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Old 06-14-2022, 01:38 PM   #81
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for me is the main thing that i haven redundency with 2 motors. in the past 14 years i have needed it.
1 time a propeller bend,
2 times a gearbox problem
on our new (old) boat a engine heat alarm afther 20min.
it was the temp sensor, but you cant take any risk. so we carry on on one engine
i also are a fond of 2 complete seperated engine system, each his ouwn start battery, electronics and fuel tank

my boats where second hand and you never now the exact state of the engines.
i had detroid diesel and carterpillars

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Old 06-14-2022, 02:01 PM   #82
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Regarding engine make, model etc., though there are not a lot of V-8 diesels out there They should as a rule be avoided. (Cat 3208 comes to mind). The majority of diesels are I-6 (in line 6). There are issues with most engine manufacturers of different eras and models. If you are considering a specific boat, research the engine make/model & generation. Problems found in some earlier generations may have been resolved in later years. (Cummins B5.9 early casting issues). Some engines were great but the injection systems were a problem (Roosa rotary injection pumps have had their issues). That said a blanket rule is not always going to be true. Look at maintenance history, the more records the better. Have the engines surveyed for sure. Best of luck.
Not sure Cat 3208s as a rule should be avoided.

Many have provided long, hard service in everything from trawlers to sportfish to fishing vessels to commercial work boats......mine and many I know were relatively low maintenance also.
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Old 06-14-2022, 02:05 PM   #83
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. But it is nice when one engine quits to be able to get home on the other engine. .
You make it sound like a regular occurrence?
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Old 06-14-2022, 02:07 PM   #84
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my boats where second hand and you never now the exact state of the engines.
i had detroid diesel and carterpillars
Yum Cha clones
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Old 06-14-2022, 02:17 PM   #85
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Had several long conversations with the gentleman who consults at present for Lugger/NL. He said singles fail less often and are rarely towed. He thought with a single any new noise, vibration or hiccup is identified and addressed ASAP. He thought this was both due to a higher level of concern if failure occurred as well as it being easier to be aware of new deviations from normal.
.
Certainly my way of thinking
And with the big single, ease of access has regular checks and maintenance performed.

Never like doing miles with Genset running and very rarely do due to second engine noise in the mix.
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Old 06-14-2022, 03:07 PM   #86
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I’d avoid twins if I a single engine can get me everywhere I want to go. With practice you can learn how to maneuver anything. It might take longer or conditions may need to change at worst. Huge savings in time and money.
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Old 06-14-2022, 07:20 PM   #87
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I’d avoid twins if I a single engine can get me everywhere I want to go. With practice you can learn how to maneuver anything. It might take longer or conditions may need to change at worst. Huge savings in time and money.
Savings are modest, not huge. And you can get everywhere you want to go with a single until it craps out and leaves you stranded.
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Old 06-14-2022, 07:22 PM   #88
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You make it sound like a regular occurrence?
It has happened to me twice, both at very inopportune times so regularity is not the issue. Do you start your engines from your house bank or do you have separate starting batteries, for redundancy don't you kmow?
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Old 06-14-2022, 08:03 PM   #89
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It has happened to me twice, both at very inopportune times so regularity is not the issue.
Do you start your engines from your house bank or do you have separate starting batteries, for redundancy
We have seperate starts with both alternator and smart charger attached to keep them in peak condition.

At the flick of a switch we can get a boost using the house bank if required.


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don't you kmow?
Yes I do know.
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Old 06-14-2022, 09:56 PM   #90
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1v2

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We are new to this type of boating. Stepping up from a 19.5' open bow to hopefully a 36'-44' trawler. I would prefer a single engine but there are several nice vessels for sale with twins.
What would the operating cost difference be between the single verses twins.
Standard Preventative Maintenance Costs?
Fuel Consumption?
What motors to stay away from?
Deb and I have been happily married for 28 years. I don't think the docking learning curve with either (single or twin) is going to have a negative effect on our marital bliss.
Are there any other +/- of single engines verses twins?
Thanks for your input and this forum is great!
Peter and Deb
All great questions. One of my major criteria when buying my boat was 1 engine.
Backing a single screw boat takes practice but you can learn it easily.
One engine has 1 motor, 1 transmission, 1 shaft, 1stuffing box, 1 cutless bearing and the screw is protected by the the housing that holds the shaft and screw.
Two engines don’t have that.
I have my motor, transmission, shaft,cutless bearing and gen professionally maintained. A professional will find issues you will never see if you do it yourself. Just a standard annual maintenance with no issues will be $1000. Double that for 2 engines. When it’s time for serious maintenance, replacement or repair you are looking at thousands for two engines.
With one engine you can literally move around the motor and transmission with ease. With 2 motors you can barely get into the engine room.
The myth that two engines are more reliable than one is tempting but doesn’t hold water. A well maintained Diesel engine will probably only fail for 1 reason; fuel. If you have bad fuel you can have 2 engines or 10.
They will all fail. I have one engine with 7700 hours and it purrs like a kitten. This is my advice. I’m a one engine guy. Listen to all advice and make your decision.
Stay away from Volvos. Expensive to maintain and very difficult to get parts. I have 50 years boating experience, for what it’s worth.
A Ford Lehman 120 burns 2 gals/hr at 8 kts in calm seas.
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Old 06-15-2022, 02:39 AM   #91
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Didn't the era of recreational trawlers (diesel boats never, not able, exceeding hull-speed) begin with the fuel crises of the mid-1970s? Are we returning? (I've always "been there".)
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Old 06-15-2022, 05:57 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
We have seperate starts with both alternator and smart charger attached to keep them in peak condition.

At the flick of a switch we can get a boost using the house bank if required.



Yes I do know.
Thank you for making my point.
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Old 06-15-2022, 06:26 AM   #93
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All great questions. One of my major criteria when buying my boat was 1 engine.

Backing a single screw boat takes practice but you can learn it easily.

One engine has 1 motor, 1 transmission, 1 shaft, 1stuffing box, 1 cutless bearing and the screw is protected by the the housing that holds the shaft and screw.

Two engines don’t have that.

I have my motor, transmission, shaft,cutless bearing and gen professionally maintained. A professional will find issues you will never see if you do it yourself. Just a standard annual maintenance with no issues will be $1000. Double that for 2 engines. When it’s time for serious maintenance, replacement or repair you are looking at thousands for two engines.

With one engine you can literally move around the motor and transmission with ease. With 2 motors you can barely get into the engine room.

The myth that two engines are more reliable than one is tempting but doesn’t hold water. A well maintained Diesel engine will probably only fail for 1 reason; fuel. If you have bad fuel you can have 2 engines or 10.

They will all fail. I have one engine with 7700 hours and it purrs like a kitten. This is my advice. I’m a one engine guy. Listen to all advice and make your decision.

Stay away from Volvos. Expensive to maintain and very difficult to get parts. I have 50 years boating experience, for what it’s worth.

A Ford Lehman 120 burns 2 gals/hr at 8 kts in calm seas.
Your statements are woefully flawed generalities that do no apply to all twin-engined boats. You prefer a single but having a second engine for redundacy is no myth; it is common sense. I own a DeFever 44. Here are some examples.

1. My screws are not unprotected. Their bottoms lie four inches ABOVE the full length keel.

2. Yes, engines themselves seldom fail but that is not the only cause of lack of propulsion. Twice, at very inopportune times, I lost propulsion because of a failed DriveSaver coupling. First was in the stair step locks in Ottawa. No propulsion in a single there would not have been fun for anyone especially because it was Canada Day. The second time forced me to run on one engine 45 miles to my destination. The TowBoat US boat was unable to tow me any distance. And it was Christmas Eve. Not fun. If I had had only s single, I would have been stuck there for a few days.

