. There is no violation of any statute.

The sports fishermen have just as much right to travel the waterways within the capacities of their boats as antbody else.

We as boaters need to keep a sharp lookout, and to respond to sea conditions regardless of their cause in a prudent manner taking into account our vessles and crews capabilities.

I do not run our boat up on plane very often, but when I do, it throws a huge wake. There's no way that I could drop off plane for every boat that come into proximity with. The open ocean is a free for all, and nobody I've ever seen slows down.

The considerate captains slow down. If it's a narrow channel or river, they call on the VHF to arrange a slow pass.

That "sea conditions" comment is fine as far as it goes, but the wakes some of these boats throw (and it doesn't have to be a sport fish boat) would equate to sea conditions that might keep us in port.

Several times I have been passed by an AH in a larger boat, throwing a large wake and even though I do all I can to attack the wake at the proper angle and speed, I end up with everything that was loose now on the deck. The latest time resulted in my coffee cup overturning and drenching (and disabling) my wife's cell phone.

As far as calling out the name of the boat on the VHF, I'm usually too busy handling my own boat to catch the name.

For a documented boat, you may be able to look the name up, find the owner, and either call or write to complain. It's only going to make you feel better though.

Unless someone was killed or seriously injured or unless there was serious damage to your boat, that "you are responsible for your wake" thing isn't going to help one bit. You can't make a claim for spilled coffee and the time and materials it took to clean it up.

rwidman · 11-02-2012, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Besslb

........... Slow down, let them overtake, turn into the wake and take it on the bow directly. When I'm at the helm and this happens, I also try really hard to not squeal like a little girl.

Directly or at an angle. But sometimes these wakes bury the bow. So my boat is rocking fore and aft, not side to side. Same difference.

Just to be clear, random cursing or just complaining about another boater on VHF channel 16 is not exactly legal. You're supposed to use that channel to call someone and then switch to a working channel.

healhustler · 11-02-2012, 07:56 AM

I'm just off the ICW in Stuart, FL getting some glass work, but while traveling north on the ICW from Miami two weeks ago, I gotta tell you....it was like a battle of survival with the go-fast boats. Sometimes they'd be in bunches of a half-dozen or so and pass me on both sides at the same time, using the narrow track I left on the starboard side as their own private opportunity to really hammer down and get by some of the other go-fast traffic. I practice turning bow or stern quarter toward the wakes (either works just as well with a Manatee) but with the narrow width of the ICW in places and the two sided traffic assault of a south Florida weekend, you're gonna get it. I hope to finish the work here this weekend, but I'll be waiting to make the trip back to Miami during the week when most of the crazys are doing something else.

Something of note though: I did not pass one single trawler style cruiser of any kind in the two days on the ICW. How, realistically, can one single trawler on the hundred miles or so of that section of the ICW expect to get any consideration from the hundreds of go-fast boat drivers whose enjoyment is crashing into each other's wakes? In south Florida on a weekend with a trawler, you're the odd man out.

Moonstruck · 11-02-2012, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by healhustler

I'm just off the ICW in Stuart, FL getting some glass work, but while traveling north on the ICW from Miami two weeks ago, I gotta tell you....it was like a battle of survival with the go-fast boats. Sometimes they'd be in bunches of a half-dozen or so and pass me on both sides at the same time, using the narrow track I left on the starboard side as their own private opportunity to really hammer down and get by some of the other go-fast traffic. I practice turning bow or stern quarter toward the wakes (either works just as well with a Manatee) but with the narrow width of the ICW in places and the two sided traffic assault of a south Florida weekend, you're gonna get it. I hope to finish the work here this weekend, but I'll be waiting to make the trip back to Miami during the week when most of the crazys are doing something else.

Something of note though: I did not pass one single trawler style cruiser of any kind in the two days on the ICW. How, realistically, can one single trawler on the hundred miles or so of that section of the ICW expect to get any consideration from the hundreds of go-fast boat drivers whose enjoyment is crashing into each other's wakes? In south Florida on a weekend with a trawler, you're the odd man out.

Larry, maybe they were just trying to get a good look at your Double Doody Dinghy Davits.

The 100 mile stretch of ICW that you describe has the most discourteous boaters than any other stretch of the ICW. If the weather is cooperative at all I will avoid it by travelling outside between Ft. Pierce Inlet and Government Cut. It is much more pleasant, and no bridges.

If you want to try outside from Stuart, I recommend you get some local knowledge of the St. Lucie Inlet.

Who is doing your glass work?

psneeld · 11-02-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker

You are responsible for any accident or injury caused by your wake regardless of wake or no wake zone.

