Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

[Fletcher500]

Wayne, it’s always interesting to hear your perspectives as a long range cruiser.

Magento, I believe you mentioned earlier you like to fish? You may want to consider a 3 to 5 day (longer if you want) fishing trip out of San Diego. The crew will cook for you, gaff your fish, and fix things if they break, but it will allow you and and your wife to see what it’s like to be in an open ocean environment with swells and chop.

During these trips they can usually find shelter at night, but if it’s rough, you and your wife will need to keep yourself in your bunk at night by bracing with your legs and arms and will be lucky to get 1 to 2 hours of sleep on occasion. Have you ever done that?

Moving around a pitching/rolling deck for consecutive days is also tiring. After a rough multi day sport fishing trip as a deckhand and I was home, I would have to periodically put my hands up in the shower to brace myself. IE, you have to experience it, not read about it, to figure out if it’s something you both can handle.

I am still not sure from your posts if you and are wife don’t get seasick? I have seen people literally incapacitated from the affects.

I am bringing up the fishing charter route as an option because I have never boated in the PNW and aren’t most of the rentals up there in protected waters?

 

[Baker]

.....we already knew the boat we wanted to design with Dennis because we used our use case data throughout the 2+ year design process with Dennis to help us transform our visions into reality.

This use case document continues to be extremely valuable throughout the build process now and I would recommend that anyone setting out to find their own Goldilocks just right boat, be it new, used or custom built, spend some time to write down their version of such a use case and priorities document. While it is very time consuming and surprisingly difficult to put this all into text, I think it will prove to be time very well spent and in the end it will save a LOT of time and money in getting the next just right boat for you. It sure was for us.

A very interesting perspective and one that is applicable to any boat purchase. I have always said, the reason why thousands of boat sit unused in marinas is because the buyers/owners had a "dream". And that dream did not match up with reality. SO the boat sits....IOW, they bought the wrong boat. Or they were just being unrealistic to begin with. I remember when I bought a Catalina sailboat and some Scottish dock rat scoffed at my boat because it wasn't a "bluewater" boat...and I simply said I am not going bluewater cruising. He had a Tayana 37 that never left the dock. We went out multiple times a week. I have sailed Tayana 37s and they are from the ideal day/weekend boat.

Anyway, back to the quote above...excellent advice and a good exercise regardless of the type of boat one is acquiring!

 

[Magneto]

Wayne, it’s always interesting to hear your perspectives as a long range cruiser.

Magento, I believe you mentioned earlier you like to fish? You may want to consider a 3 to 5 day (longer if you want) fishing trip out of San Diego. The crew will cook for you, gaff your fish, and fix things if they break, but it will allow you and and your wife to see what it’s like to be in an open ocean environment with swells and chop.

During these trips they can usually find shelter at night, but if it’s rough, you and your wife will need to keep yourself in your bunk at night by bracing with your legs and arms and will be lucky to get 1 to 2 hours of sleep on occasion. Have you ever done that?

Moving around a pitching/rolling deck for consecutive days is also tiring. After a rough multi day sport fishing trip as a deckhand and I was home, I would have to periodically put my hands up in the shower to brace myself. IE, you have to experience it, not read about it, to figure out if it’s something you both can handle.

I am still not sure from your posts if you and are wife don’t get seasick? I have seen people literally incapacitated from the affects.

I am bringing up the fishing charter route as an option because I have never boated in the PNW and aren’t most of the rentals up there in protected waters?

My experience is deep sea fishing in the Gulf Stream off the coast of Port Canaveral Florida in fair to rough seas. Not overnight or extended time at sea. We both have spent many nights on our sailboat at protected anchor.
We both have gotten sea sick and know the feeling but got use to it.

Our plans are to charter extended trips in various waters. An example is our recent discussion with a charter in the Bahamas for 2-3 weeks. But last night's conversation was to look further into chartering Grey Wolf 2 in Scotland in coming years. The point is we will have a lot of sea time before we nail down our boat purchase.

My wife and I share the same stubborn dog determination to complete what we set out for. I use to work for Universal Studios and Disney Imagineering. I've programmed what others had dreamed and helped it become reality. I counsel people who see their limits instead of their possibilities. Anything is possible, it just takes time, money and determination.

We fully understand the type of people that are not cut out for this regardless of what they think they can do. There are friends and family that want to come but I would not want them there when things get bad and they will get bad. We are not one of them. My record is 99% of reaching every goal I've set out for. And this one started when I was a kid.

