Paravanes

[Pascall]

Hello

I use a milling machine for drilling, but that is also possible on a column drilling machine.
Indeed the drilling speed and the pressure you apply are important, you drill with feeling.
For cooling, lubrication I use standard drilling oil.
For the speed I use 95 PRM.
I use a Bochs hole saw but I don't think the brand matters much, as long as it's BI metal

Another step further, to keep everything in the right place for welding, I made a construction that fixes all seven parts.
After checking everything, all parts were welded together.
All parts are pre-polished, after welding not all sides are accessible for polishing.

Be continued,

Greeting

Pascal.

 

[Pascall]

Pascall: Are your sure you want to put any of that in salt water? Your fabrication is a work of art!

Now that you ask, I'm starting to doubt.
The problem is, the boat is too big to put it in a glass case.
Occasionally a cleaning cloth over it, otherwise I will get bored anyway.

 

[PierreR]

The 95 rpm makes perfect sense. I just never thought of using a hole saw as I would never have guessed you could find one of the correct diameter. Polishing first is also a new one for me.
Looks like you are doing a bit of sanding on the welds prior to polishing. Jigs are always nice but sometimes tough to tack the back side to prevent warp.
You have better equipment and more patience than I do. Safety equipment and railings are the most time-consuming stuff there is.
My hat is off to you. It takes a special person to try for perfection without ruining one's health. My health improved when I learned the difference between excellence and perfection.
I am in need of making some railings for the new boat as my wife is disabled enough to require lots of hand holds. I will chuck a piece of stainless in the rotor table and try it if I can find a hole saw the right size. Are you milling 316?

 

[Bmarler]

The 95 rpm makes perfect sense. I just never thought of using a hole saw as I would never have guessed you could find one of the correct diameter. Polishing first is also a new one for me.
Looks like you are doing a bit of sanding on the welds prior to polishing. Jigs are always nice but sometimes tough to tack the back side to prevent warp.
You have better equipment and more patience than I do. Safety equipment and railings are the most time-consuming stuff there is.
My hat is off to you. It takes a special person to try for perfection without ruining one's health. My health improved when I learned the difference between excellence and perfection.
I am in need of making some railings for the new boat as my wife is disabled enough to require lots of hand holds. I will chuck a piece of stainless in the rotor table and try it if I can find a hole saw the right size. Are you milling 316?

If you’re really going to make railings, I can point you in a direction for specific tools you can get here in the US.
It’s easy to find hole saws the right size, tubing is measured by o.d. And so are hole saws. If you want to cope 1 inch tube you get a 1 inch saw.
Make your life easy and start with polished tubing. Then you only need to passivate and polish the weld area.
If you have the mill already, you can just get cutters the right size. There are also belt sanders that can accept different diameter pulleys for coping. Many ways to do it.
I’ll let it go at that so I don’t hijack the thread any more.

 

[Pascall]

The 95 rpm makes perfect sense. I just never thought of using a hole saw as I would never have guessed you could find one of the correct diameter. Polishing first is also a new one for me.
Looks like you are doing a bit of sanding on the welds prior to polishing. Jigs are always nice but sometimes tough to tack the back side to prevent warp.
You have better equipment and more patience than I do. Safety equipment and railings are the most time-consuming stuff there is.
My hat is off to you. It takes a special person to try for perfection without ruining one's health. My health improved when I learned the difference between excellence and perfection.
I am in need of making some railings for the new boat as my wife is disabled enough to require lots of hand holds. I will chuck a piece of stainless in the rotor table and try it if I can find a hole saw the right size. Are you milling 316?

I use 316 and 304 but in editing I don't notice any difference.
Hole saws come in many sizes, if it is slightly larger you weld it closed again, and indeed stainless steel pulls great
What I can't reach later, I polish in advance.
I sand the welds for the rough work with a lamella disc K60, then with K120.
The post-treatment with a rotating sander K280, continue Polishing.


Pascal.

 

[Pascall]

Hello

Apart from a few details, another part is ready.

I still had some time left so also a Frog, cling, made, I don't know the correct name in English.

Pascal.

 

[balder8]

Hello

Apart from a few details, another part is ready.

I still had some time left so also a Frog, cling, made, I don't know the correct name in English.

Pascal.

Hello,
What a wonderful work! Your polishing finition is top level!
As well, I told you , paravanes design and install are a never ended story!

I have more modestly finished my refit in Benicarlo with a new paint and also some changes on my paravane system but my welder would be KO, kaput, finito if I show him your pictures!
He rebuilt in stainless steel using the same polypropylene plates. I shorten a bit the paravanes arms and added a mounted bracket with bolts on each side starboard and portside deck to "collect" the fish and secure them when not in use. I kept the spring and bidirectionnal connection with the dyneema rope, now 8 meters from the end of the arms. I must test all these figures but will wait gently sunny days! I have also to imagine a system to lift the fish from the water before folding the arms alongside the roof top.

