Older and 1st tier or newer but 2nd tier...

[ksanders]

Ksanders, you nailed it. Sorry if my question was ambiguous. However being so, the replies received went beyond what I was asking and turned out very helpful.

Best of luck on your search!

 

[BandB]

Yes, we on TF are polite when referring to lesser quality vessels as it is so much budget, care and mission related. The best of vessels (yes there are best vessels) in uncaring hands becomes an albatross. Lesser quality vessels (these exist too) in the right hands can be gems.

I think it's a huge mistake to start equating quality and price. Price can be geared to features. I'll speak to a couple of brands. Hatteras is quality and is pricey. They hold value through their lives. The quality isn't just finishing but build. On the other hand, I consider Bayliner to be quality while being inexpensive. The things missing in finer wall coverings, countertops, teak don't affect the quality of the boat itself. Their staying power, the relatively few problems their owners experience, is a sign of quality to me.

Seaworthiness is also often equated to quality and that can equally be misleading. If it's a poor match to needs, then that is a problem. An element of quality is appropriateness for purpose. Nordhavn would be lousy quality if the purpose and use is only ICW or the TN River.

 

[Codger2]

I'm guessin' he is referrin' to the newer all electronic engines as compared to the older mechanical diesels. As a firm believer in KISS, I'd stick with the all mechanical engines.

I agree!

 

[sunchaser]

I think it's a huge mistake to start equating quality and price. Price can be geared to features. .

Please note, I said nothing about price, you did just now.

But while on that subject, an out the door price on a SeaRay 40 footer rivals that of an American Tug. Check the market value after 5 years. Stunning reversal of fortunes. This is an interesting conundrum and oft repeated dilemma in the boating world. Or how about resale of a steel hulled 70 footer vs an FRP vessel of same size and age? And horror of horrors, a 115 foot Al Broward vs the same year and size FRP OA?

The list of yacht economic disasters is quite long, especially when buying new.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Sunchaser,
Very good post. So good it's worth reading several times.
But some of that is boat type and/or style.

Most boats have drains but few have scuppers.
Most yachting types use fenders so rub rails are'nt a high priority like for a commercial craft.
Vents are frequently a style issue maybe not quality. But your example is great.
Most all deck hand railings are stout enough IMO.
Few will be able to tell how a cabin top to side joint is made.
And few here seem to care about a boat being top heavy.

And how many really care about quality? Many are only concerned about features. Just like car buyers. Galley up or down. Brand name engine. Thrusters. Low maintenance features. Ect ect. And I'm not even sure what you mean "screwed and glued" or "seamless joint". And I used to work in boat construction.

But the jist of what you say is golden. And one best learns what quality is by comparing boats and being observant. Cabin door hinges on boat A and on boat B. But one must beware of variations and what is considered quality. My boat universally is considered a quality boat but it has plastic windows. I don't think anyone's rejecting Willards for having plastic windows but from a center of gravity point it's a plus. I have no idea why Willard used plastic for windows. It's probably lexan though. Just the amount! of glass in many boats is almost horrifying to me. The whole aft cabin bulkhead being glass and glass door is probably high quality to boater A and cheap crap design to to boater B. But as everyone knows I lean toward quality design and will tollerate some bad or less than perfect building quality. If the propulsion and hull is high quality the carpet, windows and trim can slide a bit IMO. Quality has many faces like safety and appearance.

 

[ksanders]

Please note, I said nothing about price, you did just now.

But while on that subject, an out the door price on a SeaRay 40 footer rivals that of an American Tug. Check the market value after 5 years. Stunning reversal of fortunes. This is an interesting conundrum and oft repeated dilemma in the boating world. Or how about resale of a steel hulled 70 footer vs an FRP vessel of same size and age? And horror of horrors, a 115 foot Al Broward vs the same year and size FRP OA?

The list of yacht economic disasters is quite long, especially when buying new.