Everyone knows that but the application isn't exactly as this "mythical....absolute rule"...suggests.

I have been personally involved as a USCG officer and eyewitness of many wake damage instances where nothing came of it because the "system" instantly recognized that there was nothing out of the ordinary or "no lack of prudent seamanship"...just another guy in a boat that shouldn't have been where he was and now want's someone else to be accountable instead of him.

Yes there are some prominent examples of yachts being held accountable but they are a tiny fraction of reality.

My motto... being a good seaman means you are responsible for EXPECTING a wake at any time and being prepared. While they may be uncomfortable...they should not be damaging or dangerous....or you need to buy a different boat...

Phil Fill · 11-02-2012, 10:44 AM

I try to give them plenty of room, so there is distance and time to turn into the wake. If not then we can take them on the stern as the Eagle stern is round so the majority of the wave passes under/around. It takes a big wake to knock the Eagle around. Bayliners and Ocean seem to be the biggest offenders in the Puget Sound as we do not have many fish killers. I try to give crew/passengers plenty of notice. Get ready to rock and roll! The only things we have to stow are the high/tall center of gravity stuff. There have been a few time I might have squealed.

As for the locks since the bigger boats are put up against the wall we are the first one in and the last one out.

OFB · 11-02-2012, 10:55 AM

Law seems to suggest that since you are there you will assume some accountability / Liability. Even if your vessel is damaged by wake while dock side. We are accountable and your insurance policy backs this up.

I cruise on confined waters all the time. I have a choice when clearing any bridge or narrow spot to let the guy behind clear first by letting him by if he has slowed. My first line of defence.

But when you get that guy rushing up behind you and I dont get the chance to force the slow pass. I try to control the side they pass me on. I will in a slow way force them to my port side. I will continue to do so untill they are beside me giving me the finger while producing that tsunami. What I have done is given me some room to put the stern to the wave, I power down and let that nasty wake pass under me. Then power back up and carry on. Make use of my boat length while reducing any surf tendancy. Have enough room to let the wave pass under pior to needing a course change.

They may not be willing to slow but I can and take advantage of the slow boats ride.

YMMV but works for me.

rwidman · 11-02-2012, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFB

............ But when you get that guy rushing up behind you and I dont get the chance to force the slow pass. I try to control the side they pass me on. I will in a slow way force them to my port side. I will continue to do so untill they are beside me giving me the finger while producing that tsunami. ............. .

That's pretty much the plan I came up with after the last incident. Gently force them to slow down by forcing them out of the channel.

I'll probably get some heat for posting that plan, but I don't care. It's all just opinions anyway. I'm glad to see someone else has figured ot the same plan.

healhustler · 11-02-2012, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonstruck

Larry, maybe they were just trying to get a good look at your Double Doody Dinghy Davits.

Good point. I would really love to give them a demo as they charge by.

If you want to try outside from Stuart, I recommend you get some local knowledge of the St. Lucie Inlet.

Last time I went outside at Jupiter, I was accosted by an hour of 5ft. confused chop, but the rest of the trip to Miami was easy 4 ft. Rollers.

Who is doing your glass work?

After a two week long process of removing my outer roof skin (including 20 hours of grinding the glue off the inner panel with 16 grit) I had a new 12.5 x 8.5 panel made at Beachcomber's in Stuart, then had Custom Boat Works do the foam fill and faring of the new panel. Just finished Wednesday, now waiting for aftercooler and gear-cooler from Yanmar.

Just got a call that my aftercooler is here, and I could actually depart this evening or in the morning, but it would be the same contest back down the ICW. I'll wait, thank you.

boatpoker · 11-02-2012, 11:40 AM

I'll admit I am a little sensitive to this issue after an incident on the Hudson a few years ago. We were southbound in the area of West Point is a 37', single screw doing about 8knots. We were passed by a pair of 80 footers (one on either side doing about 20knots) within about 100' of us. Both my wife and I were thrown across the pilot house and she wore the evidence of serious bruises from shoulder to heel on one side of her body for weeks. There was no cell phone signal and VHF does not get far in the mountains so there was no one to call to file a complaint and we did not get the boat names anyway. It's a good thing we don't carry guns onboard or I would have taken a shot.

Yes, you have the right to use the water, No, you do not have the right to endanger others.

ksanders · 11-02-2012, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatpoker

vessels are required to operate in a prudent matter which does not endanger life, limb, or property (46 USC 2302). Nor do the Navigation Rules exonerate any vessel from the consequences of neglect (Rule 2), which, among other things, could be unsafe speeds (Rule 6), improper lookout (Rule 5), or completely ignoring your responsibilities as prescribed by the Navigation Rules.

