Now I see why liveaboards get a bad rep

[Gdavid]

Playing loud music is anti-nautical. Bells and horns are nautical.

Are halyards slapping on masts nautical?

 

[OldDan1943]

Are halyards slapping on masts nautical?

Dont get me started on halyards slapping and rigging whistling.

 

[tiltrider1]

Halyards slapping on the mast is poor seaman ship. It shows the owner lacks situational awareness.

 

[Gdavid]

Halyards slapping on the mast is poor seaman ship. It shows the owner lacks situational awareness.

I can ignore it in most cases but there have been a couple of times where it made sleep impossible and I took it upon myself to board the offending vessel, loosen the halyard, flip it around a spreader and re-tension. In all cases, the vessel was unattended and I'm certain if someone had been aboard, they wouldn't have been able to sleep either. I had a clear conscious and if questioned I would explain that I saved the vessel from being scuttled from the next guy to come along with less patience than me.

 

[Codger2]

ROFLMAO! Well said...

...and blowboaters are the cheapest at the restaurant/bar/fuel dock/marina/chandlery!

Very funny & in my personal experience, not that far from the truth either!

 

[Nomad Willy]

Moved my rig to her new summer spot at a marina that allows liveaboards,the marina and facilities are great,but there are a handful of derelict sailboats that are liveaboard as well,although I haven't spoken with them yet and more than likey will try to keep it that way,their boats are gross,I would imagine the inside is even worse,I pride myself in keeping my Willard ship shape,inside and out and you wouldn't even know it's a liveaboard by looking at it,a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us respectable Mariners

You say their boats are “gross”.
Well you’re probably right but many liveaboard boats are tidy and clean inside. And if you drive around where the income level is the same as (many/most?) people in houses the yards will be just as un-tidy and dirty.
But the Marina owners have the say in the matter. It’s their marina.

I saw/experienced sone liveaboards in Alaska that were just plain in-tollerable. Three (two big one small) dogs that barked and made a hell-of a ruckus every time a person walked by the boat. So when the liveaboards get bad enough that they stink or make loud noises I would object too.

But I wouldn’t wann’a be next to a guy that has a football game on loud either. Or what passes for music these days and there are others. Right now I’ve got a single woman (very friendly too) almost next to our boat. She’s kind of hippy like but she’s fine. But I don’t think “respectability” should be necessarily a pre-requisite for liveaboard status. But as you say “gross” .. not so much.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. NW. "...what passes for music these days..." WHAT??? You just haven't seen the light, brother.

 

[SteveK]

This marina did not permit live aboards. They had a rule we had to be off the boat for at least 3-4 hours off the boat each week. I would go food shopping and parts buying. That took more than 3-4 hours.

Based upon the management experience with live aboards, they have looked the other way. The latest copy of condo rule do not address live aboard. It does say, no laundry hanging.

Per not paying property tax? I own 2 slips and yes, property taxes plus monthly condo fees on 2 slips. Lemme tell you, that aint cheap.

I was informed, I could not own more than 3 slips. LOL I guess they dont want me to establish a marina inside this marina.
There are only 100 slips in this marina. Wanna buy a slip? You will be looking middle 6 figures for a 75ft slip. 50ft slip, low 6 figures.

Wonder if more slips will go to owned. A shortage of slips which may drive it in that direction. Hope not. I suppose if you own it and then also pay a fee to maintain it, you most likely have a good reason.

 

[OldDan1943]

Wonder if more slips will go to owned. A shortage of slips which may drive it in that direction. Hope not. I suppose if you own it and then also pay a fee to maintain it, you most likely have a good reason.

In reality, we dont really own the slip. We do own the submerged land. We are a boat condo association. Dock repair, pilings, electrical, water, pump outs, golf carts etc are all maintained by the association and VERY attentive dock master and staff.

Rental fees are LOTS. I have had folks want to rent short time, the fee for my 75ft is over $3,500/month plus electric, pump outs are $20 per.

I sort of feel bad about that price so I have rented for $500 cash and expensive bottle of cognac. Then I raised rent to $1000/month cash. The folks in the office were not happy with me. LOL Hey, $1000/months is better than leaving it vacant.