Or said another way...

Buying a 5 year old Sea Ray represents a significant value Vs the cost new price. Buying a 5 year old American tug you will pay nearly what a new one costs.

Both boats have approx the same cruising capability, in terms of where they can go. Both boats are well engineered and executed using modern materials.

Although the Sea Ray and the American tug both appeal to a different customer, they both share the same anchorages.

Both boats represent a good "vlaue" to their owners.

But... You are assuming that the Sea Ray has a lower resale price because of it's "quality", and the same for the higher resale price of the American Tug.

I would argue that 5 year resale price has little to do with quality and allot to do with how many units are on the market. Sea Ray builds allot of boats. How many does American Tug build? Not so many. Less supply, good demand says higher resale price.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

can't say I have ever seen this as a buying criteria unless it was a new /old unpowered hull. Then the tier question comes into play as to what specific tier engine can be used.
I think a more appropriate question would be do you want a mechanically or electronically controlled engine?
What are you looking for or trying to achieve? Do you have a dislike of tier 3 as opposed to tier 1? Tier4?

 

[NewbieFromNJ]

Aesthetics and creature comforts are on the list but not a priority, seaworthiness/safety is. Although I do not intend to cross oceans, I do intend to do a lot of coastal cruising with occasional jaunts to the Bahamas. There is no debate I will confront a weather situation that was not forecasted or an unfriendly inlet that I need to get into. So for example with a unavoidable following sea do I want aft sliding doors to the salon or doors that look like those on a destroyer? I would think the latter and I have seen both on trawlers. Just one of many things that cross my juvenile boating mind when looking at trawlers. Honored to have the advice that is shared here and plenty of time to do my due dilegence.

 

[ksanders]

Aesthetics and creature comforts are on the list but not a priority, seaworthiness/safety is. Although I do not intend to cross oceans, I do intend to do a lot of coastal cruising with occasional jaunts to the Bahamas. There is no debate I will confront a weather situation that was not forecasted or an unfriendly inlet that I need to get into. So for example with a unavoidable following sea do I want aft sliding doors to the salon or doors that look like those on a destroyer? I would think the latter and I have seen both on trawlers. Just one of many things that cross my juvenile boating mind when looking at trawlers. Honored to have the advice that is shared here and plenty of time to do my due dilegence.

Yes you are going to occasionally run into larger seas than forecast.
Just so you understand... if you are reasonable in picking weather to go out in, whatever you run into is not going to sink your boat.

As far as things like a destroyer type door vs a sliding door for Coastal cruising... Get what you feel comfortable with of course, but a destroyer door is 100% unnecessary in a Coastal Cruiser.

I would argue that for Coastal Cruising Asthetics and more so Creature Comforts are the complete priority. Whatever boat you choose within reason will be perfectly safe for Coastal Cruising.

 

[NewbieFromNJ]

inlets

What a about entering a shallow inlet with an outgoing tide and easterly onshore winds (on the east coast). Just trying to prepare for worse case scenarios. And yes I understand if you plan properly you can avoid these situations but what if it's an emergency (ie medical). I want the right boat for this even though it may never become reality. Am I being overly cautious?

 

[ranger58sb]

Am I being overly cautious?

Yes.

And no.



I wouldn't necessarily mind a destroyer. (I keep looking for ways to mount a cannon on our Suburban for urban travel, but I'd still have to figure out a debris management system.)

But then again, all the boating features that we'd actually use more often aren't always available on destroyers... and there's that pesky cost thing.

You'll want to be boating in the vessel in which you feel safe, so keep going there.

But at the same time, you'll want a boat that fulfills the rest of your dreams too. A boat that's mission-oriented.

The trade-offs will make themselves known to you... at about the same time your boat selects you as its next owner.