I have read that rule many many times.

I believe that the rule you cited actually proves my point.

This belief is strengthened by the actual practice in the field that the USCG does not cite captains for wake damage outside of controlled wake areas.

boatpoker · 11-02-2012, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksanders

I have read that rule many many times.

I believe that the rule you cited actually proves my point.

This belief is strengthened by the actual practice in the field that the USCG does not cite captains for wake damage outside of controlled wake areas.

I think you should re-read my original quote again. I don't see how
"Nor do the Navigation Rules exonerate any vessel from the consequences of neglect" supports your argument and I don't think
the lawyers or the families really care if the USCG issues a ticket or not ..............

(CNN) -- A tour boat carrying a group of senior citizens capsized and sank on an upstate New York lake Sunday, killing 20 passengers, local authorities said.
The Ethan Allen was carrying 48 passengers and one crew member when it overturned off Cramer's Point, on the western shore of Lake George, Warren County Sheriff Larry Cleveland told reporters.
The passengers were part of a group of elderly people from Michigan, he said. (Watch video of police searching the lake -- 1:20 )
"Some were using walkers and wheelchairs and were not able to get around easily," he added.
The 40-foot boat was navigating calm, 70-foot-deep waters on a clear, 69-degree day when at 2:55 p.m. the vessel apparently rolled over after being hit by the wake of a larger craft, Cleveland said. (Map of area)
"We know this happened very quickly," Cleveland told CNN. "He (the boat's captain) didn't have time to put out a mayday call by radio. He didn't even have time hardly to alert the passengers of the potential problem that was about to befall them."
The boat is operated by Shoreline Cruises, based in Lake George, New York, about 50 miles north of Albany. Both the operators and the captain, who was not hurt, "are cooperating with us fully," Cleveland said.
Though all the survivors were taken to nearby Glens Falls Hospital to be checked out, only as many as six appeared to need immediate treatment, he said.
"I'm not aware of any such incident of this magnitude in 37 years I've been on this job," said Wayne Bennett, superintendent of the state police. "This is unprecedented."

or how about the Florida statute .............

Reckless and Careless Operation

Anyone who operates a vessel with willful disregard for the safety of persons or property will be cited for reckless operation (a first-degree misdemeanor).

Or from the New York State Boaters Guide ............

A
vessel operator is always responsible for any damage caused
by the vessel’s wake. Prudent judgment requires operators to
reduce speed when passing marinas, fishing vessels, work boats
or other similar areas. When encountering marine regattas or

parades, always transit.

timjet · 11-02-2012, 02:56 PM

Will the first skipper to test these rules please post the resulting litigation results and the cost to defend themselves.

markpierce · 11-02-2012, 03:20 PM

"Every" motorboat goes faster than I. It's not uncommon for the wake to reach the top of the gunwale when turning into the wake. It's usually not a problem unless distracted and don't maneuver to address the wake. But most of the time the wake is insignificant, such as from this GB (36?) passing me the other day going less than hull speed and staying a helpful distance. The worse wakes seem to come mostly from faster 40 and 50-footers.

Best results usually come by turning something like 80 degrees into the wake from a boat passing parallel from behind and 45 degrees from a boat passing parallel from ahead.

In California inland waters, it is illegal to go faster than 5 MPH within 200 feet of docked boats or within 100 feet of a swimmer.

psneeld · 11-02-2012, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timjet

Will the first skipper to test these rules please post the resulting litigation results and the cost to defend themselves.

I was just involved last year as a witness...a guy in a boat suited for only inland, protected waters ventured into a coastal inlet and was swamped by a 65 foot party fishing boat. I responded as an assistance tower to the swamped boat, pumped it out and turned it back over to the owner.

The Marine Police knucklehead (a shame as most of the ones here are great) issued a citation without so much as questioning anyone buy the complainer. Once it hit the USCG they just ignored it because of the facts, so did the higher ups in the state police but had to follow through because of the citation.

Last I heard it was dismissed due to the overwhelming support of other maritime law enforcement officers and eye witnesses such as myself that supported the party boat captain in that he needed the speed he was making to safely clear the inlet drawbridge. If he paid a lawyer yes that would be a shame...but I really doubted he needed one on the merits alone and could have easily done the same with a little research on his own.

Yes he could get sued...but I'm sure the swamped guy would get laughed out of court after about 3 expert witnesses.

Just remembered a friend who is a charter guy had a similar issue a couple years back...didn't even get a citation after the LEOs asked a few questions.

These like thousands of other no wake complaints get tossed when the whole story is told...