What else could stop an engine? Failed vibration damper. Blown hoses. Fuel pump. Starter (leaving an anchorage). Fan belt and you forgot the spare. The list goes on so to say that a single gives one just as much peace of mind as do twins is ridiculous. It is a choice made with known risks.

3. Bad fuel, a rarity, can be mitigated with dual Racors. So, having both engines stop cuz of bad fuel happens only from bad boating.

4. Engine room access. Mine is 5.5 feet tall and I can access the outboard sides of each with little difficulty.

5. My 6,700 hour Lehman 120s purr as your does.

6. Standard annual maintenance on a Lehman 120 is $1,000? Now that is one of the most ridiculous assertions that I have ever read on this forum. Let's see. Oil, three gallons, $50. One oil filter, $15. One impeller, $40. One fuel filter, $40. What have I missed that will get to $1,000?

7. Learning a single screw - yes, one can learn, but nearly as easily and quickly as with twins. And, when conditions go to crap, twins outshine singles every time.
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Old 06-15-2022, 06:40 AM   #94
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If you know what you are doing, single is the advantage every step of the way. Today, so many seem to need thrusters. Do not understand why. If you know how to drive a boat and you know what you are doing, single is a snap. As far as cost, efficiency and overall value, one engine is all you need.

I guess you won't be coming back, but I'll just mention you used two IF statements... both assuming already-existing stellar knowledge and experience with a single screw boat.

Some folks who ask questions in forums don't already have that in their tool box, often hence their questions.

IOW your answer assumes a level of experience the questioner may not have yet.

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Old 06-15-2022, 06:43 AM   #95
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Didn't the era of recreational trawlers (diesel boats never, not able, exceeding hull-speed) begin with the fuel crises of the mid-1970s? Are we returning? (I've always "been there".)
Yup, that's definitely what spurred the era of recreational trawlers becoming more common. But many of them have never been truly displacement hulls. A lot of the TTs and such never had enough power to get very far above hull speed, so as a practical matter, they rarely did, but they were capable of exceeding it.

The important part is that anything that would be considered a trawler is intended to spend a lot of its time cruising slowly and efficiently (and with acceptable low speed handling). Even if it can go faster. In great contrast to many faster powerboats where going fast is the priority and low speed handling is poor enough that you'll never do it outside a no wake zone.
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Old 06-15-2022, 06:51 AM   #96
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Your statements are woefully flawed generalities that do no apply to all twin-engined boats. You prefer a single but having a second engine for redundacy is no myth; it is common sense. I own a DeFever 44. Here are some examples.

1. My screws are not unprotected. Their bottoms lie four inches ABOVE the full length keel.

2. Yes, engines themselves seldom fail but that is not the only cause of lack of propulsion. Twice, at very inopportune times, I lost propulsion because of a failed DriveSaver coupling. First was in the stair step locks in Ottawa. No propulsion in a single there would not have been fun for anyone especially because it was Canada Day. The second time forced me to run on one engine 45 miles to my destination. The TowBoat US boat was unable to tow me any distance. And it was Christmas Eve. Not fun. If I had had only s single, I would have been stuck there for a few days.

What else could stop an engine? Failed vibration damper. Blown hoses. Fuel pump. Starter (leaving an anchorage). Fan belt and you forgot the spare. The list goes on so to say that a single gives one just as much peace of mind as do twins is ridiculous. It is a choice made with known risks.

3. Bad fuel, a rarity, can be mitigated with dual Racors. So, having both engines stop cuz of bad fuel happens only from bad boating.

4. Engine room access. Mine is 5.5 feet tall and I can access the outboard sides of each with little difficulty.

5. My 6,700 hour Lehman 120s purr as your does.

6. Standard annual maintenance on a Lehman 120 is $1,000? Now that is one of the most ridiculous assertions that I have ever read on this forum. Let's see. Oil, three gallons, $50. One oil filter, $15. One impeller, $40. One fuel filter, $40. What have I missed that will get to $1,000?