-Chris

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. NJ. I'll present another "emergency". You're in Hawke Channel and you have to get into Islamorada. It's low tide but your boat draws 4'. Clearance is 3'....Or let's say you've thought of that and your boat draws 2' but sucks in a beam sea causing everyone aboard to be seasick every time you go out. Yes, you're being overly cautious. One can plan down to the micron and still Murphy drops in out of nowhere. A little bit of fear and respect for the sea is a good thing but too much and you'll never leave the dock and end up with a floating condo. A dirt condo is probably cheaper.

 

[O C Diver]

The OP raised an interesting question. For near coastal cruising, the tier 1 versus tier 2 may be much less of an issue in performance. However, when buying used, the difference may be come more significant in the quality of all the components. To make a comparison, in housing construction there is builders grade and then several steps above. How quickly you have to replace patio doors, screen doors, door hardware, door closers, switches, outlets, faucets, HVAC, appliances, flooring, windows, shingles, guttering, and many other things, is based on the quality of the components. On 20 year old boats, I'm sure some are far more maintenance intensive based on builder grade components.

Listing builders who are (IMO) in tier 2 will only lead to hurt feelings. So I'll let the OP draw the line for himself.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

What a about entering a shallow inlet with an outgoing tide and easterly onshore winds (on the east coast). Just trying to prepare for worse case scenarios. And yes I understand if you plan properly you can avoid these situations but what if it's an emergency (ie medical). I want the right boat for this even though it may never become reality. Am I being overly cautious?

If you have a medical emergency on the east coast with a breaking inlet...first you should have called the USCG long before you got to the breaking inlet. Their speed and craft will take care of the emergency much better than you.

Second, the most seaworthy boat in the world will roll over in a really bad inlet so you will have multiple medical emergencies if you even try it. The seaworthy one might not sink...but there may be no one on board that can keep driving it.

Unless you got caught in usually very predictable bad weather, the breaking inlets you would normally run aren't about seaworthiness anyhow. It's more about handling and not all boats with destroyer (watertight) doors handle worth a dang for running inlets.

 

[NewbieFromNJ]

That is the tradeoff. Some will say that if you are undecided about leaving the dock (ie weather conditions), don't leave the dock. But the more confidence in your boat the more you will be swayed to leave that dock. I want that boat that will give me that confidence within reason of course. Ah i think I'm may be over thinking this whole thing, I need to digest and rethink. Thanks again to all with your comments. Who knows I may end up in a pontoon boat in a lake. This journey can make you seasick before even leaving the dock. Forward I go................

 

[ksanders]

What a about entering a shallow inlet with an outgoing tide and easterly onshore winds (on the east coast). Just trying to prepare for worse case scenarios. And yes I understand if you plan properly you can avoid these situations but what if it's an emergency (ie medical). I want the right boat for this even though it may never become reality. Am I being overly cautious?

I think so, but it's up to you.

 

[Waywego]

What a about entering a shallow inlet with an outgoing tide and easterly onshore winds (on the east coast). Just trying to prepare for worse case scenarios. And yes I understand if you plan properly you can avoid these situations but what if it's an emergency (ie medical). I want the right boat for this even though it may never become reality. Am I being overly cautious?

There are so many tradeoffs that can be made. A trawler with a displacement hull might be better in rough seas but a faster boat might avoid them, etc.

My thought is that experience and skills are more important in avoiding dangerous situations and dealing with them if you are not able to. The boat is one variable, but not the most important one.

 

[BruceK]

....Here is a starter and debate making teaser in my 15 second quality look - are the air intakes on the side of the hull vs inboard away from salt spray. The list goes on to include 30 second things like beefy rub rails, is the cabin top tied to the cabin sides screwed and glued or a seamless joint, are deck hand railings stout, do the decks have good sized scuppers? After 45 seconds does the boat appear top heavy with all sorts of crap up top? At 55 seconds I have by now noted noted the anchor and windlass.

In one minute my mind starts to sense builders intent and presumed quality. But, not necessarily owner's care which as oft mentioned becomes really important as doors opened and innards exposed.