" I've never failed to hit a depth I've aimed for"

- The movie Armageddon

 

[Fletcher500]

Copy that. Rather than talking about boats, I figured the focus at your stage should be on whether you even have the ability to do it and to cross off basic things like whether you and your wife aren’t prone to seasickness. A protected harbor or one day fishing trip is a very different animal than being offshore in large swells and wind in regards to sea sickness, and some people never acclimate to it. I have seen it first hand.

I am also stubborn and always do what I say will do, and not just talk about it.

Good luck with your journey.

 

[Magneto]

Living at sea is a part of this discussion and I agree about getting the experience of this on various boats. But to keep this on topic, the focus is the best of the best boats for long range passage for living and comfort. The best for two people starting out in and to provide the safest way to enjoy comfortable long distance ocean cruising. And the consensus of what I have read here is the N, KK, and FPB/XPM.

I plan on giving each one these boats the martini test. In slight seas, I should not spill a drop while underway.

 

[Simi 60]

I plan on giving each one these boats the martini test. In slight seas, I should not spill a drop while underway.

Not much of a test.
Not a drop spilt on ours in those conditions and we don't have stabilisers or the price tag.

 

[Chrisjs]

The real martini test is how much you throw up after drinking the (non alcoholic) martini under rough conditions (eg 50 kt wind, 12 ft seas).

 

[Magneto]

The real martini test is how much you throw up after drinking the (non alcoholic) martini under rough conditions (eg 50 kt wind, 12 ft seas).

Ah...that would be rough seas and I would switch to beer.

 

[mcarthur]

One other person suggested power cats, and I'll reiterate it. There's no production boats around that would work, but there are many of non-production that are high quality one-offs. An example of how different they are, you may look at the travels of Domino. You may find that the concept gels...

 

[darkside]

As mcarthur suggests the Domino blog is an interesting read.
The Oct 27, 2018 post describes how the used speed to beat weather which is worth reading.
Available for sale if you want it https://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2009/malcolm-tennant-domino-20-3495698/

Or if you want a modern take (less sea worthy perhaps and more comfortable) then https://yachthub.com/list/boats-for-sale/used/power-boats/brady-17-5m-passagemaker-rehab/228005
Not an expedition passage maker but 3000nm at 8kn is OK. Also all but new at 300 hours.

Apologies for recalling the name of World Cruising Routes incorrectly, I was out on the boat for a few days...

 

[mvweebles]

And the consensus of what I have read here is the N, KK, and FPB/XPM.

I was the first one to say "none of the above - Dashew boat (FRP,, FPR, XRM, whatever)." I did so because your criteria suggested you planned to keep moving and stay at anchor when you were stopped. The Dashew designs are long, skinny, and short on accommodation as they have a buoyancy chamber in the front, an engine room in the back. If you plan to spend a lot of time in marinas, it's an expensive boat to operate.

She's built to pierce waves, not ride over them like a KK or Nordhavn. You have to buy into that is safe, and that speed is safe in order to buy into a FPR. It's not someone's first boat. 250nms days opens a lot of possibilities.

Bottom line: if you buy into fast-is-fun/safe, then put 250nm days as part of your criteria. The N57 is capable of 230 nm days (9-ish kts on average) which is close enough, though it needs to slow down in headseas (the Dashew design will go through waves, and I'd guess a very wet ride). If speed doesn't give you wood, then don't bother - the Dashew designs will just be a nuisance cost when you pay for transient moorage. Stick with Nordhavn or KK.

But if you're original criteria was correct - and there's no way to know given you're long on dream and short on experience, then the Dashew boat should move to the top of your list. If you're excited about the community and the certifications of a build, then Nordhavn or KK.

I'll re-quote Bill Lee of Santa Cruz 52 fame (sail): Fast is Fun.

Good luck -

Peter
MV Weebles

 

[Crusty Chief]

Having read this entire thread, I am impressed by the quantity and quality of submissions. I too, no longer have a desire to cross oceans, did enough of that while in the Navy.

But I wanted a “capable blue water boat” because I knew what the ocean can do just a few miles offshore. The term “Capable” needs to be taken serious. Prepping a boat to cross oceans is daunting, and virtually all that have done it will tell you so. Prepping the crew is another daunting task. Many dreamers cant do it, and resale of fairly new “Blue Water” boats is evident if you care to look. We are fairly new to long distance cruising as we are real close to the 15K NM mark, in the last 4 1/2 years all on our non “Stabilized” boat.
I wish you the best of luck in your search for your Dream boat. And hope that when you do actually get her, that you use her to the fullest extent.
Cheers

 

[garychurch]

My wife and I have lived on a 64' Grand Banks Aleutian Trawler Style Motor Yacht for the last 2.5 years.

We have traveled the US east coast, the Bahamas and are currently in the Caribbean after spending hurricane season in Grenada.

I love the Fleming 58 and 65. Very similar to our GB. Kady Krogen is a nice boat but I think it's much more suitable to costal cruising. I am not a Nordhavn fan, although we have seen a half dozen 58s in our Caribbean travels.

There seems no good reason to spend $3 million on a new boat, when $1.5 will potentially get a nice well maintained used model (buyer beware however a get a good surveyor as well as hire Steve D'Antonio).

I think the biggest issue that is often overlooked is the need to be very familiar with all of the boat systems, how to maintain then and how to repair them. A good inventory of parts and tools is also a necessity.

While we have had no difficulty in finding marinas and anchorages, well maintained mooring buoys that can hold our 60 ton 64' boat are few and far between. For example, virtually every anchorage area in the BVIs is filled with mooring buoys that limit boat length to 50' or less.

I can provide lots of details if you want to send me a private message and we can discussed the boat issues you are most interested in.

 

[North Baltic sea]

Hi,


Don't miss out on the opportunity to find a ship without a great brand that can go and make a trip to where not all ships can go when you are fulfilling the dream of your life. Here's one option that's not so bling bling, but great value for money?


This is real go enywear boat for sale, 1 A class ise break(Difficult ice-conditions 50-100cm) and Equipped for long journeys in both Arctic waters and hot Caribbean voyages.


Ship - Astra - Shipsforsale Sweden - The Scandinavian Shipbroker


+6 min video

NBs

 

[Magneto]

Wow at 175 tonnes and around 1.5 gal/nm, I WILL need a 200 tonne captain's license. It is a lot of boat and still in our budget!

We have dreamed big in the beginning and nothing wrong with that. It's free! But this was our first dream and still for sale a year after we dreamed it:

https://www.boattrader.com/listing/...edition-103014695/?refSource=enhanced+listing

 

[greatpapabear]

Hi,

Don't miss out on the opportunity to find a ship without a great brand that can go and make a trip to where not all ships can go when you are fulfilling the dream of your life. Here's one option that's not so bling bling, but great value for money?

This is real go enywear boat for sale, 1 A class ise break(Difficult ice-conditions 50-100cm) and Equipped for long journeys in both Arctic waters and hot Caribbean voyages.

Ship - Astra - Shipsforsale Sweden - The Scandinavian Shipbroker

+6 min video

NBs

What a gorgeous vessel. The main drawback being its 3.65m draft which would prohibit entry into most of the marinas we love to visit!

Dreaming - again....

 

[O C Diver]

Hi,


Don't miss out on the opportunity to find a ship without a great brand that can go and make a trip to where not all ships can go when you are fulfilling the dream of your life. Here's one option that's not so bling bling, but great value for money?


This is real go enywear boat for sale, 1 A class ise break(Difficult ice-conditions 50-100cm) and Equipped for long journeys in both Arctic waters and hot Caribbean voyages.


Ship - Astra - Shipsforsale Sweden - The Scandinavian Shipbroker


+6 min video

NBs

Certainly another direction to consider.

The thing that struck me in the video was the constant theme of go anywhere in roughest conditions, with all video on the calmest of flat water. If I were in the market for a Bluewater passage maker, I would tell any salesperson making their pitch, show me video of what it looks like in 10' seas. Everything looks good on flat water.

Ted

 

[Magneto]

Certainly another direction to consider.

The thing that struck me in the video was the constant theme of go anywhere in roughest conditions, with all video on the calmest of flat water. If I were in the market for a Bluewater passage maker, I would tell any salesperson making their pitch, show me video of what it looks like in 10' seas. Everything looks good on flat water.

Ted

I agree. Most videos don't show performance in rough seas. Here is one that does. Nordhavn 50 Duet (Ron & Nancy) Bora Bora to Fiji in 9 foot seas.

https://youtu.be/6aVITuAE0QE


This boat still shines in these conditions.

 

[Chrisjs]

That is not bad conditions! I've seen much worse in Long island Sound.

 

[North Baltic sea]

Wow at 175 tonnes and around 1.5 gal/nm, I WILL need a 200 tonne captain's license. It is a lot of boat and still in our budget!

We have dreamed big in the beginning and nothing wrong with that. It's free! But this was our first dream and still for sale a year after we dreamed it:

https://www.boattrader.com/listing/...edition-103014695/?refSource=enhanced+listing

Hi,

Ou yeah, a really cool and sea-looking classic North Sea Trawler, built with exquisite furnishings. You will have a great time planning and searching for your new moving home and adventure around the world. All the best for your Project!

NBs

 

[North Baltic sea]

What a gorgeous vessel. The main drawback being its 3.65m draft which would prohibit entry into most of the marinas we love to visit!

