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Old 05-21-2020, 06:15 AM   #401
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Really good points to consider from MVWeebles above. We can't give you the answer to the "what boat" question, but we can give you the questions to ask yourself.


Re Pilot House, to me it's all about whether you plan to do many night passages. I see a pilot house as akin to a dark room, for us old timers who still know what a dark room is (was). You need lights-out while the rest of the boat wants light-on, and hence need separate, isolated spaces.


There also is a boat-size factor. Below around 50' I think you only want to allocate space to a pilot house if you will really need a pilot house. Above around 50' you start to have the space for the PH to both be an operations center AND a place for others to hang out. It becomes like the kitchen in a house, i.e. the place where everyone ends up hanging out. In that case it can actually be a really nice place for everyone while underway with great visibility, etc.
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Old 05-21-2020, 06:58 AM   #402
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The newbie wants us to tell/guide him on what boat to buy?
I’m still trying to decide if I should by Apple stock at $1.35/share.
I think we are both missing out.
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Old 05-21-2020, 09:58 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
The rest of us need to be a bit smarter with our hard earned.
Of course the above is absolutely true for most who agonize over decisions like which boat to buy. But getting back to the Gates, Musks & Ray Krocs of the world, I don't care what anyone says, I have studied those guys like you can't believe and actually applied some of their philosophies! They certainly worked for me but there has been one component missing from this thread and that is "perseverance." I don't care how smart or well financed you are, there will be times when things look very bleak and those that gut it out are the ones that reap the rewards. I think that really applies to buying a boat. Pick one you like, jump in and buy it and deal with the "oh shits" because they are definitely going to be there! (Regardless of which boat you decide on.)
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Old 05-21-2020, 12:52 PM   #404
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PointDoc, you may already know this but there are owners' organizations for most of
the boats you are interested in. There is probably no better way to narrow down your
choices than to get on board and talk to the owners of these boats which the owners
groups or certain brokers might facilitate. Additionally, once you buy one the owners
group will be there to help you get the most out of the boat.
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:16 PM   #405
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I am sure you have gotten more info than you ever expected and no, I did not read it all but if you are still listening here is my advice. I have been chartering boats over the past eight years, everything from a 29' Ranger Tug to helping transport a 70' Offshore from CA to Bellingham, WA. In-between I chartered a 55 Fleming and I have to say, if you can afford one, get it. Absolutely an amazing boat with redundancy everywhere. I would feel comfortable going anywhere in a Fleming.
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Old 05-23-2020, 12:09 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
..... Long distance passagemaking is not rocket science and contemporary technology makes it much easier. If PointDoc has the cash he should buy the boat he wants. Move aboard and hire a pro to help him cruise and learn the ropes. In a couple of months he'll know enough to get out on his own and learn by experience. He'll be out there having a great time and he'll be challenging himself constantly - the ultimate rush.

For some, time is way more precious than cash. Putting off a dream to "pay your dues" as defined by someone else, burns time and opportunity. If you've got it, spend it; you can't take it with you. Trade experiences for cash if you can. We don't live forever.
Totally agree with that, especially the statement I have highlighted. It really worries me the number of folk who come on here, and talk about when they retire, they will do this or that, and asking for advice on which boat to buy, etc.

If my wife and I had waited until we retired, which was only 18 months ago, we would have missed out on the 16 years of pleasure we had from our modest vessel, (all we could afford), as my wife has developed a medical condition which now precludes her from any boating activity - even an ocean cruise on a liner would be a major challenge. Especially now with Covid lurking.

I might add with a wry smile, if I had seen all the amazing advice and other stuff we have on here, and all the horror stories of what can be wrong with buying a used vessel, I think I'd have run a mile. Possibly again, missing out on the fun we had refurbishing an older boat, and the sheer satisfaction that doing just that can bring.

So, my advice is to learn all you can. Take on board the advice and stories, but don't let it discourage you to take on a bit of a challenge all the same. And most of all...do it as soon as you feasibly can, as none of us know what's around life's corners.

PS. I think Walt on Codger2 (#403) summed some of what I've tried to say damn well, when he said...

