paper charts

[backinblue]

Does that mean we are done discussing? I suggested that about 20 posts ago! LOL. But at least you got what you were looking for.

 

[BandB]

Does that mean we are done discussing? I suggested that about 20 posts ago! LOL. But at least you got what you were looking for.

Never done. Someone will add to this thread 5 years from now. You can start threads, but you just can't end them. Ever.

 

[DDW]

The link also discusses the chances of getting hit being 3 times greater on a larger boat versus smaller boat. Also east coast boats 10X more likely to be hit. Look at the bigger picture.

From my original post on the subject:

In the Southeast, the chances of lightening are far greater than in the PNW for example.

Most of us are driving boats in the 35 - 55' category, lightening strike chances in this size range are around 3x the overall average of 0.9. If you are in the SE with a 40' trawler, your chances are probably in the 1 in 100 range.

I've never worried about a strike on the West Coast, but I worried about it on the East Coast, and saw it happen nearby though not to me. 1 in 100 makes it a possible but not probable occurrence. If you are just toodling down the ICW then the loss of all your navigational capability is usually not of great consequence, offshore and heading towards reef infested waters, could be a much greater consequence. It puts you back to the age of exploration, when loss of vessels and life was considered a normal outcome of a voyage.

 

[psneeld]

Without the right programs, I am not a fan of vector charts...but becuase USA rasters are identical to paper (and free)...and they can be transferred from machine to machine...and they have all the same info on them (including compass roses)...and once you get used to them even without GPS input......


Well..... as a person with 2 careers requiring navigation skills...I am content...

 

[Mako]

What if you had a screen the same size as the paper chart, would it still be better with paper?



For instance on a 4x3 foot (approx) chart CHS3001 I can see all of Vancouver Island, the outside offshore and all the inside passages.

I’ve been thinking about that. It wouldn’t be too difficult to take a 40” or larger TV and lay it flat. It would probably work better if it were a touchscreen or if you installed an overlay and used a stylus.

That’s one thing I love about paper charts - working flat, especially on a rolling boat.

 

[Gdavid]

Without the right programs, I am not a fan of vector charts...but becuase USA rasters are identical to paper (and free)...and they can be transferred from machine to machine...and they have all the same info on them (including compass roses)...and once you get used to them even without GPS input......


Well..... as a person with 2 careers requiring navigation skills...I am content...

I prefer raster maps as well for the same reasons. If you like OpenCPN, you may also like "memory map" which is very straightforward to run on mobile android devices, making for a more streamline and portable option or backup. The app is free but you have to buy their raster maps, they are quite cheap (~$15 -20 for an entire region) and they are identical to the NOAA charts. It is not as powerful as OpenCPN (I don't think you can interface with AIS nor a autohelm) nor as cheap but it is easier to set up and provides a more portable solution.

If you are crewing on someone else's boat which may not have a dry or shaded helm or access to and AC outlet to keep a laptop charged, the memory map app on a 10" tablet is tough to beat.

I still enjoy paper for plotting and teaching but for trip planning (contemplating), I like the NOAA chart viewer or my memory map projected to a TV.

 

[Raduran]

Paper charts are no longer going to be printed by the US Government because they are archaic and are out of dates when printed.

Since 2016 the IMO has required e-navigation.

https://www.imo.org/en/OurWork/Safety/Pages/eNavigation.aspx

The e-navigation concept is governed by IMO as the organization responsible for establishing mandatory standards for enhancing the safety of life at sea, maritime security and protection of the marine environment, as well as having global remit for shipping.

The Organization defines e-navigation as "the harmonized collection, integration, exchange, presentation and analysis of marine information on board and ashore by electronic means to enhance berth to berth navigation and related services for safety and security at sea and protection of the marine environment."

NOAA started the discontinuation of paper (raster) charts this year and should only be used for planning.





https://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/charts/future-noaa-charts.html

 

[BandB]

I’ve been thinking about that. It wouldn’t be too difficult to take a 40” or larger TV and lay it flat. It would probably work better if it were a touchscreen or if you installed an overlay and used a stylus.

That’s one thing I love about paper charts - working flat, especially on a rolling boat.

Wifey B: Haven't laid them flat but have put them on as large as a 120" screen just for fun. That was at home, not on a boat. Control was a touch screen. On boat, have put on various televisions.

 

[dhays]

Personally I would rather have an outdated paper chart on board as my back-up than nothing. Just as I would rather have out of date flares, liferaft etc, than none. I will not rely on those outdated items for any purpose unless they are needed.

I would agree with you, but I think part of it is influenced by where we cruise. I could navigate just about anywhere in Puget Sound with the oldest charts I have (some date back to the 1970s, they aren't on the boat, but are stuffed in a closet at home). Other than the very rare change in markers or lights (Swinomish Channel maybe?) there just hasn't been much change that is significant for safe navigation.


Others, as BandB alluded, are boating in areas with relatively constant and rapid changes.



I do enjoy sitting at the kitchen table at home with a set of old charts to do some basic cruise planning. Certainly not necessary, and certainly not for everyone, but it is what I enjoy.

 

[SteveK]

Old charts available
https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1055218&postcount=1

 

[OPUS]

I have near zero concern about electronics' failure - I have backup PCs, phones, tablets, GPSs, more electronics than a space shuttle.

But I prefer paper charts for planning. Same for long road trips where I carry an atlas. There is a lot of information on a chart/map that is not captured on an electronic screen. I find it easier to develop context and identify patterns. Electronic charts are great for pinpoint navigation. Paper charts are good for situational awareness. Electronic charting will tell you that you are 35.3 nms from a waypoint. Paper charts will tell me I should be able to see a landmark or feature.

For me, two different tools with different strengths. Suggest buying a paper chart of your area for your wife and read the fine colored text and the features highlighted. There's a reason they are attractive sheets of paper. There's an amazing amount of data embedded.

Peter

Well said Peter. Seeing the entire picture on a paper chart first and then working out the specific details on the chart plotter and my preferred course of action

 

[Bacchus]

Has anyone mirrored a MFD to an onboard TV as info / entertainment for guests aboard?
No expectation of actual use other than providing "you are here" type info for any/all aboard that might have a casual interest but not enough to spend much time in the pilot house or near the helm.

 

[Mako]

Wifey B, I think you'd be hard-pressed to fit a 10ft screen on a boat, even on that big Italian bad-boy.

Anyway, I think that on a moving boat that a stylus pen would work better on a touch screen than a finger or a mouse/trackball, whether the screen is vertical, angled or horizontal.

I might start experimenting with this and OpenCPN. IMO I'm really liking a computer instead of my chartplotters (Lowrance and ONWA). Just so much more functionality.

 

[backinblue]

Another opinion here on navigation with electronics and paper charts:

https://www.practical-sailor.com/bl...+Uncharted+Waters&utm_campaign=BL20211125-Sub

 

[JWellington]

It's easier to plan using paper charts because you can see the big picture, not just a small section from the electronic charts. I also like to follow our track using the paper chart in case the electronics fail. We have 2 Garmin chartplotters and an iPad Pro running Navionics and Aqua Map. We also have an AIS transceiver and an inReach tracker so our family and friends can follow our progress.

Maybe easier for you, but not for most shipping companies, nor the USN, or Royal Navy..

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Has anyone mirrored a MFD to an onboard TV as info / entertainment for guests aboard?
No expectation of actual use other than providing "you are here" type info for any/all aboard that might have a casual interest but not enough to spend much time in the pilot house or near the helm.

I’ve chartered two vessels which provided this. Unfortunately I didn’t pay much attention as to exactly how, other than to observe that one appeared to use a wireless dongle on the TV with a Raymarine MFD. The other appeared to be cabled somehow from a somewhat-older Garmin. Good for anchor watch and off-watch situational awareness too, though having an actual MFD in your stateroom slaved to “upstairs” so you have some control over the data is preferable.

 

[DDW]

I’ve been thinking about that. It wouldn’t be too difficult to take a 40” or larger TV and lay it flat. It would probably work better if it were a touchscreen or if you installed an overlay and used a stylus.

That’s one thing I love about paper charts - working flat, especially on a rolling boat.

A touchscreen laid flat might be problematic. Every time you touched it, leaned on it, set your coffee or beer on it, something unintended would happen. None of that happens with paper (except maybe a coffee cup ring). I think I'd go with a large trackpad off to the side.

Also, make sure it is a 4K UHD display, you will be looking at it from up close, printed charts are around 150 dots/inch resolution.