Dreaming - again....

Hi Piers,

You're right in the draft to complicate harbor choices, on the other hand it brings seaworthiness and space to store fuel for ocean crossings.

I couldn't get any bigger than my current boat because I love island jumping in our archipelago amidst nature and sometimes the draft of 1.3 or other dimensions is too much and knocks out some great items.


Exsamples, Dragets kanal, Nynäshamn, Swerige very nice and exotic routes, my boating area.

OC Driver,

would really love to see manufacturers show videos of extreme weather boating, for some reason they don't, but everyone gets to test their boat or rather how big the waves can be and I know my NT can last more than me and 10 'feet there is still no limit to my NT or skipper, i think Astra can go very very HIGHT seas nice, Because it is designed to rescue a ship in tough conditions at sea.

NBs

 

[Baker]

That is not bad conditions! I've seen much worse in Long island Sound.

If you've been out there a lot you should know that video never does it justice. IOW, the size of the waves look a LOT bigger in person than they do on video. ANd While I am not from there, I have a hard time believing LI sound would ever get 9 foot seas.

 

[O C Diver]

I agree. Most videos don't show performance in rough seas. Here is one that does. Nordhavn 50 Duet (Ron & Nancy) Bora Bora to Fiji in 9 foot seas.

https://youtu.be/6aVITuAE0QE


This boat still shines in these conditions.

Those aren't 9' seas. Those are relatively gentle ground swells. I'm not going to say that isn't 20 to 25 knots of wind, but I've seen more white capping in a steady 15 knots. Anyway, as your new to this, surfing with the seas isn't what you're looking for in a video. You want to see the bow going into 10' steep waves or bow quartering 10' waves. When the waves oppose your forward motion, you get impact versus the waves gently sliding under your stern as they pass.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

If you've been out there a lot you should know that video never does it justice. IOW, the size of the waves look a LOT bigger in person than they do on video. ANd While I am not from there, I have a hard time believing LI sound would ever get 9 foot seas.

Don't know the number, but I'll bet it could have been double 9' just before hurricane Sandy made landfall in NYC.

Ted

 

[Chrisjs]

I've was in a Selene 47 with blue water coming over the pilot house in Long Island Sound. Best guess 12 ft seas (could not see around vessel for water higher than PH) and 50 kt winds. Just after a hurricane "passed through" but I will never believe a NOAA forecast again!!! This video was mild by comparison. And I am not bragging- should not have been out there - stupid!!

 

[twistedtree]

Those aren't 9' seas. Those are relatively gentle ground swells. I'm not going to say that isn't 20 to 25 knots of wind, but I've seen more white capping in a steady 15 knots. Anyway, as your new to this, surfing with the seas isn't what you're looking for in a video. You want to see the bow going into 10' steep waves or bow quartering 10' waves. When the waves oppose your forward motion, you get impact versus the waves gently sliding under your stern as they pass.

Ted

I know the owners of that boat pretty well, and think you can probably take their assessment of the conditions to the bank. They have way more experience than most, on both east and west coasts, and have crossed the pacific. And they are not prone to exaggeration.

 

[darkside]

That could well be 9' seas but fairly routine conditions with any accelerated trade winds in that part of the world. We had similar seas in that area. It's one of the very good reasons you travel with the trades.

I had another FPB parked behind me last night.
How about this as an alternative?
Way easier to live on, no paint, 10kn cruise, enough fuel....

https://www.profabengineering.co.nz/steel-boat-construction

 

[leeman]

that could well be 9' seas but fairly routine conditions with any accelerated trade winds in that part of the world. We had similar seas in that area. It's one of the very good reasons you travel with the trades.

I had another fpb parked behind me last night.
How about this as an alternative?
Way easier to live on, no paint, 10kn cruise, enough fuel....

https://www.profabengineering.co.nz/steel-boat-construction

View attachment 98112

wow!!

 

[O C Diver]

I know the owners of that boat pretty well, and think you can probably take their assessment of the conditions to the bank. They have way more experience than most, on both east and west coasts, and have crossed the pacific. And they are not prone to exaggeration.

Freely admit I could be wrong, but my experience in 20 to 25 knot winds is totally white capped wave tops. Would also expect the seas to be building, not mostly swells.

Ted

 

[tozz]

Before I commissioned the construction of my current boat with a different builder, I strongly considered Nordhavn, but wanted twins. They had no problem building a boat with twins (at least not in the 60'+ sizes I was considering), so I suspect there are a number out there. My goal was to have a capable long-range passage maker well designed for fishing.

Is the boat you commissioned a Nordlund Yachtfisher? Your avatar looks like one!