 

[BandB]

But I wouldn’t wann’a be next to a guy that has a football game on loud either. Or what passes for music these days and there are others. Right now I’ve got a single woman (very friendly too) almost next to our boat. She’s kind of hippy like but she’s fine. But I don’t think “respectability” should be necessarily a pre-requisite for liveaboard status. But as you say “gross” .. not so much.

Wifey B: They might not want to be next to your excuse for music.

It's not taste in music or taste in television, it's being courteous. To me, that says not too loud and then at 9:00 pm it says "off." I go by a 9:00 PM to 7:00 AM kind of rule. Now still I do feel bad but do also sometimes leave early and I'm sure it disturbs some but that's a legitimate marina activity in my mind. We try to leave at first light.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Ms. WB. First light?

 

[BandB]

Greetings,
Ms. WB. First light?

Wifey B: Not Frankenstein or even RTF.

However, Nautical Twilight....and no later than Civil Twilight...but don't aim for Astronomical Twilight.

Today Sunrise in FLL (Fort Lauderdale) was 6:36.

Astronomical twilight was 5:12

Nautical twilight was 5:42

Civil twilight was 6:12.

On the lakes we often had rules regarding different operation that referred to 30 minutes before Sunrise and 30 after Sunset because you still could see well. Things like water skiing. The reality though is most of the time you can see at Nautical twilight which is often close to an hour before sunrise, so we like to get moving by then. Unfortunately, when we do so, that means people stirring around the boat before 5:30 AM. We try to advise the night before and we don't move that early too often, just when a long day ahead.

And I refuse to laugh at your Frankenstein joke.

 

[Kintala]

Sailing cruisers are fine people who know the value of maintaining their boats.

What drives me crazy are the people who buy a junk boat, don’t even try to fix it up and expect to live on it for free. They anchor where ever it’s free, clog up dinghy docks, and take free water. Since they never dock the boat, you know their sewage is going into the anchorage. Their attitude is the wind is free and everything else should be. Their boats are eye sores that usually end up sunk and abandoned for the local community to deal with.

It happens with power boats too, but is much more common with sailboats.

One thing I would like to point out and then I'll let the discussion rest. In the six years we cruised full time, it was absolutely astonishing and heartbreaking to see the amount of those "derelict" boats out there that were being occupied by veterans of the US armed forces. So many of our veterans are broke, homeless, in need of medical and mental health care, and have found a cheap sailboat (and, yes, free water) the only way to survive. We met them in every state we cruised in. We chatted with a couple of them in the Charleston, SC anchorage once and my heart hurts every time I think about them. I'm not denying that there are some true "bums" out there on the water, but before you go all judgmental on these folks, it might be beneficial to learn about their situation. It just might have been one of the many folks that gave up their own profitable, healthy life to assure you the freedom to take your boat wherever you want to go.

 

[OldDan1943]

Sometimes, for some people, living on an old boat is one step above living on the street or living in the woods.
An observation: so many times vets have a difficult time to re-acclimating.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Ms. WB. No joke.

Edit: Messrs K & OD. That's exactly my point. Judging a person by the clothes they wear, the car they drive OR the boat they are living on says more about you than the person you're judging.

 

[BandB]

One thing I would like to point out and then I'll let the discussion rest. In the six years we cruised full time, it was absolutely astonishing and heartbreaking to see the amount of those "derelict" boats out there that were being occupied by veterans of the US armed forces. So many of our veterans are broke, homeless, in need of medical and mental health care, and have found a cheap sailboat (and, yes, free water) the only way to survive. We met them in every state we cruised in. We chatted with a couple of them in the Charleston, SC anchorage once and my heart hurts every time I think about them. I'm not denying that there are some true "bums" out there on the water, but before you go all judgmental on these folks, it might be beneficial to learn about their situation. It just might have been one of the many folks that gave up their own profitable, healthy life to assure you the freedom to take your boat wherever you want to go.

Wifey B: Same thing among homeless on land. We promise kids the world if they'll just sign the paper but the world we give them is one they'll never recover from, one of injury, one of seeing things they couldn't imagine, one of mental health issues on top of the physical ones, then we bring them home, often as pariahs (think Vietnam Vets and nearly all since) and we provide lousy treatment for their physical issues and absolutely neglect for their mental health issues. We sell them Disneyland and give them a lifelong house of horrors.

It's not that way for all but for most of you who served you have no idea how it's changed over the decades. After WW II and even Korea, they were welcomed home with praise and honor. I hate nearly everything about the military structure and all the wars and the lies to young men and the treatment of our soldiers while serving and after, but I love those who serve and am infuriated at how poorly we treat them after they do. It's inhumane. I can oppose the war and still love those who fought it.

As to giving up profitable lives, most didn't, but they gave up healthy lives. They gave up a life they can never get back. You don't unlive those times. They stay with you forever. The ones hurt worst were the ones who were the poorest and least educated before and saw the military as hope and promise for a future they didn't otherwise envision. It was for way too many a mirage.

Sorry to rant but Kintala hit on a critical point and I felt I had to respond. Just know I'm not at all disrespecting the many here who gave so much, but I'm disrespecting us and our government for not taking care of those who serve and it's definitely not political as we've been consistently horrible and neglectful no matter how much anyone said they cared.

 

[OldDan1943]

The nicest thing you can say to a vet is, "Thank you for your service", while shaking their hand. I am personally stumped on how to reply. I usually say, "I am glad I was able to serve."
I was in the US Navy, spent most of my time on nuclear subs. Clean sheet and 3 meals a day. When the Captain (4 strips) said "Charge", he was right with us on the boat. SMILE
I really do feel sorry for the 'ground pounder'. They had it rough, patrols at night and day, their camps attacked over and over, even in camp the food sucked, I have been told. I give them most of the credit. Fighting with one hand behind their back aka, "rules of engagement."
Air force, general considered their flying time as 'office work', back by 5pm and cocktail hour. TEASE

And afterwards, sneaking back into the US, no parade until many years later.

I'm going to shut up and if the moderator see fit, he may remove this with my blessing.

 

[psneeld]

The military is just a cross section of society.


From boot camp to flag officer level you have everything from the cream to the dregs.


A chunk of the military should have gone to prison over boot camp but that's not how it always works out.


So seeing all kinds of mindsets leaving the military after being trained in all kinds of things and experiencing all kinds of things might have changed them good or bad, but for the most part...it trained them, not changed them.


All who wear the uniform are not saints or heroes....but as long as they served honorably...a thanks you for your service is sufficient unless you now more about them.


What they turn into after the service can be a shame, and yes the system can chew them up and spit them out, but society can do that to you too.


While the military is different, in many ways it isn't either.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Joe Manchin lives on a boat in DC.

 

[Hippocampus]

Think this thread fails to consider a large (perhaps the largest) group of liveaboards. These are full time cruisers. They encompass multiple activities. Be it snowbirding up and down the ICW or seasonal migration from Caribbean/Maine or Caribbean/Mediterranean or those taking their time doing the clock. They are at all levels of resources from fixed income retirees to those 4 Immarsat/KVH dome boats running empires remotely.
From this thread they seem invisible to many. Although there’s a home port on the back they likely haven’t seen it in months or maybe years. If they’re in your marina it’s as brief transients so not very apparent. They’ve learned to be the grass not a tree in a storm. Low profile means less security risk (kidnapping, targeted crime) for the rich and less governmental hassles and expense for the average Joe. It’s very rare they’re in a slip.
In the regions I cruise they are the overwhelming majority of liveaboards. They are not locked to a fixed location due to the demands of work or lack of resources. Many are still pursuing a career. Either doing the work remotely or as consultants/outside contractors taking sabbaticals from the boat to restock the cruising kitty.
In short suspect the vast majority of liveaboards (at least on the US east coast, Caribbean, Bahamas, loop and ICW) are not recognizable as such. There are multiple advantages to never being identified as a liveaboard. Multiple reasons from not letting the wrench you hired know that you’re going to be gone next week to not being hassled by arbitrary rules. Most rapidly realize this and keep as low a profile as possible. If asked by a governmental official we’re a “vessel in transit” including a LEO or C&I. If asked by a tech or wrench answer was “we’ll be here for quite awhile “. If asked by someone passing by on a dock or dinghy” we’re documented there for taxes… we’re here now”. Our behavior seems fairly typical. Try to be invisible.

 

[Gdavid]

Think this thread fails to consider a large (perhaps the largest) group of liveaboards. These are full time cruisers. They encompass multiple activities. Be it snowbirding up and down the ICW or seasonal migration from Caribbean/Maine or Caribbean/Mediterranean or those taking their time doing the clock. They are at all levels of resources from fixed income retirees to those 4 Immarsat/KVH dome boats running empires remotely.
From this thread they seem invisible to many. Although there’s a home port on the back they likely haven’t seen it in months or maybe years. If they’re in your marina it’s as brief transients so not very apparent. They’ve learned to be the grass not a tree in a storm. Low profile means less security risk (kidnapping, targeted crime) for the rich and less governmental hassles and expense for the average Joe. It’s very rare they’re in a slip.
In the regions I cruise they are the overwhelming majority of liveaboards. They are not locked to a fixed location due to the demands of work or lack of resources. Many are still pursuing a career. Either doing the work remotely or as consultants/outside contractors taking sabbaticals from the boat to restock the cruising kitty.
In short suspect the vast majority of liveaboards (at least on the US east coast, Caribbean, Bahamas, loop and ICW) are not recognizable as such. There are multiple advantages to never being identified as a liveaboard. Most rapidly realize this and keep as low a profile as possible.

Most people consider full time cruisers a a separate group rather than a subset of liveaboards. Marinas consider them separately, especially in light that there are many marinas that do not allow any liveaboards but accept transient boaters on a regular basis, which are assumed to to be living aboard throughout their stay.

Many marinas tend to locate the transients in designated areas, easy to access which are less likely to disturb/hit or impact the annual slip holders. The are far less likely to be derelicts because they are paying significant dockage fees and their vessels are in frequent use, there can be exceptions of course but the derelicts are far more likely to anchor.

 

[Hippocampus]

Agree a different subset but a interesting use of language. This group lives full time on their boats. Would seem they are living aboard.
Then there’s a host of 1/2 to 10m $ boats in the slips along downtown Boston, in the yacht basin or western tip of Manhattan or 23rd St in NYC and other cities which are residences as well with people living aboard. These boats rarely move.
My point being, suspect you like me, find delerict and abandoned boats a eyesore and environmental hazard but continue to believe they should be called what they are - derelict or abandoned boats - not liveaboards. This might go along way to have people not be biased against actual decent liveaboards which are the majority. Totally distorted use of language to use liveaboard and mean derelict.

 

[psneeld]

In Florida, it is recommended that you use the term of 'Full time cruiser" as the term "liveaboard" has a legal definition that places restrictions on you you don't want as a full time cruiser. Based on recent Georgia restrictions which previously regulated liveaboards....I think it best to always follow the guidance.


https://southwindsmagazine.com/full-time-cruisers-liveaboards/



n 2009 Florida passed an anchoring law making the words more significant for cruisers. “Liveaboards” are more narrowly defined in the law and “cruisers” who “reside on and move their boats are not considered liveaboards.” This means that local communities can easily determine the difference between cruisers and live-aboards—and another major change in the law says that “municipalities may not enforce any ordinance regulating anchoring—other than liveaboards—outside of marked mooring fields.” With this new narrowing of the definition of “liveaboards,” cruisers no longer have to worry about being included in a category where they can be restricted from anchoring in certain areas. These two items together are a major step in more rights for cruisers.

 

[Hippocampus]

Thanks. Learned something today.

 

[cat38skip]

Marina Standards

Going back to the original post, maybe the issue is more the fault of the marina, than the boaters. took care of deferred

A lot of the marina rules I have read say something like - Vessels are to be maintained in good mechanical and aesthetic condition at all times.

Jim

It seems that many marinas are more interested in the income, profits and cash flow than the aesthetics. Our marina, last year, established standards that require all vessels be in navigable condition and must pass an annual inspection to determine their seaworthiness. Engines running, bilge pumps working, A/C electrical systems without polarity issues... All docks and dock fingers must be accessible to first responders, Many boats vacated their slips or were evicted, many owners got busy and took care of deferred maintenance. Things are looking up. Lots of vacancies though