If I understand your plans, you are adding a second paravane arm on portside?

 

[Pascall]

Hello balder 8.

Thanks for the compliment!
There will be a starboard and port side a paravane, as soon as the booms are attached to the mast foot I will send a picture then it becomes clearer.
Solid solution that you have made for storing the paravanes.
Question, what is the function of the ring on the paravane?

Pascal.

 

[balder8]

Hello balder 8.

Thanks for the compliment!
There will be a starboard and port side a paravane, as soon as the booms are attached to the mast foot I will send a picture then it becomes clearer.
Solid solution that you have made for storing the paravanes.
Question, what is the function of the ring on the paravane?

Pascal.

The ring is here ( there are two by fish) to secure the fish on the stainless steel bracket , it is bolted .we had sometimes rough weather with Balder VIII.....
The spring is to make mouvments more smooth .
To be verified of course in real conditions ( Idea of spring found on TF !)

 

[Pascall]

The ring is here ( there are two by fish) to secure the fish on the stainless steel bracket , it is bolted .we had sometimes rough weather with Balder VIII.....
The spring is to make mouvments more smooth .
To be verified of course in real conditions ( Idea of spring found on TF !)

Hello balder 8.

The spring you mention was actually my next question.
I wonder, does the spring not have a detrimental effect on the functioning of the paravanes?
It seems to me that the force that the paravane transfers to the ship is reduced, it is precisely that force that is needed to make the ship swing less, I think.
But, I don't know, that's why my question.

Pascal.

 

[Pascall]

Another step further, the hinges from the booms to the mast foot are ready.
Now attach the frame to the mast base and then already one of the two booms, which is still on the mast, can move to the frame.

 

[Rob]

Your Craftmanship is Outstanding!

All of your paravane projects are truly works of art to be admired! I’ve been running boats with traditional paravane setups for a couple of decades with never an incident. Traditional Paravane was meant to be funny! One thing that I do know for a fact is that most of the people who are full of knowledge about paravanes have never actually used them or for that matter been on a boat with paravanes. One guy on here that I have known for a few years is “Richard Packard” this guy is a very experienced and knowledgeable guy. I also owned and cruised in a Willard 40PH setup with paravanes, if Richard tells you something about paravanes I assure you that he speakers from experience, knowledge and not from the cuff. Our current vessel is a KK42 with paravanes, fortunately for me I’ve used the “Fish” for rough water cruising for years and I’ve also looked at many boats in the PNW that are equipped accordingly prior to building this rig. By the way lines are all Amsteel with the exception of the three strand nylon shock line and one fathom of chain above the actual fish.

 

[KnotYet]

Rob, good looking boat!

 

[Pascall]

All of your paravane projects are truly works of art to be admired! I’ve been running boats with traditional paravane setups for a couple of decades with never an incident. Traditional Paravane was meant to be funny! One thing that I do know for a fact is that most of the people who are full of knowledge about paravanes have never actually used them or for that matter been on a boat with paravanes. One guy on here that I have known for a few years is “Richard Packard” this guy is a very experienced and knowledgeable guy. I also owned and cruised in a Willard 40PH setup with paravanes, if Richard tells you something about paravanes I assure you that he speakers from experience, knowledge and not from the cuff. Our current vessel is a KK42 with paravanes, fortunately for me I’ve used the “Fish” for rough water cruising for years and I’ve also looked at many boats in the PNW that are equipped accordingly prior to building this rig. By the way lines are all Amsteel with the exception of the three strand nylon shock line and one fathom of chain above the actual fish.

Wow, that looks good!
Also the support of the mast looks very strong and also beautiful, this is a special Construction!
What kind of material is the construction made of?
Why is there a partial chain between the paravane and the line?

I have to make a lot of concessions because I regularly have to lay the mast flat for sailing on the Dutch rivers and canals.

 

[PierreR]

Chain between paravane and line is probably to keep the fish from singing. Lots of noise is transmitted up the cables and you can hear them running in the water. It can be very loud.
Also need a system of lines to keep the booms down and in place otherwise they will rock and slam.

 

[Pascall]

Okay, learned something again, thanks!

 

[Airstream345]

“Singing fish”…sounds lovely! Really enjoying following this project.