The quality issue is quite simple if one remembers a Supreme Court justice saying, regarding the legal definition of pornography, "I will know when I see it."

Lots of experience behind that post.
Last para reminds me of another Judge struggling with a definition :"It`s like a hippopotamus,hard to describe but if you see one, you`ll know what it is.
To the OP,I don`t believe you are overthinking this or overly cautious. As you see more boats, T1 & 2, it will get clearer and easier. Having 2 boats that interest you, comparing the + & - qualities of each(even write them down) helps focus, and choice.

 

[dhays]

That is the tradeoff. Some will say that if you are undecided about leaving the dock (ie weather conditions), don't leave the dock. But the more confidence in your boat the more you will be swayed to leave that dock. I want that boat that will give me that confidence within reason of course. Ah i think I'm may be over thinking this whole thing, I need to digest and rethink. Thanks again to all with your comments. Who knows I may end up in a pontoon boat in a lake. This journey can make you seasick before even leaving the dock. Forward I go................

I am new to this whole power boat thing. Many here have mentioned something that I have found to be true for me even in the short time that I have owned my boat. "The boat can handle more seas/weather than you can."

I have been out in conditions that I found very unpleasant. The boat seemed just time, but I wasn't enjoying it. I will endeavor to avoid those conditions in the future. So I think that most any boat you chose will be find for the conditions which you would chose to go out it.

In the sailing world, there is always an argument about "blue water" boats versus coastal cruisers. What it usually comes down to is a "blue water" boat is one that you would be comfortable taking out into the ocean beyond the ability to forecast conditions. It doesn't sound to me as if you will be in waters where you can't get a decent forecast for the conditions you are likely to encounter.

Nothing wrong with buying a boat that can handle more severe weather, however there will be a lot of trade offs. Only you can decide if it will be worth it. This has nothing to do with build quality but with design.

 

[Ken E.]

The confusion comes from the fact that engine makers.....Cummins, Cat, Deere, etc.......make their products to comply with certain federal emissions rules, called tiers. As the years go by, the rules become more stringent and the tier number goes up. But I don't think that's what the OP meant.....I think he means a quality tier level for boats, in a comparative sense. Maybe the OP will help us out with what he's asking for.

 

[BandB]

What a about entering a shallow inlet with an outgoing tide and easterly onshore winds (on the east coast). Just trying to prepare for worse case scenarios. And yes I understand if you plan properly you can avoid these situations but what if it's an emergency (ie medical). I want the right boat for this even though it may never become reality. Am I being overly cautious?

Yes, but that's not bad in a newbie. You're thinking and learning. It only hurts if then you let it stand in your way. In your hypothetical, the boat you're on, whatever it is, can probably handle the conditions. The real key is can you?

Curious as to how much medical emergencies concern you? If they do to a great level, then I'd recommend some courses. At the least, a medical first aid provider course. Potentially even a medical person in charge course. If you're cruising long periods away from land then your medical kit on board becomes important. Also, calling for assistance earlier, not later.

Go for safety, but don't obsess over finding the perfect boat. It can't be done.

 

[psneeld]

The absolute worst thing a newbie can think is that a "seaworthy" boat will make up for inexperience or complacency.

A stellar skipper can save a wreck...not the other way around.


Aside....90% at least...of the trawler owners I know will never venture out in conditions anywhere near what the boat can handle...just too uncomfortable.


Experience allows you to plan for conditions and emergencies that are way less boat dependent than skipper dependent.

 

[markpierce]

Purchased my current boat new in 2010/2011 direct from the builder for under $300K, including shipping fees and use and import taxes. Can't be done now, however.

 

[NewbieFromNJ]

I agree there is no substitute for experience but you cannot tell me for example that some boats aren't less susceptible to broaching in following seas than others. This should probably be discussed as a separate threat but my point is there are some boats that are easier to handle in rough seas than others.