7. Learning a single screw - yes, one can learn, but nearly as easily and quickly as with twins. And, when conditions go to crap, twins outshine singles every time.
CatalinaJack - still have your DriveSavers?

Annual maintenance on a yacht-diesel by a professional does approach $1k. A decent mechanic @ $150/hr will do much more than change oil and an impellor - valve adjustment, engine alignment, sea-strainer, battery check, lube cables/linkages, adjust idle RPM, check hoses, check/replace belts, check/clean heat exchanger, etc. Much of the stuff needed to keep an engine running reliably. There is some efficiency of labor with twins, so it's not 2x, but it's not trival either.

The Defever 44 is fairly unique in its twin configuration. On the outside, sort of looks like a traditional Taiwan Trawler/Sundeck. Clearly, it's not - as you mention, stand-up engine room, smaller engines sized for displacement speeds, decent access to outboard side of engines, I love the sea-chest, etc. It's a solid boat that's a sleeper in the market. The boat has a fair amount of sail area that can make close-quarter maneuvering a handful, and really needs some form of active stabilization. But it's a solid boat. I wish there were more twins like it in the sub-60' trawler segment.

As a devout single guy, I try to be realistic and objective. Clearly, there is some benefit to have a twin for redundancy. But that's mostly for distance cruising where there is zero support. The situations you describe are highly inconvenient, but salvagable. Keep your engine well-maintained and liklihood of underway failure is pretty slim. And lets not forget that while you may get home if one of your engines fail, it will hobble you until it gets fixed (I know of no one who would continue their cruise/vacation with only one of two engines working). And you have twice the liklihood of that happening, especially when you consider twins are rarely as well maintained as singles.

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Old 06-15-2022, 07:48 AM   #97
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As a devout single guy, I try to be realistic and objective. Clearly, there is some benefit to have a twin for redundancy. But that's mostly for distance cruising where there is zero support. The situations you describe are highly inconvenient, but salvagable. Keep your engine well-maintained and liklihood of underway failure is pretty slim. And lets not forget that while you may get home if one of your engines fail, it will hobble you until it gets fixed (I know of no one who would continue their cruise/vacation with only one of two engines working). And you have twice the liklihood of that happening[/U], especially when you consider twins are rarely as well maintained as singles.

Peter
I'm sorry Peter... cause I always enjoy reading your posts... but, I just gotta mention... portion of this paragraph is, well - just too much! LOL

The platitude that "... twins are rarely as well maintained as singles." is simply a wishful guess by single engine advocates searching for something else detract-full to say about boat owners who enjoy twins.

Your mention of "... (I know of no one who would continue their cruise/vacation with only one of two engines working). "And you have twice the likelihood of that happening..." WOW - That' a mixed-up bag of a statement if I've ever seen one. Our Tolly tracks well on one engine at below hull speed and its BW Velvet Drive trany can free wheel with no problem. Your mention of: "... you have twice the likelihood of that happening..." Gee Peter... you have once the likelihood of that happening, and, if it does you're dead in the water! Twins are NOT!

Please understand, I'm not trying to bad mouth single engine boats... but, I'm tired of single engine owners too often trying to put a bad slant on twins.

I've owned and enjoyed both types of boats and feel they both have their high and low points for ownership. As Rodney King said: "Can't we all just get along!"

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Old 06-15-2022, 07:56 AM   #98
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With twins, you have a higher risk of having a failure, but a lower risk of being stranded due to a failure.