I don't care how smart or well financed you are, there will be times when things look very bleak and those that gut it out are the ones that reap the rewards. I think that really applies to buying a boat. Pick one you like, jump in and buy it and deal with the "oh shits" because they are definitely going to be there! (Regardless of which boat you decide on.) I like that Walt, and so true...
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Old 08-09-2020, 04:48 PM   #407
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I’m a bit concerned about the following post so apologize to start. Just spent an hour reading this thread and learned some but also thought “that’s just not true” more than once.
I’m going through the same matrix but on a smaller scale.
1. There’s a difference in build between boats. I had an Outbound 46 built for me launched in 2013. She’s on the level of Hinckley, Morris, Oyster, Hylas. From the get go both the NA and the builder of these stick built boats were aimed at voyaging and passage making. Production boats can do this as well but I’d go to sea in a 30 year example of any of the above and seen production boats rendered unsafe after a single passage.
2. KISS holds true but has become increasingly difficult to do. We have 3 chart plotters, navionics on 2 IPads, open source OPN and other charting on a toughbook and a laptop. In spite of that still carry paper, do DR and carry a cheapo sextant with sight reduction books/sheets.
Know how to triangulate with the Steiners or follow a depth contour with a lead line. T storm comes up the portable electronics go into the stove. In short all the bother about nav is simply not true. BTW with a pencil you can follow a latitude until you sort yourself out. BTW if I blew out an engine I would get on the fleet one or the SSB or worse case set off a epirb. and get help if in mid passage.
99.9% of vessels out there are single screw. Ships have no back up engines. This is changing with self docking ships and more non Panama ships, ULCC, huge container vessels. But just like your mast can fall down single screw shouldn’t be a hang up. Folks have moved on from split rigs a long time ago.
3. On any ocean going vessel you need three spares of everything and enough consumables to last until your next landfall where you know you can resupply Any old landfall just won’t do. Has to be one where you can your needed stuff (best) or have it shipped/flown in in a reasonable time frame. So the big space issue is where to put things and tools. Focus of living, lounging spaces is secondary. Moving things to get to things is a PIA.
4. Coastal is more dangerous then ocean. Even when leaving in a fleet such as the Salty Dawg Rally or ARC a day out you see no one. Have gone from US east coast to Leewards multiple times with never seeing a boat nor ship. Collision avoidance is a not issue. Once you leave the continental shelf it’s a desert. Nothing to hit. No fish, whales nor detritus. Sailing routes rarely match shipping lanes either. Shipping containers aside it’s the hard edges that sink you.
5. Wave height is irrelevant for any boat designed for open waters. It’s the wind waves on top of the swells that are stressful to you and your boat. Period is much more important than height and superimposed trains coming from different angles leading to the washing machine effect more important yet. I’m happy in 3 or 4 meter swells but miserable in wind against wave in the Gulf Stream with a squall coming in from due East.
6. Most people in the world are never alone. Hiking a plane goes overhead. Coastal your cellphone still works as you dodge traffic not following colregs. There’s something totally magical being on watch in the middle of the night with the heavens alight, boat with a bone in her teeth, phosphorescent wake and just the sound of wind and water. Passage is never boring.
7. I’m looking at trawlers and speaking with brokers and it’s like I’m speaking a different language. I’m interested in the AVS (angle of vanishing stability), comfort quotient, gyradius and Gz curve. Sure we’ve come a long way from Beebe but even now weather can be fairly reliably predicted for 3 days, decently for 5 days but past that it’s a crapshoot. My average passage is 1500-2000m so we’re well past 5 days. So you want a boat that can survive a knockdown and self right. I know in my current boat even when singling I can put out a Jordan series drogue button up and survive just about anything. I use a weather router but a days work is 180-200 nm if things go right. So if your voyaging as the OP wants to why aren’t these established numbers available. The Norhavn site gives you hype but no real numbers. For any blue water sailboat you know you want a AVS of at least 120 and 130 is considered good.
8. Good sea berths depend on a lot of things. Without bundleboards doubles are generally worthless. Leeclothes or other confinements are very helpful. Being as close as possible to the center of motion and center of gravity is very helpful but being aft of these is great. My wife spent 16 days on one passage sleeping in the forward queen. She’s only 4’10” so could also align herself perpendicular to the dominant motion and she has a iron stomach but she’s the exception. Also the boat is narrow with a fine entry so doesn’t pound.
9. Ventilation is key if your not doing marina hopping. We’ve spent much of the last 7 years in the tropics. Rarely ran the AC. A good breeze with you wearing wicking synthetics and being in the shade ends up being more comfortable. The boat stays dry so no mold. Fuel use decreases. Noise decreases. Sure the AC goes on immediately when there’s no wind or it’s real muggy.
Going fishing thanks for letting me ventilate.
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Old 08-09-2020, 05:56 PM   #408
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Hippo,

I read your post and I think you already have the right boat for you.

Optimizing a boat for long offshore passages in bad conditions results in a boat that not many would want for typical cruising. Seems to me a bit like buying a 4x4 truck to drive to the grocery store because it might snow twice a year. But get what you want and enjoy it.
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Old 08-09-2020, 07:32 PM   #409
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My preference would be: None of the Above. The 462 steel-hulled Seahorse Marine Diesel Duck, to me, would be the perfect passage maker, as its designer, the late George Buehler, designed these boats for passage making from the keel up. As Buehler made his plans available to everyone, even backyarders, it's best to specify Seahorse Marine as the builder. Very few DDs are on the market. Some original owners still have their Ducks after 25 or so years, still going strong. Also, the new 462s are very affordable at under $1 million, and semi-custom built.


See: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/202...k-462-1175275/
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Old 08-10-2020, 07:30 PM   #410
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My boats for sale.Unloaded it from the ship today. Signed contract with a broker. I’m moving on and getting a trawler.You guys are stuck with me. I have a great sailboat but want a great trawler. Have a lot to learn and hoping you’ll share your knowledge and experience to help me get there.
With prior boats generated a short list of 3 or 4 I was happy with. Then had the wife pick one. Found that made her feel it was her boat as well as mine. That approach has worked in the past. She only got involved once any boat on that short list was just fine with me.
Long list is:
Norhavn
KK
DD
One off in steel or Al
I’m clueless about which model, and what features are on the definite yes I want it and the no go list. Before building my last boat I had a definite list of things I wanted and list of things if present I knew I didn’t. That allowed me to pick a builder. Final list was Boreal, Outbound and Hylas. Wife picked Outbound. I’ve owned center consoles but am a complete newbie to trawlers. Have helped friends on transits so kind of know what I’m getting into. . So far think I don’t want a semi displacement boat. Fast trawlers are off the list. I have a 50’ slip available to me. So 50’ or below. I want to do the Loop so assume fins or sea keeper would be better than fish. I’m fine with single screw. I fart dust. Took me a year to spec the last boat and a bit over a year for them to build it. Not interested in waiting 2 years again or going through the stresses of a new build. The same brands come up here. But when out cruising saw dutch built boats, polish, French and Italian. Have no knowledge about them all. Would appreciate anybody’s thoughts as to whether their are full displacement trawlers beyond just DD,KK and Norhavn? Thanks
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:05 PM   #411
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Have also a look at the Selene brand, your wife may like them
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:07 PM   #412
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. So 50’ or below. I want to do the Loop so assume fins or sea keeper would be better than fish. I’m fine with single screw. I fart dust. Took me a year to spec the last boat and a bit over a year for them to build it. Not interested in waiting 2 years again or going through the stresses of a new build. The same brands come up here. But when out cruising saw dutch built boats, polish, French and Italian. Have no knowledge about them all. Would appreciate anybody’s thoughts as to whether their are full displacement trawlers beyond just DD,KK and Norhavn? Thanks
Nice Ductch boat recently had a refit. Distress sale, but in San Diego.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...-lrc--3544720/
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Old 08-10-2020, 09:22 PM   #413
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I suggest you look up JMYS.com. They are brokers that specialize in trawlers. They can guide you through the process.
Jeff Merril is the owner.
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Old 08-10-2020, 09:28 PM   #414
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Anybody know what happened to the OP?

Last post on TF was at the beginning of April.

This thread has been dormant since May.
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Old 08-10-2020, 10:44 PM   #415
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Duck for Sale

Might be of interest. Info only, not an endorsement.

https://mvmobyduck.com/
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Old 08-11-2020, 07:02 AM   #416
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The DDs check a lot of boxes. Talked with them. Their NA is a chinese lady who sent me incomprehensible stability numbers. Apparently the chinese use a system all their own.
My only issue is the bride wants to do the loop. Think having fish would increase bridge clearance. Think removing the poles, even if cf, and replacing them would be a pain as well as unstepping the mast. Would prefer fins or sea keepers.
The Dutch boat link is greatly appreciated. Never did the canal. Always wanted to see the lake. Friends said that part was fun but the rest of it a chore. Having just done a shipping from St. Lucia to Newport would estimate an additional $25-30k to get a boat from the Nederland to here. However, similar boats look capable of doing Netherlands-Portugal-Azores-Antigua. Been to the Azores on a invite from the Portuguese government due to a research project on machado Joseph’s disease. It one of my favorite countries. Would be enthralled to go back there and show the wife around. So it’s not out of the range of possibilities.
Have a boat broker who’s a personal friend. Hear what you’re saying about Jeff Merrill. That house does have a good reputation so thanks for that suggestion as well but may use my friend. He’s a US dealer for Zeelander and some other powered craft so knowledgeable but admits trawlers aren’t his specialty whereas it is for Jeff. Much to think about.
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Old 08-11-2020, 07:37 AM   #417
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The DDs check a lot of boxes. Talked with them. Their NA is a chinese lady who sent me incomprehensible stability numbers. Apparently the chinese use a system all their own.
My only issue is the bride wants to do the loop. Think having fish would increase bridge clearance. Think removing the poles, even if cf, and replacing them would be a pain as well as unstepping the mast. Would prefer fins or sea keepers.
The Dutch boat link is greatly appreciated. Never did the canal. Always wanted to see the lake. Friends said that part was fun but the rest of it a chore. Having just done a shipping from St. Lucia to Newport would estimate an additional $25-30k to get a boat from the Nederland to here. However, similar boats look capable of doing Netherlands-Portugal-Azores-Antigua. Been to the Azores on a invite from the Portuguese government due to a research project on machado Joseph’s disease. It one of my favorite countries. Would be enthralled to go back there and show the wife around. So it’s not out of the range of possibilities.
Have a boat broker who’s a personal friend. Hear what you’re saying about Jeff Merrill. That house does have a good reputation so thanks for that suggestion as well but may use my friend. He’s a US dealer for Zeelander and some other powered craft so knowledgeable but admits trawlers aren’t his specialty whereas it is for Jeff. Much to think about.
I read through much of the Moby Dick website/blog on Diesel Ducks built by Seahorse. Good reading if you're considering. Bit of an eye opener for me.