 

[Bmarler]

Has anyone mirrored a MFD to an onboard TV as info / entertainment for guests aboard?
No expectation of actual use other than providing "you are here" type info for any/all aboard that might have a casual interest but not enough to spend much time in the pilot house or near the helm.

I set that up for a friend several years ago, but ran the remote from a laptop running nobletec, not a mfd. it was nice to have the chart down in the salon so the family has an idea where they were at.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

 

[FF]

"Same as if China suddenly shoots down our gps satellites."

There is no need to "shoot down" a satellite , simply popping off a small nuke will shut down non military GPS , and probably most communication and power delivery systems.

Look it up, could be a real return to the dark ages.

 

[Mako]

@AlaskaF, looking at that photo more closely, there appear to be at least 8 big screen TVs. And that’s the bridge. Almost looks like a Best Buys in there. Weird. What kind of boat is that?

 

[Alaskaflyer]

That is one of the Dashew FPB boats, 78-1.

Last year I saw a blog post of theirs showing a perspective of their helm viewed straight on from the floor level, at sunset or sunrise that showed all the screens in use but can’t locate it now. Looked in equal parts ridiculous and impressive but certainly more “artsy”

The large one on the port side of the helm can pan and tilt almost horizontal and seems to be a touch screen, so it struck me as more of a real electronic replacement for laying out a paper chart on a table.

 

[JWellington]

"Same as if China suddenly shoots down our gps satellites."

There is no need to "shoot down" a satellite , simply popping off a small nuke will shut down non military GPS , and probably most communication and power delivery systems.

Look it up, could be a real return to the dark ages.

Yes, and since China itself doesnt want to be returned to the dark ages, it will be careful not to take any chances that will happen. Its why the ' mutually assed desteuction ' policy has worked so well, so far. In any case , Chinas more subtle policies have been working very well in their favor.

 

[Jaybo]

Most of mine are rather dated but most are in areas that change little if at all. The granite in Georgian Bay changes very little.
The charts we use frequently are NY & Canadian Canal systems. I also borrowed and used daily the Georgian Bay Small Craft Charts. I would not do any of those areas without charts but I always have echarts up and running at the helm. The paper provide the big picture and as I mentioned are convenient for my mate to be viewing and watching. If there is any question on discrepancy we stop & compare notes. I do recall one instance were Navionics showed a different preferred route than paper and we stopped to review. It turned out both options were acceptable and paper were the official marked channel but Navionics showed a shorter route which was also very navigable.
If cruising new areas or ones I get to infrequently I'm a planner so always work ahead off line with paper.
I'm sure this is a function of how I learned to navigate. I frequently work out waypoints off line, check my work then enter them into my MFD and again cross check the resulting routes.
I found the Great Lakes Cruising Club charts and info very helpful when we cruised Georgian Bay. Although they have all their info in eformat I printed areas of interest and found looking at the print easier than laptop. Their info is most useful in areas with no nav aids and are very localized as in how to enter a restricted Anchorage and show more info than any echart at any zoom level contains.

I raise my cap to Bacchus for citing Georgian Bay. I could navigate the small craft route along the eastern shore of Georgian Bay without paper charts, but I wouldn't be without them. In fact, I use an onboard Raymarine chartplotter, electronic charts on a tablet for redundancy and the appropriate paper chart laid out at the helm. You are threading the needle here through narrow channels with a granite bottom. If you are off the navigation line by even a meter or two, you can be in deep trouble--or is that shallow trouble?. Nothing gives me a clearer sense of where I am and am going than ticking off the marker buoys on the paper chart as I pass them. I've also had my DC system fail and the chartplotter go dark.

I'm surprised at the instances of derision expressed in this thread toward paper charts. I've used celestial navigation (though I couldn't take a sighting today); I doubt I'll ever use it again, but it's an ancient discipline that at least deserves respect. Boaters in coastal navigation or on canals and rivers may feel that they will never need paper charts--you use the tools you need to get where you gotta go. But traditional charts are a great achievement in maritime history, and your knowledge is just that much broader and deeper if you can comfortably plot a route on paper. --Thanks, all

 

[psneeld]

Yeah, I mastered the old ways including celestial. Have respect for the old ways... but as a modern military guy, not going into battle these days with a broad sword and long bow....nor paper charts.