 

[PierreR]

The lines to hold the boom down can be just an aft line. You will want to run the booms above horizonal because the booms will go below the water in a passing wave and the drag pulls the boat. Because the booms are above horizontal an aft line at the rail keeps the booms down.
You will likely find yourself deploying the fish before you clear the harbor because it is so much easier than pulling them up in waves. You will also likely run them into the harbor. Just watch the depths on the fish because they can snag and pull the boat to the side of the snag.
Have some way to both lift the booms and retrieve the fish at the same time. When the fish clear the water, they can swing dangerously close to the boat. I had internal halyards in the mast into the pilot house and used a long boat hook to snag the cable. Once you have the cable the fish can be controlled and put in their hangers.
You don't need a lot of chain at the fish, a lot of chain tends to pinch fingers.

 

[Pascall]

The lines to hold the boom down can be just an aft line. You will want to run the booms above horizonal because the booms will go below the water in a passing wave and the drag pulls the boat. Because the booms are above horizontal an aft line at the rail keeps the booms down.
You will likely find yourself deploying the fish before you clear the harbor because it is so much easier than pulling them up in waves. You will also likely run them into the harbor. Just watch the depths on the fish because they can snag and pull the boat to the side of the snag.
Have some way to both lift the booms and retrieve the fish at the same time. When the fish clear the water, they can swing dangerously close to the boat. I had internal halyards in the mast into the pilot house and used a long boat hook to snag the cable. Once you have the cable the fish can be controlled and put in their hangers.
You don't need a lot of chain at the fish, a lot of chain tends to pinch fingers.

Thanks again for this valuable information.

Question, how do you lower the paravane, by hand or with an electric winch?
How do you know how deep the paravanes are underwater, do you put a mark in the line?

 

[Sealife]

I have the same setup as Rob. The chain is used to adjust depth, very handy when changing to flopper stoppers in a shallow anchorage.

 

[PierreR]

The depth of the vanes is more or less determined by the rig. Length of the booms, height above the water with the booms down and size of the boat. The problem is a balance between being deep enough they don't come out of the water all the much but shallow enough that when you raise the booms to clear the fish from the water that the fish are far enough away from the boat not to hit the boat but not so far away that you cannot snag the line with a long hook.
The is a fine line between deep enough, too deep and snagging bottom in shallow water, dangerous flying fish when they clear the water and easy retrieval. You will generally find one length of wire for your setup that works the best.
The only alternative is to put a winch on the fish wire and not raising the booms to retrieve the fish.
It's all a bit trial and error to get a good setup. There are no hard and fast rules out there you will find on a custom build. I did not use a winch as my boat and setup were small enough, I did not need it.

 

[Bmarler]

On the trollers, we always had the poles down before dropping the stabilizers. I can’t imagine doing it any other way.

 

[PierreR]

On the trollers, we always had the poles down before dropping the stabilizers. I can’t imagine doing it any other way.

Yes, that is the way I did it also, but I did lift the booms to bring the fish in closer to the boat when retrieving them so I could snag the fish wires with the boat hook.

 

[Larry M]

On the trollers, we always had the poles down before dropping the stabilizers. I can’t imagine doing it any other way.

Same on our Krogen. Once we left the dock or channel the poles were dropped. This also helped with stability and we were ready to deploy the fish as needed.

As far as running depth, our fish were 15’ below the water surface when stopped. This prevented the fish or it’s rigging from fouling the running gear no matter what the sea or conditions were.

 

[Pascall]

I love this forum and the people who give feedback, without you it would have been very difficult for me to realize this project.

I hope to have an advantage that the booms can move both up and down but can also swing backwards.
If the booms are in line with the ship, the movement of the ship has the least influence on it.
In this way I hope to be able to salvage the paravanes easily and safely.

Another step closer to the end, a few reinforcements applied to the hinges of the two booms to the mast base.

 

[Xlantic]

Pascall, the compression forces on the booms can be tremendous, depending on the geometry. Will your booms be in-line with the mast base or offset?

 

[Pascall]

Pascall, the compression forces on the booms can be tremendous, depending on the geometry. Will your booms be in-line with the mast base or offset?

The booms in operation are not 100% in line with the mast, these are attached 30 cm, 11,811 inches behind the mast.

 

[Xlantic]

With a 30 cm "arm" will the boom hinge assembly be able to support the forces from the booms, possibly up to a ton? Bear in mind that only one of the booms at a time will be exerting the high compression force.

 

[Pascall]

With a 30 cm "arm" will the boom hinge assembly be able to support the forces from the booms, possibly up to a ton? Bear in mind that only one of the booms at a time will be exerting the high compression force.

Is what you write about the power distribution is correct.
The power of a ton depends on many factors, speed, surface paravanes, setting angle paravanes, speed of movement of the ship, frequency of the waves, weight of the ship, point of engagement of the booms on the ship and much more.
Complex forces

 

[Xlantic]

Rolly night at the anchorage with the flopper-stoppers out: