Opinions wanted.

[sunchaser]

Brian, if you are really serious, some suggestions to broaden your base:

• Many large yachts are advertised as, but few are truly qualiifed as blue water vessels. Vessel history counts for a lot.
• You may care to cruise the Yacht Forums website, there is considerable large yacht experience from which to pick, choose and communicate.
• For long ocean passages and a very large blue water owner base from which to glean knowledge, you owe it to yourlself to visit Dana Point and talk with the Nordhvan group.
• For possibly the best offshore knowledge existant today from a designer, builder, writer and expert talk with Steve Dashew.
• Last but not least, I may have missed it, what is your previous hands on boat owner experience particularly deep salt water?

[FF]

House battery bank consisting of 12pcs 6 volt Lifeline AGM batteries connected
in series parallel to provide 1200 A/H’s capacity at 24 volts.

Great the alts on the main engine will frequently have loads of time , so the use of smaller alts is fine.

However
"Two stacked 3500 watt Outback pure sine-wave inverters with 170 amp (@ 24
volts) battery charging capacity".

Here the smaller (any under 10KW ) noisemaker may not be able to power these units to capacity.

The use /expense of AGM is because they can be restored at a more rapid rate than 1/3 the price wet batts.

For the shortest noisemaker time weather a 6KW will work for anchor / nite loads will have to be noodled on paper..

Choices, choices, shorter noisemaker run time , or longer?

FF

[SOMERS]

Originally Posted by hfoster

Hi to everyone. I am new to trawler forums and I wish to get some opinions from you trawler pros on some trawlers and outfitting them. Just a quick background on myself, I have steamed the Great lakes for years. I have piloted vessels from 16’ up to 85’ on the lake and have enjoyed every second of it.

With that said, my wife and I are looking to make the jump to the sal****er realm. We are planning on purchasing a new trawler in the next year and fitting it to our needs. We will be living aboard this vessel and will be making long voyages, like voyages from Port Charlotte Fl to the Hawaii Island and also do the great loop if and when the mood strikes us.

I am fully aware of the cost of purchasing a new Trawler and outfitting it. We have the capital to achieve our goals, so that is not an issue for us, thank God. We have worked hard to finally enjoy life in our early 50’s

Now here is what I have come up with and I would like the Trawler Pro’s input to see what their opinions are.

Vessel. The New Fleming 78.
Spec. Out with some of these options.

Fuel Tanks 3,500 USG. Water 500 USG. Black Water 250 USG. Gray Water 250 USG.
2 Lube oil tanks 95 USG
2 ONAN EQD 32 KW 60 hz Generators.
Power plant. Twin Man V12 1550 Hp
Furuno. 3D (Main)
Garmin Plotter (Back up)
Radar X7 96nm
Autopilot (Not sure yet on brand)
Sonar (Not sure yet on brand)
Radio VHF (Not sure yet on brand)
Tender minim of 15’
Plus all safety items that will be needed.

If you have a different opinion on the Fleming 78 or any of the other equipment, please specify your reasoning as to why or why not. I do understand that everyone has their own opinion of their favorite vessels but that is not what I am looking for. I am looking quality, safety, longevity but most of all a vessel that fits our needs. I’m sure I’ve left out many features that may be needed but this makes a good start for me to continue my research on trawlers and all desired equipment. Thank you for your time and patience.

Cordially,

H. Foster

I am thinking that you may require a full displacement boat.
not semi displacement which are costal cruisers

[Phil Fill]

The amp load can be reduced by timers and relays so as one shuts off another can turn on. We still have timers on the electric water heater, battery charger, two of the four electric heaters and the two electric refrigerators on the back deck. We have found as you start cruising moving around that the dock power available as low as 20 amps. I plan on replacing the two refrigerators with AC/DC/Propane, as one quit so we use it as storage. One of my concerns is having enough ICE CREAM between ports.


However, FF and I tend to disagree on Anchoring vs. Dock and inverter/battery banks vs gen sets.

I would caution having a boat with 24 volt DC, unless the wiring was sized larger for 12 volt DC. As the volts go up the amps drops and so does the required wire size. So you can go from 12 volt to 24 volt but you may not be able to go from 24 volt to 12 volt. So be sure to check out the wire size. Also 24 volt DC items are limited and more expensive. There is nothing on a 55 to 75 ft boat that requires 24 volt, and the only thing that requires might 240 volts AC is a drier, so I would caution against 240 volts AC also.

As mentioned we have a 5 KW cruise gen set which is belt drive by the main 671 when out and about and has an electric clutch so it free wheel when not in use. The big 10 KW/Perkins gen set is mainly used to power the hydraulic pump for the bow thruster/get home, and at anchor/dock. I will also carry a small portable diesel gen set as back up to the back up.

I am not a believer in inverter and large battery banks for larger boats. Better to spend the money on sound proofing, and running a small gen set especially if the boat has a high AC power demand. Inverter and battery bank might be OK for evening and/or night if you turn off the high amp AC stuff. I like my electric blanket, air conditioning, pop corn and ice cream.

Gee, I don't know if we want to een start duscuss coastal crusing and crossing oceans, whihc should be a completely different discussion. Rather than get miss mashed in this discussion. I think NOT

[FF]

"There is nothing on a 55 to 75 ft boat that requires 24 volt,"

Most modern ENGINES of the size required for this boat will be true industrial (or OTR truck) and will come with 24v from the factory for the required injector brain box.. 2012 AD

Once 24V is aboard it makes sense to use it for all power , fans, pumps etc. that is not Hyd, like the windlass , bow thruster and perhaps stabelizers.

12V for RV stuff can be created with a Vannier unit which does not harm the batteries.

FF

[markpierce]

Heck, why not have it all (12-volt DC, 24-volt DC and 110-volt AC)?

[hfoster]

Wow. FF, Phil Fill and Markpierce. Some great stuff you guys. FF is right! Choices, choices! After reading everyones posts that is what it is coming down to in many ways. CHOICES. And I have alot of them to make. You guys have really made me put the old thinking cap on that is for sure and I thank you all for that. I am so glad I started this project early and that I have gotten some great input in helpping me make those choices.

Phil Fill also has a great point on the 2 different cruising realms apples to apples. As I have said before. I would to have the best of both worlds. May be I will not be able to do that but one does not know until they try.

Thanks again everyone for your input and your time. It has been a great help to me !!! THANK YOU

H. Foster

[psneeld]

There's a small grass roots push in the marine industry to go from 12 to 24V due to wire run length and how wasteful 12V wiring is. Most systems are easily run with 24V components.

I think one article was on the Westlawn site...

[FF]

The more modern concept , and cheapest to install, and later modify is the "ring circuit.

Here a heavy set of wiring is simply run around the boat in a complete circle , from the batts to the bow , and back on the other side of the hull. This wire is protected with large class "T" fuses.

Where ever power is required , say a pump, the lines are tapped into with OTS connectors . this circuit tap will have a CB to protect the smaller wires , and a fuse to protect the individual item at the item.

Of/ on is controlled by a wireless setup , with an actual local off/ on switch , should the wireless fail.

Near idiots can install or change the wiring , yet the system can be monitored down to the last .0001A if required.

Load shedding is simply part of a controller program.

FF

[JD]

Originally Posted by FF

The more modern concept , and cheapest to install, and later modify is the "ring circuit.

Here a heavy set of wiring is simply run around the boat in a complete circle , from the batts to the bow , and back on the other side of the hull. This wire is protected with large class "T" fuses.

Where ever power is required , say a pump, the lines are tapped into with OTS connectors . this circuit tap will have a CB to protect the smaller wires , and a fuse to protect the individual item at the item.

Of/ on is controlled by a wireless setup , with an actual local off/ on switch , should the wireless fail.

Near idiots can install or change the wiring , yet the system can be monitored down to the last .0001A if required.

Load shedding is simply part of a controller program.

FF

This concept has been talked about for a while now. I had read where one of the major companies was going to actually build a boat for production using this concept. That was two or three years ago. Does anyone know if it has happened. As a reference it was about the time the Pod Drives were starting to come out.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by JD

This concept has been talked about for a while now. I had read where one of the major companies was going to actually build a boat for production using this concept. That was two or three years ago. Does anyone know if it has happened. As a reference it was about the time the Pod Drives were starting to come out.

I plan on rewiring my boat with this concept...been thinking for a long time why it hasn't been done by manufacturers that I know....other than not as user friendly the way I see it...but I'm sure there's lots of ways of doing it...the easier ones must be more expensive.

Thinking of going up to 24 volts to save $ on wiring but might lose it as I would have to replace too many systems right off the bat.

[JD]

Originally Posted by psneeld

I plan on rewiring my boat with this concept...been thinking for a long time why it hasn't been done by manufacturers that I know....other than not as user friendly the way I see it...but I'm sure there's lots of ways of doing it...the easier ones must be more expensive.

Thinking of going up to 24 volts to save $ on wiring but might lose it as I would have to replace too many systems right off the bat.

I had heard that the problems were with the wireless circuit breakers that were being used (failure to function as advertised).

I think you are correct as to costs being equal when all done. I really don't see much of an advantage to the 24V but may see a downside if trying to replace a part in BFE.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by JD

I had heard that the problems were with the wireless circuit breakers that were being used (failure to function as advertised).

I think you are correct as to costs being equal when all done. I really don't see much of an advantage to the 24V but may see a downside if trying to replace a part in BFE.

Wasn't going to use CB's..was going to have 3-4 subpanel fuse blocks...I don't trust marine CBs as they have a bad rep anyho. Most cabin circuits rarely trip so the occasional fuse replacement would not be a chore.

I'll have to look into 24v pumps, bulbs, etc...I'm not sure that they are that hard to get and with Amazon overnight and a few key spare on board...may not be that bad.

[Phil Fill]

I do not think it will pass ABYC or be insureable? I had to bring the Eagle up to code by our insurance company.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Phil Fill

I do not think it will pass ABYC or be insureable? I had to bring the Eagle up to code by our insurance company.

Sure it will...why not? As long as every wire is fuse protected and correct size and the connections meet ABYC...what's the diff?

At least my system will be visable(traceable) for a surveyor...as opposed to a bunch of hidden wire bundles that he has no idea of what's going on when he looks at them.

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
I fully agree with Mr. psneed and to add, ABYC "codes" are nothing of the sort. They are GUIDELINES or SUGGESTIONS so as to provide a comparison with voluntarily accepted practices. If they had ANY basis in law, the vast majority on board here would have to re-wire!
A good surveyor should apply a certain amount of discretion when passing judgement.
Definition for code - Oxford Dictionaries Online (US English)

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by RT Firefly

Greetings,
I fully agree with Mr. psneed and to add, ABYC "codes" are nothing of the sort. They are GUIDELINES or SUGGESTIONS so as to provide a comparison with voluntarily accepted practices. If they had ANY basis in law, the vast majority on board here would have to re-wire!
A good surveyor should apply a certain amount of discretion when passing judgement.
Definition for code - Oxford Dictionaries Online (US English)

Unfortunately the insurance companies DO have some strange ideas as to whose advice they follow!

So I will be extra carefull to follow their code.

[ksanders]

As an electrical professional, I'm not a fan of this whole ring system concept.

I also have mixed feelings as to having a direct connection from each circuit back to the main DC, or AC panel.

Its frustrating in that if I want to add a circuit in say the engine room of my boat, why should I take apart half the boat just to run a circuit back to the main panel in the pilothouse.

I understand the concept, and I suppose it is nice being able to check any breaker from the vicinity of the helm station, but in practicality we don't troubleshoot everything from the helm seat.

If I were designing the power distribution on my boat (a 47' pilothouse) I'd start with a main panel, then have sub panels feeding off of that.

At the very least a sub panel in the engine room, one at the helm, flybridge, etc...

I would not even consider electronic breaker panels or anything like that. I'd stick with old technology that has a proven track record of reliability.

What I would like to see is a fuse alarm. We have them on many of the systems I work on. If a fuse or breaker trips, then an alarm contact closes and a light illuminates.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by ksanders

As an electrical professional, I'm not a fan of this whole ring system concept.

I also have mixed feelings as to having a direct connection from each circuit back to the main DC, or AC panel.

Its frustrating in that if I want to add a circuit in say the engine room of my boat, why should I take apart half the boat just to run a circuit back to the main panel in the pilothouse.

I understand the concept, and I suppose it is nice being able to check any breaker from the vicinity of the helm station, but in practicality we don't troubleshoot everything from the helm seat.

If I were designing the power distribution on my boat (a 47' pilothouse) I'd start with a main panel, then have sub panels feeding off of that.

At the very least a sub panel in the engine room, one at the helm, flybridge, etc...

I would not even consider electronic breaker panels or anything like that. I'd stick with old technology that has a proven track record of reliability.

What I would like to see is a fuse alarm. We have them on many of the systems I work on. If a fuse or breaker trips, then an alarm contact closes and a light illuminates.

What you are describing is what I envisioned...a blue seas blade 12 or 6 position fuse panel in the fwd stateroom/head/galley, one in the main salon, one in the engine room for auto bilge pumps and other non-switched items, one aft for the master strm/head, one for lower helm/electronics and one on the flying bridge. One main running fwd to supply 4 subs, one aft to supply 2. Each fused at a main Positve post/block.

But you do give me the idea to think each sub feed from the main via a CB.

[FF]

"why should I take apart half the boat just to run a circuit back to the main panel in the pilothouse."

Because the boat assembler did not feel justified in spending $5.00 you couldn't see.

This is what a ring circuit should solve with out requiring the $5.00 of initial expense.

FF