Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

[bowball]

That's pretty funny because back when we were looking at the KK58 and Nordhavn 60, it was my wife who put the kibosh on the KK. She said the shape (sweeping deck line) looked like something out of a Mother Goose story. But we all have different taste. Now looking back on both boats, the Nordhavn was the right pick for us.


Re interior space, fuel capacity is definitely a factor in how much interior living space is available. Just to show some contrast, a Fleming 65 hold 1700 gal, where my Nordhavn 68 holds 3400 - double the fuel. That takes a lot of space, and is the price you pay (or at least one of them) for longer range.

Isn’t the fuel capacity difference less from interior volume tradeoff above the waterline but more from the depth - draft of 7’2” vs 5’?

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I like to tell my clients, if you go with a full displacement vessel be prepared to go slowly, but you can take everything with you, including the kitchen sink. Full displacement vessels have significant interior volume for storage, fuel. living space etc. Semi-planing vessels have less volume, which is the price paid for higher speed.

 

[long-cours.62]

In this case our

I like to tell my clients, if you go with a full displacement vessel be prepared to go slowly, but you can take everything with you, including the kitchen sink. Full displacement vessels have significant interior volume for storage, fuel. living space etc. Semi-planing vessels have less volume, which is the price paid for higher speed.

boat is :
half displacement (big storage place lazaret, 9000lt of diesel, 2000lt water + 12.5t of maximal load...)
half semi planing (possible to maintain an higher speed than the hull speed, already reach 10kts when 2 engines at only 1150rpm clean bottom full loaded)

 

[greatpapabear]

My wife and I owned Play d'eau, a Fleming 55, for 18 years, having bought her new in 2003.

For 6 of those years, we lived on board, and cruised for many, many miles. From Holland in the east to the Scilly Isles in the west, and south as far as La Rochelle and Rochefort on the west coast of France.

Was she big enough for the two of us living on board? Yes.

Although semi-displacement, we cruised at only 8 knots. Why? We found we really enjoyed passage making at this speed. 8 kts was comfy, peaceful, gentle, and we only had to refuel once, annually - a bonus!

The stabilisers were absolutely key for this speed.

When we were looking at a 55 at the Southampton Boat Show in 2002, I remember asking Tony Fleming if we could have one engine, only. I didn't want two. 'She comes with two,' he replied. 'But I want one,' I rejoined, adding, 'I'm the customer.' 'Piers,' Tony, said. 'I'm the builder, and she comes with two,' he said emphatically.

Continuing, I said, 'You've given so much space to the engine room, that if you reduced it, you'd be able to give more space to the cabin areas which would be so comfortable.' Tony replied, 'Piers, engines are far more important than people.'

End of conversation!

So, to address some of the comments in this thread.

Main Cabin? Very quiet. No water slapping. But, we'd have liked a larger bed (I'm 6' 2") and some walk space along each side to help with bed making.

Office space? We added a fold-down desk top on the 3rd cabin.

Coastal or Ocean? Good question. Having encountered some really, really nasty coastal seas, would I take her across an ocean? No. Why not? One: I've never felt that the glass in the pilot house would be strong enough to take green water. Two: external doors are not water tight and I know from experience that when confronted with really heavy rain or water - and that includes the access to the fly-bridge - water can enter the boat through all the doors.

Overall, I believe she's built and perfect for coastal cruising.

If we were to buy another boat, what would she be? A Nordhavn 63 (apologies to Fleming).

 

[bowball]

Hi Piers!

It’s interesting that it often is a Fleming v Nordhavn debate. I went through the same thing. Once you use one you long for the strengths of the other, as you haven’t experienced it’s weaknesses.

It clearly depends on mission, as everyone knows.

 

[twistedtree]

Hi Piers!



It’s interesting that it often is a Fleming v Nordhavn debate. I went through the same thing. Once you use one you long for the strengths of the other, as you haven’t experienced it’s weaknesses.



It clearly depends on mission, as everyone knows.

I think if you are looking at both, then you haven’t refined your requirements enough.

 

[greatpapabear]

I confess we bought the Fleming having fallen in love with her looks. So elegant, so beautiful, so classic.

 

[mvweebles]

I confess we bought the Fleming having fallen in love with her looks. So elegant, so beautiful, so classic.

Same reason we ended up with our Willard 36. Pretty sure if we made a rational decision, would have ended up with a CarriCraft or Bluewater Houseboat.

BTW - love the name of your boat "Play d'eau." Cute play on words.

Peter

 

[greatpapabear]

BTW - love the name of your boat "Play d'eau." Cute play on words.

