Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

[JustBob]

I'll throw in my two cents worth for free. I have been around and on trawlers since the early 1990's. But have owned my Hampton 658 for the last two years.

If you really feel you will cross oceans, I don't think a twin semi displacement like the Fleming should even be on the table.

I have many friends that are Nordhavn owners. The bonus of having a Nordhavn is the community. They have a strong online presence (the NOG). There is another community of owners and wannabes called the dreamers you can join:

https://groups.io/g/NordhavnDreamers

When cruising here in the PNW they are always looking out for each other. My observation is that there are more Nordhavn's around than any other brand. Being an owner means being part of a larger network of great people. Also, IMO the company itself does more to promote the community than other brands.

This blog: https://comeonrover.com/ is a great intro. Wonderful friends. They plan to cruise the world in their Nordhavn 55, which is what I would target if I were you. As all boats are compromises, this one just "fits."

That boat is large enough to live on. And if you don't end up crossing oceans, so what? It's a great cruiser too.

Best of luck.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

200K will not float a 52 foot boat with a crew of 2 or 3 for a year.

But it would float a 42 foot boat for you and the spouse for just about forever.

A 52 foot trawler would be a pretty tight fit for two owners, a dog and even a small paid crew. On the other hand, IMHO a 52 foot trawler is about the outside length for two novice boaters to handle.

Get a 45 foot boat that checks all your boxes. Even the offshore passage maker boxes. ( This thread has not really gotten into stabilization but get a gyro ) Take two years to do the Great Loop. Then take a third year to explore all the places you missed like the Bahamas, BVIs, maybe Cuba, Mexico or South America.

Man, What a Plan!!

By the way, F.W.I.W., I would get a boat that was a couple years old, low usage and professionally maintained. Half the cost of new and probably a better boat.

pete

 

[dirtdoc1]

I would lean away from a fixed speed cruiser, typically 7 - 8 knots, and pick a Dashew type vessel that gives you a broader speed range/advantage .

The versatility gives you more options/flexibility in your globe trotting plans.

Ditto! The FPB isn't pretty but what an amazing blue water cruiser! Check out their videos on Youtube.

 

[Simi 60]

Ditto! The FPB isn't pretty .

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
I prefer the more rugged utilitarian styling myself.

 

[Simi 60]

200K will not float a 52 foot boat with a crew of 2 or 3 for a year.

Sure it will
Not a problem.
Just probably not where you are or I for that matter.

 

[markpierce]

Crossing an ocean? I prefer a thousand-foot-long ship, especially after experiencing two hurricanes, on ships, thankfully.

 

[OldDan1943]

Crossing an ocean? I prefer a thousand-foot-long ship, especially after experiencing two hurricanes, on ships, thankfully.

I was on a submerged submarine and had a hurricane pass on the surface. But, that is another story.

 

[long-cours.62]

"A used boat will have support as well but it will have to have the qualities we want.
1. Stand up engine room
2. King bed located mid ship
3. Giant Fridge
4. Spacious fishing platform and cleaning station
5. Water-tight doors especially to the engine room
6. Protected prop from ice, rocks and logs
7. Redundancy Redundancy Redundancy
8. Water maker" *


Unfortunately we sold our boat but she have not ...a Giant fridge

 

[long-cours.62]

"...So you are quite unaware of the long history of Naiad stabilizers installed on globe trotting yachts much earlier than the existence of Nordhavn or ABT...."




You are right we had Naiad on our Doggerbank built ...in 1983, long before Nordhaven

 

[long-cours.62]

"alloy power cat.

Speed
Economy
Stability without the need of add-ons
Shallow draft
Ability to dry out for maintenance
Space."



This one was just sold (again!) small draft 1 m, low consumption
My preferred power cat by far !


https://www.catamaran-occasion.com/fr/detail/1971

 

[long-cours.62]

The small

I read through the thread and can’t really anything, except to emphasize: Make sure crossing oceans is what you want to do. There are many enthusiasts who sell the boat immediately on crossing their first ocean. As mentioned earlier see if you can crew on an ocean crossing to see if this something you want to do.