Now I am mastering the new nav techniques ( have been since 1989 when I started flying modern helicopters and not Korean War vintage antiques)... Having both sets of skills is great, but I still feel ZERO necessity of carrying paper charts if I have redundant electronic ones..

Quaint thoughts...and I love the look of raster/paper charts..... but it's still only a preference, not a necessity to carry paper unless that is the only option you can get your hands on.

 

[BandB]

But traditional charts are a great achievement in maritime history, and your knowledge is just that much broader and deeper if you can comfortably plot a route on paper. --Thanks, all

And the old wood burning kitchen stove was a great achievement. The fact one doesn't choose to plot on paper doesn't meant they can't nor that their knowledge isn't just as broad and deep as those who do. Why does either group feel the need to put the other down?

 

[Bacchus]

And the old wood burning kitchen stove was a great achievement. The fact one doesn't choose to plot on paper doesn't meant they can't nor that their knowledge isn't just as broad and deep as those who do. Why does either group feel the need to put the other down?

At least for me no intention to put anyone down.
With that said I have to say on AVERAGE I find a higher level of incompetence with those that have never bothered with paper and believe electronics is all thats necessary vs those that have used paper and don't bother (much) with electronics.
They are both beneficial and have their place IMO but the screen can be a crutch that hinders learning for some

 

[BandB]

At least for me no intention to put anyone down.
With that said I have to say on AVERAGE I find a higher level of incompetence with those that have never bothered with paper and believe electronics is all thats necessary vs those that have used paper and don't bother (much) with electronics.
They are both beneficial and have their place IMO but the screen can be a crutch that hinders learning for some

I think that is such a broad generalization as to be nothing but dangerous. It fails to take experience into consideration and even things like age and when trained. It would be like me saying those who started with paper charts are less skilled with electronics. True for some, false for some.

One problem I see here is those trained 40 years ago vs those trained 10 years ago. Also, those only using for recreational purposes vs those using commercially or even in the military.

As to your generalization, I don't fault any users of paper, but I do firmly believe all that is needed is electronics so I fit into your higher level of incompetence on average group from above and I don't appreciate that, nor believe it. 500 Ton Master, nearly 150,000 nm. I know how to use paper. I know how to use a sextant. There are commercial Captains here with far more experience than me and recreational with far more hours of boating.

I don't grasp why preferring paper or preferring electronics automatically makes one superior.

 

[Bacchus]

I think that is such a broad generalization as to be nothing but dangerous. It fails to take experience into consideration and even things like age and when trained. It would be like me saying those who started with paper charts are less skilled with electronics. True for some, false for some.



One problem I see here is those trained 40 years ago vs those trained 10 years ago. Also, those only using for recreational purposes vs those using commercially or even in the military.



As to your generalization, I don't fault any users of paper, but I do firmly believe all that is needed is electronics so I fit into your higher level of incompetence on average group from above and I don't appreciate that, nor believe it. 500 Ton Master, nearly 150,000 nm. I know how to use paper. I know how to use a sextant. There are commercial Captains here with far more experience than me and recreational with far more hours of boating.



I don't grasp why preferring paper or preferring electronics automatically makes one superior.

I did not mean my comment the way it was taken so my apologies if offended.
1. I'm talking recreational and exclude commercial and military for my generalizations..
2. The generalizations were not to be absolute and I recognize lots of variables. I simply said on avg
3. My basis is from those I have experience with and fully admit that is far from your experience. You stated you are comfortable with paper just dontbsee a benefit and IMO that is very different that those that can only point to a waypoint on screen without the understanding behind it.
No put down or offense intended

 

[Nomad Willy]

Wifey B: And an out of date perspective.

Rocks and sea bottoms don’t go out of date.

In the 70’s I carried lots of paper charts. Had a 28’ cruiser for some years and even built the boat. The “dashboard” (that was slightly angled/slanted) and was plenty big enough for a large chart. Was designed into the cabin of the boat. Storage was always a bit troublesome but worth it.

The only problem I had was taking the girls out and that resulted in them demanding that I turn the chart up-side-down. I finally agreed and we/I got lost. Not for long. We were in Glacier Bay I took them (3) into Bartlett Cove where they caught a plane going home to Juneau.

But that was only a one day problem.
Had a nice ride home anchoring behind the island at Point Couverdon.