North West Passage

[David Ess]

Has anyone transited the NWP in the past few years? As we research it as one of our bucket list items, we're seeing some saying you need like 30-40 of various permits and licences, etc, even though its an international waterway. If thats even true, I guess that would put a lot of people off, including us. Anybody up to date on that?

 

[psneeld]

Something just as important as permits..... is a bit of high latitude, ice experience.


A lot of people may not consider actual experience that big of a deal, but after 23 years USCG experience with all kinds of boating and rescue experiences....and 3 trips to the arctic and 1 to Antarctica...it is definitely an extreme of boating worthy of getting real experience/sailing with someone who has it.

 

[David Ess]

Something just as important as permits..... is a bit of high latitude, ice experience.

For sure, and one of us has that. But even he says that if there is a lot of burocratic hassle from various Canadian agencies, (and even eskimos tribes!), we shouldnt even bother. Youre supposed to be able to transit international waterways.

 

[rslifkin]

It can be done, but personally, that wouldn't be all that high on my list of places to go. I can think of a whole heck of a lot of places with a better "stuff to see / experience / enjoy vs effort" ratio that would make sense to do first.

 

[caltexflanc]

A Canadian rancher did it in a Diesel Duck a few years ago as part of a circumnavigation. I'm sure his story is around here somewhere or could be found with alittle web searching.

 

[David Ess]

It can be done, but personally, that wouldn't be all that high on my list of places to go. I can think of a whole heck of a lot of places with a better "stuff to see / experience / enjoy vs effort" ratio that would make sense to do first.

Fair enough, but its very beautiful up there according to accounts and fotos. Its more a matter of having to get 30 or 40 licences....and for an international waterway. Its like piracy.

 

[David Ess]

A Canadian rancher did it in a Diesel Duck a few years ago as part of a circumnavigation. I'm sure his story is around here somewhere or could be found with alittle web searching.

Thanks...we read all we can find.

 

[caltexflanc]

Here you go

Northwest Passage 2014: I remember: M/V IDLEWILD (2005NWP) on a circumnavigation that included never before unique portages by a 57' boat

 

[David Ess]

Here you go

Northwest Passage 2014: I remember: M/V IDLEWILD (2005NWP) on a circumnavigation that included never before unique portages by a 57' boat

Thanks! Will read after luncheon.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Fair enough, but its very beautiful up there according to accounts and fotos. Its more a matter of having to get 30 or 40 licences....and for an international waterway. Its like piracy.

Unless you get way up there it's not international waters. Have a look at the attached and you'll see that you have to go very far north to be out of Canada's territorial waters and into what might be considered international waters. On the eastern part you will need to be about 83 degrees north latitude. Also attached is one version of the NW Passage route. Consider that if you need supplies or support of any kind you will be in Canadian waters. I don't know if you'll need 30 - 40 permits but you won't be in international waters for much of the passage. You may have to get permissions from first nations. Canada has a lot of respect for and support of first nation's claims.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. DE. That would be a disputed "international waterway".


https://www.oktlaw.com/sovereignty-begins-at-home-inuit-and-the-northwest-passage/

 

[rslifkin]

They also don't want just anyone wandering around up there without being prepared. It's very remote and SAR up there is a big deal.

 

[psneeld]

I don't see any part of the passage that is more than 24 miles wide (2x12). Pretty hard to enforce international waters when it doesn't really meet our standards and there is not a legal agreement tat it is so.

 

[mvweebles]

Well done YouTube documentary from 2019.

This does not look like a particularly arduous passage but does require a stout hull and reliable systems. The window for passage is extremely short so an equipment failure of consequence could really jam-up the passage. It's a bit binary - either you hit acceptable weather, or you don't. Your equipment is reliable or it isn't. The narrator meets someone who is on their second try. A few years earlier on an identical boat, the guy got iced-in and his boat was crushed by the ice.

Peter

 

[David Ess]

Greetings,
Mr. DE. That would be a disputed "international waterway".


https://www.oktlaw.com/sovereignty-begins-at-home-inuit-and-the-northwest-passage/

The US, Russia, China, forcstarters, do NOT recognize Canadas claims. They consider it international waters.

 

[MurrayM]

Thank you to Portage Bay, psneeld and RT for those gentle suggestions regarding sovereignty...calling the Northwest Passage international waters is akin to calling the ICW the same.

Also, you may want to brush up on your Inuit cultural knowledge/sensitivity.

 

[rslifkin]

The US, Russia, China, forcstarters, do NOT recognize Canadas claims. They consider it international waters.