Then to emphasize: get on all of these boats and make sure they are what you want.

If I was crossing oceans, I think I’d do it in as large a Nordhavn as possible. However, I have no wish to do so, so my requirements (and resources) are less than that.

We found that the living space in in the 42’ to 48 KK’s exceeded that of similarly sized Nordhavns: the 40’ Nordy is cramped. The 42’ KK is spacious by comparison.

The larger the boat, the less you can do yourself: waxing a 68’ hull is not something one does just for fun! It took me a week to do a 42’ KK42.

Also, while fuel is the least of expensive item, it’s not cheap when crossing oceans to places where it sells for $8/gallon and you need 2000.

Nordhaven have also clearly a "roll problem" as soon as the stab stop ...you could read that even on some magazine...and saw that during the Atlantic crossing

 

[long-cours.62]

Sorry but "pionered"

Magneto, I have followed most of this thread, and noted quite a few suggest you look into the FPB type of vessel, pioneered by a fellow called Steve Dashew and his wife, who had one built (in NZ) called Wind Horse. FPB apparently stands for Fast Pilot Boat, and the essential characteristics they are based on is the narrow beam, usually aluminium construction, (strong plus light), and ability to actually plane under certain conditions, utilising the long (for width) waterline length and hul shape to do so without horrendous fuel consumption(quote)




Sorry,but "FPB type of vessel, pioneered by a fellow called Steve Dashew",

" on is the narrow beam, usually aluminium construction, (strong plus light), and ability to actually plane under certain conditions, utilising the long (for width) waterline length and hul shape to do so without horrendous fuel consumption"
was not true because, for example Michel Joubert made this type of design for us already in 1992....!! long, narrow(L/B 4), relatively light (d/l 150) aluminium boat, no keel.

And another designer made this type of drawing even before Joubert.


For me the main problem of the FPB 64(after the cost !!!) it is the bow who pass to frequently ...under the wave
When Dashew initiate the Wild horse project we mail few time to him and explain our point of view : too long , keel could be a problem, not possible to stand up alone in tide area...And the 64' became a success :no keel, shorter and tick bottom plating.


Before our Long-cours 62 we had a longer aluminum hull very curious bottom but very nice passage in water, but keel too long but with our 2 Perkins 185 hp we could maintain 11/12 kts on crossing

 

[twistedtree]

"...So you are quite unaware of the long history of Naiad stabilizers installed on globe trotting yachts much earlier than the existence of Nordhavn or ABT...."




You are right we had Naiad on our Doggerbank built ...in 1983, long before Nordhaven

Just curious... Were the Naiads part of the boat's original build, or were they added? And if added, do you know when?


And your boat was 73'? My comment was about stabilizers being common on small boats. The NAR fleet was mostly in the 45-65' range, with one larger boat as I recall.

 

[long-cours.62]

The Naiad was fitted during the building process of the Doggerbank, the Doggerbank was registered in 1983, may be fitted in 1982.
Built in Nederland .

the Doggerbank type was around 15.40 m at wl and something like 17.6m lod, draft 1.6m and displacement 45t +
Photo of her below

 

[twistedtree]

The Naiad was fitted during the building process of the Doggerbank, the Doggerbank was registered in 1983, may be fitted in 1982.
Built in Nederland .

the Doggerbank type was around 15.40 m at wl and something like 17.6m lod, draft 1.6m and displacement 45t +
Photo of her below

Definitely a pioneering example.

 

[mvweebles]

Definitely a pioneering example.

My 1970 Willard 36 had original equipment Vosper Thorneycroft hydraulic stabilizers. Boat had the original engineering blueprints aboard when I purchased her in 1997. They work fine though I decided to replace them recently due to lack of parts availability. Naiad purchased what remained of Vosper about 20 years ago.