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Old 08-11-2020, 04:24 PM   #418
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I agree that the DD is not the ideal craft for the loop. If the loop were my mission, I would prefer some additional speed, along with the the lower clearance and shallow draft.

It will be interesting to learn what you find that falls within your parameters - keep us posted, please.

Best Wishes
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Old 08-12-2020, 05:51 AM   #419
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Been looking at N40, N43, N46 and N47. Looks like the 46 may actually be the better looper but some how like the 40. Yes she looks a bit top heavy but think with the weight down low A/B may not be as critical. I do my own maintenance and like access better on the 40.
Can you offer advice?
What’s it like docking these things? We’re mom and pop. My knees are shot which is one of the motivating factors in getting out of sail. Wife fell off the ladder/sugar scoop when we put the boat on the hard in Grenada and fractured her ankle. She isn’t as quick since. To date very little marina time but every boating friend I have tells me the US isn’t the Caribbean and we be docking ten times more up here than we were island hopping.
I’m concerned by the absence of walkways. Do you just secure a stern line and go forward against it until you’re sorted out? In anything over 20 thrusters are just about useless on a sailboat. Same for trawlers? Currently our key line has been a midship spring. Is it the same for trawlers? Looking at cleat placement looks like most trawlers would pivot on that line.
Can anybody suggest good place to charter one in the northeast? Think I want to find a bouy away from traffic and play approaching bow first, stern first and along side. Short of that what’s good to read to learn about close quarter handling a single screw trawler?
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:10 AM   #420
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Been looking at N40, N43, N46 and N47. Looks like the 46 may actually be the better looper but some how like the 40. Yes she looks a bit top heavy but think with the weight down low A/B may not be as critical. I do my own maintenance and like access better on the 40.
Can you offer advice?
What’s it like docking these things? We’re mom and pop. My knees are shot which is one of the motivating factors in getting out of sail. Wife fell off the ladder/sugar scoop when we put the boat on the hard in Grenada and fractured her ankle. She isn’t as quick since. To date very little marina time but every boating friend I have tells me the US isn’t the Caribbean and we be docking ten times more up here than we were island hopping.
I’m concerned by the absence of walkways. Do you just secure a stern line and go forward against it until you’re sorted out? In anything over 20 thrusters are just about useless on a sailboat. Same for trawlers? Currently our key line has been a midship spring. Is it the same for trawlers? Looking at cleat placement looks like most trawlers would pivot on that line.
Can anybody suggest good place to charter one in the northeast? Think I want to find a bouy away from traffic and play approaching bow first, stern first and along side. Short of that what’s good to read to learn about close quarter handling a single screw trawler?
MY 1989 N46 used fresh water in the keel tanks as ballast.
The bow thruster was very underpowered until I put in a 12 hp (?) 2 prop BT.
That was a key issue to me. After it was dropped, all the windows needed to be reset and exterior teak replaced.
The first new owner did show it was a constructive loss. I think it was sold and now up for sale w/o mention of constructive loss. Hmmmm. (I put a non opening port in the shower door, looking into the ER. That to me was the give away that the boat was back on the market.
The N46 was a stout boat and with the hyd stabilizers could handle bigger seas than you or I wanted to experience.
I spent BIG bucks re configuring the fwd S/R. The original 20KW generator ‘ate’ up the space in the ER and made or all maintenance difficult. There was also an 8KW gen in the aft lazeret. (Sp)
If you stick with a 12KW gen, I am told LOTS more space in the ER.
The 47 was supposed to address the space problem in the ER too.
I did ask them why they stopped making the 46 and he honestly told me, sales dropped off. I would like to explore the 47 to see the differences.
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