If I'm remembering correctly, the debate isn't so much about international waters or not, it's whether the right of innocent passage applies.

 

[David Ess]

Guys, thanks for the info. The OP was more about the issue of burocracy, not the dangers....we know about them, and theyre one of the reasons we like sturdy boats. Yachts go thru every year, and I think one of the accounts said in as little as 19 days.

 

[Chrisjs]

I would check out the story of HMS Terror before considering this trip!! And watch out for (big) polar bears!

 

[sunchaser]

The Russians are now moving large ship cargo, especially LNG destined for China, through vestiges of the NW Passage with new icebreakers keeping things opened up.

In 2009 Sprague Theobold on his 57' Nordhavn did the NW Passage making a great video of trip. Old Norwegian writings from around 700 BC suggest the vikings did it too, before the Little Ice Age and slow down (an oft occurring event in geologic time) of the Gulf Current sealed it up for about 1200 years. These types of historical hints are what prompted the British to offer huge sums to Captain Cook to find the NW Passage.

 

[David Ess]

Thank you to Portage Bay, psneeld and RT for those gentle suggestions regarding sovereignty...calling the Northwest Passage international waters is akin to calling the ICW the same.

Also, you may want to brush up on your Inuit cultural knowledge/sensitivity.

The US calls it an international waterway. So do others. Nobody says the ICW is......false analogy.

 

[David Ess]

They also don't want just anyone wandering around up there without being prepared. It's very remote and SAR up there is a big deal.

We're supposed to be able to "wander around" international waters.

 

[David Ess]

I would check out the story of HMS Terror before considering this trip!! And watch out for (big) polar bears!

Thanks, but a ship from 1813 isnt too relevant. All the yachts that go thru every year have big advantages. The main one being.......we know know where it is....Franklin didnt.

 

[Portage_Bay]

The US, Russia, China, forcstarters, do NOT recognize Canadas claims. They consider it international waters.

That dispute is over Canada's claim to all areas to the north pole north of Canada's historically established northern boundary.

That is not really relevant to the discussion of the Northwest Passage route that would be followed by most vessels, especially pleasure boats. That route goes through Canada's islands to the north of the continental mainland. Those islands and waters are internationally recognized as Canada's.

See attached for a rough estimate of traveling north of Canada's lands and seas. Without any direct knowledge I'm thinking that will put you in lots of ice.

 

[David Ess]

That dispute is over Canada's claim to all areas to the north pole north of Canada's historically established northern boundary.

That is not really relevant to the discussion of the Northwest Passage route that would be followed by most vessels, especially pleasure boats. That route goes through Canada's islands to the north of the continental mainland. Those islands and waters are internationally recognized as Canada's.

See attached for a rough estimate of traveling north of Canada's lands and seas. Without any direct knowledge I'm thinking that will put you in lots of ice.

Wrong...the route your map shows , over Greenland, is NOT the NW passage. Look it up , even on wikipedia. They also mention how not only does the US, Russia and China say its internationsl, but also some european countries.

 

[David Ess]

Thank you to Portage Bay, psneeld and RT for those gentle suggestions regarding sovereignty...calling the Northwest Passage international waters is akin to calling the ICW the same.

Also, you may want to brush up on your Inuit cultural knowledge/sensitivity.

We dont need to "brush up" on people we will likely never meet or talk to. And if its teue that one has to get licences from eskimos to sail an international waterway....thats tantamount to a shakedown by pirates...so will avoid that area.

 

[mvweebles]

We dont need to "brush up" on people we will likely never meet or talk to. And if its teue that one has to get licences from eskimos to sail an international waterway....thats tantamount to a shakedown by pirates...so will avoid that area.

Nice. Sure hope you don't break down and need assistance......

Peter

 

[David Ess]

I would check out the story of HMS Terror before considering this trip!! And watch out for (big) polar bears!

A 1813 boat?

 

[psneeld]

Of course you know that you could be fogged in for a month and not see much beauty, not absolutely sure but GPS doesn't work well at high latitudes (limited or no WAAS), compass is tricky.... that's just a start.....

 

[David Ess]

Of course you know that you could be fogged in for a month and not see much beauty, not absolutely sure but GPS doesn't work well at high latitudes (limited or no WAAS), compass is tricky.... that's just a start.....

We know there can be a lot of fog.......butvmost boats dont even take a month to go thru. We just read of one yacht that did it in 19 days. Polar bears? Apparently they dontblike boarding boats with guys firing their flare guns at them.