Personally, I wouldn't worry all that much about the redundancy unless crossing oceans or spending a lot of time in confined waters. In confined waters a failure can be a big deal if you lose all propulsion. But in somewhat more open waters, it's not such a big deal to drop the anchor (if reasonable), get to work on the problem, and call for a tow if you can't fix it.
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Old 06-15-2022, 08:47 AM   #99
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I'm sorry Peter... cause I always enjoy reading your posts... but, I just gotta mention... portion of this paragraph is, well - just too much! LOL

The platitude that "... twins are rarely as well maintained as singles." is simply a wishful guess by single engine advocates searching for something else detract-full to say about boat owners who enjoy twins.

Your mention of "... (I know of no one who would continue their cruise/vacation with only one of two engines working). "And you have twice the likelihood of that happening..." WOW - That' a mixed-up bag of a statement if I've ever seen one. Our Tolly tracks well on one engine at below hull speed and its BW Velvet Drive trany can free wheel with no problem. Your mention of: "... you have twice the likelihood of that happening..." Gee Peter... you have once the likelihood of that happening, and, if it does you're dead in the water! Twins are NOT!

Please understand, I'm not trying to bad mouth single engine boats... but, I'm tired of single engine owners too often trying to put a bad slant on twins.

I've owned and enjoyed both types of boats and feel they both have their high and low points for ownership. As Rodney King said: "Can't we all just get along!"

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I think rslifkin's post just before this one says what I was trying to say more eloquantly - twins have higher probability of failure; but lower chance of being stranded (impact).

The reason for my statement that owners of singles' are more diligent has it's roots in Mark Twains adage "if you put all your eggs in one basket.....watch that basket!" But I shouldn't have made such a declarative statement that all twin owners are less festidious than owners of a single. I will say that there is more incentive for a single-owner to tag all bases.

I have tried hard not to put a bad slant on twins. You will never hear me say a single handles as well as a twin in close-quarters. It just isn't true. You will never hear me say a single is as reliable as twin because that just isn't true either (duh). You will never hear me say you can put a single anywhere you want because that isn't true (at least for me).

Now, I've owned a twin (back in the early 1990s I owned a 1975 Uniflite ACMY with Cummins 555s). The stuff you won't hear me say about twins includes: "maintenance costs are close to the same." "Fuel economy of a twin is roughly the same as a single when operated at displacement speeds" (the difference may be acceptable, but there is a decent penalty). "Running a twin on one engine is similar economy to if it was a single" (see previous).

To my tastes, the #1 reason to own a twin is you can fit more horsepower in the engine room so you can faster. #2 reason is maneuverability. #3 reason is redundancy (distant #3 for vast majority of people who never leave TowBoatUS zone).

The reasons to own a single are a bit less clear because it bleeds into reasons to own a displacement boat which is hard for me to differentiate because I just like going at jogging speed. But if I were to compare buying a single or twin GB36, I would chose a single due to #1 engine room accessibility/maintainability; #1a would be economy (and range). #2 is protected running gear; #3 (distant benefit) is ability to carry other stuff and equipment such as generator, watermaker, etc.

Calculus really chnages if you're headed into remote zones. I still do it with a single, and believe me, I check my running gear, hoses, etc. I mean I really go through it - replace pumps vs rebuild, etc.

Apologies if I was somewhat hyperbolic, but there was certainly a kernal of truth.

Peter
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Old 06-15-2022, 08:59 AM   #100
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One of the things to consider in the single or twin engine discussion would be the Lindbergh theory. Crossing the Atlantic once in a single engine plane has a reasonably high expectation of success as far as engine failure is concerned, because it's once with an extremely low percentage of the engine's life expectancy. The more times you do it and the greater the engine's percentage of life expectancy, the more likely it is that you will die.

To extrapolate this to boats:
If you consider the percentage of time that a single engine failure would put you in a life threatening position, for the average forum person, the percentage is probably exceeding small. Now if you plan to cross oceans or spend much of your time in remote areas, that percentage of operation in riskier areas may exceed your comfort level.

For my cruising, I view life threatening engine failure at about 1 to 2 percent of underway cruising. I can accept that level of risk.

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