 

[psneeld]

I agree there is no substitute for experience but you cannot tell me for example that some boats aren't less susceptible to broaching in following seas than others. This should probably be discussed as a separate threat but my point is there are some boats that are easier to handle in rough seas than others.

True but I posted before or inferred...design has nothing to do with cost...it would be all about design...

Try and find a nice coastal cruiser that even faintly resembles a US or any other country's Coast Guard motor surf boat.

Ran breaking inlets towing boats as an assistance towing captain for the last 14 years in NJ...look up Corsons Inlet, Townsends Inlet and Hereford Inlet. None are charted inlets...yet that was my area. (From just north of Sea Isle City to Just south of Stone Harbor).

 

[sunchaser]

True but I posted before or inferred...design has nothing to do with cost...it would be all about design...

Try and find a nice coastal cruiser that even faintly resembles a US or any other country's Coast Guard motor surf boat.

Ran breaking inlets towing boats as an assistance towing captain for the last 14 years in NJ...look up Corsons Inlet, Townsends Inlet and Hereford Inlet. None are charted inlets...yet that was my area. (From just north of Sea Isle City to Just south of Stone Harbor).

PSN

You sit near the head of the class for TF skippers with knowledge experience and boating skills fitting the types of vessels we lust after or own. This preamble aside, what motor vessel in the 40 to 50 foot range would you select given the following criteria:

• Cost, used, around $500 K tops
• FRP or cold molded
• Single or twins doesn't matter
• Suitable instruments already onboard
• No material upgrades required
• Cruise speed and resultant hull type up to you
• Blue water capable and range not necessary but would be OK if so typed

 

[ranger58sb]

I agree there is no substitute for experience but you cannot tell me for example that some boats aren't less susceptible to broaching in following seas than others. This should probably be discussed as a separate threat but my point is there are some boats that are easier to handle in rough seas than others.

That can be true, but...

A) There are following seas, and then there are FOLLOWING SEAS. And sometimes there are viable mitigation techniques (stay home, tack, change immediate destinations, etc.).

B) Difficult handling in following seas are often more about boat design, versus boat quality. Sometimes that's about hull form, especially stern/transom design (and the naval architects here can talk about that better than I can). Sometimes it's about power; for example some boats can use more power to "ride the surf" (so to speak) sort-of effectively. Latter becomes not just about design, but operator skills. Again, not directly associated with build quality (assuming a reasonably well-found boat in the first place).

-Chris

 

[psneeld]

PSN


You sit near the head of the class for TF skippers with knowledge experience and boating skills fitting the types of vessels we lust after or own. This preamble aside, what motor vessel in the 40 to 50 foot range would you select given the following criteria:

• Cost, used, around $500 K tops
• FRP or cold molded
• Single or twins doesn't matter
• Suitable instruments already onboard
• No material upgrades required
• Cruise speed and resultant hull type up to you
• Blue water capable and range not necessary but would be OK if so typed

The Bluewater capable feature starts to narrow that field quite a bit.

I know what good features are, but to tell the truth, most of those newer vessels I haven't been on to really say. I don't run in that crowd much to get to look.

Also the requirements of used, the price tag, and no immaterial upgrades to be made....probably none. Have never seen a production boat under that price that I would consider what I would want/have.

Not being picky, just haven't seen one with all those criteria.

Then again, I am never on yachtworld dreaming...or even looking too much at all the links people provide. I am rarely in the interesting boats thread.

I pretty much know my destiny....have seen the world as much as I need to...no real dreams...just a couple cruises to the north and Bahamas will round out my dreams.

You have to realize I never really worked....just been on or over the water since my 20s.

 

[alormaria]

There are no bad boats, just bad skippers.

 

[NewbieFromNJ]

Updated avatar

Iv'e updated my avatar to reflect my boating experience. Please keep this in mind when responding to my sometimes juvenile boating comments.