 

[Magneto]

Cost of globetrotting

200K will not float a 52 foot boat with a crew of 2 or 3 for a year.

But it would float a 42 foot boat for you and the spouse for just about forever.

A 52 foot trawler would be a pretty tight fit for two owners, a dog and even a small paid crew. On the other hand, IMHO a 52 foot trawler is about the outside length for two novice boaters to handle.

Get a 45 foot boat that checks all your boxes. Even the offshore passage maker boxes. ( This thread has not really gotten into stabilization but get a gyro ) Take two years to do the Great Loop. Then take a third year to explore all the places you missed like the Bahamas, BVIs, maybe Cuba, Mexico or South America.

Man, What a Plan!!

By the way, F.W.I.W., I would get a boat that was a couple years old, low usage and professionally maintained. Half the cost of new and probably a better boat.

pete

Pete, you’re the first person I have read on this thread to say 200K per year would not sustain a 52 foot Nordhavn. But to be clear I do not plan on paying a crew for a year. Only as needed and likely only the first year.

This is a very good question and I want to clarify my intentions/plans concerning this so you and others can help me nail down operational cost per year for globetrotting. I understand it depends on how much on shore partying is done, age and length of boat and catastrophic failure such as blowing a generator or engine. Also I think the sweet spot for a good purchase is a well maintained 2-5 years old boat. For budgeting and living layout purposes, we are looking at 55 feet.

Let me set an example of our intentions so we are on the same page. We like the path of Mermaid Monster in their 55 foot Nordhavn with 2 adults, 2 children and 2 dogs for one. Another one we follow is MV Dirona. This couple is just the two of them aboard a 52 foot Nordhavn. Both are putting serious miles on their journey but no one talks of yearly cost. Just individual cost of parts or lock fees etc. Both are examples of what my wife and I plus our dog will be doing. As an example the Panama Canal crossing fees for a 55 foot boat is around 3-4K. But I don’t expect to do that every year.

This 200K does not include the cost of the boat or any financing. I will consider insurance as operational cost and I think it was said here to expect about 2%. Transient slips and moorings from time to time, fuel cost and boat maintenance needs to be in this number. Transient slips I figure if we never left the dock an average 1-2K per month for 55 footers is 24K per year and I am being extreme. We’ll also take advantage of free anchorages and moorings for a lot of our stops. We will be cursing and burning fuel around 2-3 GPH. If I never stop, it would cost 13K per year plus generator fuel consumption.

The paperwork and cost for entering and leaving various countries becomes extensive but I gather from talking to charters in the Virgin Islands the fees to be a few hundred here and a few hundred there depending on the port and requirements for our dog.

I plan on hiring a captain and crew the first year but only from time to time in passages I feel would we would benefit from. At $500.00 per day plus per Diem for one captain and one crew, I hope to not need much but I think I can afford help when needed. We have friends and family that will join us and help with the ropes from time to time but as I stated in my example, we plan to eventually be just the three of us.

Am I missing anything?

 

[sunchaser]

Magneto
The N55s are not young anymore. The N60 took over about a decade ago. Thus higher operating costs for the N55. A 2 year old N52 would be far less costly to maintain and keep going than a decade + old N55.

I've spent time on both as well as offers to purchase. $200k per annum should be easy provided you've bought correctly. For direct OPEX an N or KK 52 would run you about $100k pa if you did 5000 nm pa.

BTW, you may want to talk to an insurer now. I've a friend who had similar desires to yours and his insurer said get some experience before you get a "big" boat.

Be aware though, the best way to avoid the wrong crew (quite commonly the case) is to get proficient yourself by buying that vessel now, short trips, lots of hands on maintenance and jump on that learning curve.

 

[DavidM]

Magneto:


Watch the Bill Parlatore interview as noted in this TF post- http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...iew-pmms-bill-parlatore-48317.html#post832585


It is a bit tedious, but there are pearls for anyone contemplating his first trawler.


David

 

[GraniteStater]

Fun Video - I went to Bill's blogsite afterwards and noticed that they have a 4 part series on the cost of cruising. Might give you some interesting insights as to costs.

https://www.followingseas.media/blog/2018/11/6/the-cost-of-cruising-part-1

 

[mvweebles]

Am I missing anything?

You are definitely light on gph and transient slip fees, which can be extraordinary depending on where you cruise. Your 55-foot boat will be at least 60-feet with overhangs (example: a N57 was admeasured in the Panama Canal at 67-feet).

Here is a back-of-napkin based on some general assumptions. Really depends on how much time you stay in marinas, and how much work you can do yourself. In the YouTube interview, Parlatore speaks some about how things used to be simple on trawler-yachts. It has a huge impact on both costs and confidence.

 

[cafesport]

I’m pretty familiar with the running costs as my wife and two dogs have been cruising a sistership for the last seven years. Not so familiar with slip rentals as we almost exclusively anchor out, but I would recommend planning on 4$/ft/day in the civilized world. Also we’ve averaged around 4200 gallons of diesel per year for fuel with 400 being for electricity. That works out to about 600 engine hours and 1500 hours between two generators annually. To further break that down, you might want to figure a nautical mile per gallon to reposition the back porch and a gallon per day to use it. And that assumes you substitute the yellow umbilical cord for the anchor chain. If you want more specifics pm me but I think your budget should be workable contrary to the majority of opinions so far.

 

[ranger58sb]

You are definitely light on gph and transient slip fees, which can be extraordinary depending on where you cruise.

Ummm... yeah... an example, we spent about $2500 in transient fees for our November cruise south from Annapolis to JAX. In a smaller boat than OP envisions. Gak!

-Chris

 

[Codger2]

Crossing an ocean? I prefer a thousand-foot-long ship, especially after experiencing two hurricanes, on ships, thankfully.

My vote is for a Boeing Dreamliner or 777.

 

[Chrisjs]

Plus, do not forget the hidden costs of buying, selling (10% ++) and depreciation. Figure that on a $3M Nordhavn purchased new and sold after 10 years you will be out about an extra $100-125K/year. Nothing depreciates like a new boat or car!! Buy a good 10 year old used vessel and save much of the pain, though there are slim pickings presently on Yachtworld!!

 

[Dan_can]

I was on a submerged submarine and had a hurricane pass on the surface. But, that is another story.

Wow, I’d love to read about that adventure! Please!

 

[Codger2]

This blog: https://comeonrover.com/ is a great intro. Wonderful friends. They plan to cruise the world in their Nordhavn 55, which is what I would target if I were you. As all boats are compromises, this one just "fits."
.

Bob, you are driving one of the best looking 65' boats in existence! A Nordy 55? Top heavy, small living spaces, slow? I hope your Hampton 658 forgives you.

 

[long-cours.62]

I think mainly

I like the big steel boat, but if plans change and they want to sell or upgrade, IMO a steel boat here in the US will be harder to sell. If they are truly traveling the world, selling a big steel boat would be a easier I guess. But a “brand name” boat like a Nordhavn/Krogen would be easier to resell I think?

Vripak is a well known builder in Europe however, so maybe I’m thinking too provincially.

Vripack is ONLY a designer company, formally made by Dick Boon. Not a builder.

 

[OldDan1943]

Vripack is ONLY a designer company, formally made by Dick Boon. Not a builder.

You mean like this?

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/vripack-13-65-3198729/

 

[JustBob]

Bob, you are driving one of the best looking 65' boats in existence! A Nordy 55? Top heavy, small living spaces, slow? I hope your Hampton 658 forgives you.

Well THANKS Codger! But I was talking about for his mission and budget, not mine. The Hampton 658 is still my favorite choice for my cruising goals...