Peter

Hi Peter. Thank you! The origin of the name is here

 

[Simi 60]

boat is :
half displacement (big storage place lazaret, 9000lt of diesel, 2000lt water + 12.5t of maximal load...)
half semi planing (possible to maintain an higher speed than the hull speed, already reach 10kts when 2 engines at only 1150rpm clean bottom full loaded)

Yes, but you get that with 72 ft of boat.
Would it be as good in 55 or 60fter?

 

[bowball]

My wife and I owned Play d'eau, a Fleming 55, for 18 years, having bought her new in 2003.

Two: external doors are not water tight and I know from experience that when confronted with really heavy rain or water - and that includes the access to the fly-bridge - water can enter the boat through all the doors.

Overall, I believe she's built and perfect for coastal cruising.

.

How did water enter through the fly bridge access doors? I agree that they aren’t built to be weather tight but I don’t see how water could get to them? If it was any issue Fleming would have changed it no doubt.

They are recessed and protected by the sliding hatch. Not to mention the hard top or Bimini.

 

[Mako]

BTW - love the name of your boat "Play d'eau." Cute play on words.

Yes, agree, but must have been even more fun trying to communicate over the VHFf. Most listeners probably just figured you were saying "Plato" I would guess.

 

[greatpapabear]

Yes, agree, but must have been even more fun trying to communicate over the VHFf. Most listeners probably just figured you were saying "Plato" I would guess.

Over time, we became 'known' by the Coastguards. Some would 'smile' in their comms with us. Others would laugh.

 

[greatpapabear]

How did water enter through the fly bridge access doors? I agree that they aren’t built to be weather tight but I don’t see how water could get to them? If it was any issue Fleming would have changed it no doubt.

They are recessed and protected by the sliding hatch. Not to mention the hard top or Bimini.

Bear in mind Play d'eau was a 2002/2003 build.

To answer your question, have you ever washed your boat and not found water on the door steps of the PH doors, the FB access hatch, or the saloon patio doors?

Spray and wind have the same effect.

Piers

 

[sasemr]

Nordhavn vs Kadey

Any of you guys have done an in depth comparison of the systems between both boats/brands? There are obvious differences but I have not done the thorough homework. Examples: comparing the fuel systems; comparing the hydraulic systems; comparing the electrical and overall energy management system; comparing safety measures (windows, watertight doors etc); comparing the fiberglass build quality; anchoring systems; etc etc
I am looking at the N52 vs KK52
Thanks

 

[OldDan1943]

You want us to spend your money?

What is the mission.
Get 3 surveys, hull, engine and systems.

Better you should get 2 pieces of paper, one for KK, one for N.
List weaknesses and strong points of each brand.
Wad up paper, toss it away, turn and ask your sweetie, your wife/partner which she wants and buy it.
ALL systems can be updated.

 

[twistedtree]

Any of you guys have done an in depth comparison of the systems between both boats/brands? There are obvious differences but I have not done the thorough homework. Examples: comparing the fuel systems; comparing the hydraulic systems; comparing the electrical and overall energy management system; comparing safety measures (windows, watertight doors etc); comparing the fiberglass build quality; anchoring systems; etc etc
I am looking at the N52 vs KK52
Thanks

I think a significant portion of the people who buy a Nordhavn in that size range have also considered a KK. When I bought my N60 years ago, I seriously considered a KK58. When it came time to move to an N68, I looked at other boats quite a bit, but KK wasn't on the list mostly because it was beyond their sweet spot in the market.


Old Dan's comments, though tongue in cheek, are pretty important. How the layout, styling, fit and finish appeal to you is very important, and I think second only to meeting the needs of the boat's intended use. You need to live with and in the boat, and it should please you every day, not annoy you.


As for the specific aspects that you asked about, they come down to the boat being suitable for it's intended use/mission. In 90% of the cases, both boats will meet your mission, and I say that without even asking or knowing what your mission is. I say it only because most people doing "extended" or "extreme" cruising still never cross an ocean. Most of the differences address that particular need. Yes, KKs can and have done ocean crossings, but you can probably count them on one or two hands. In contrast, every year there are enough N crossings to use up both your hands. It's just a ho-hum thing vs a celebrated accomplishment. But honestly, that only matters if you actually will cross an ocean.


So let's separate need from want. There is a good thread elsewhere about over-specifying boats that is worth a read. I think the takeaway is that getting out and getting started in whatever boat you have or can manage to get is much more important than delaying for some pipe dream that ends up never happening. You will never know how you really want to cruise, or what a particular boat can and can't do until you have gotten out there and gathered some experience.


OK, with all that out of the way, and at the risk of offending, I'll offer up my opinion. KKs are excellent boats - among the best - but Ns are a notch above in almost all respects. Fit and finish, quality of materials, quality of components, extent of redundancy, stoutness of construction, etc. I reach the same conclusion every time I tour a KK. Do you NEED the difference? Probably not. Do you WANT the difference? Well, that's up to you to decide.


I'll also point out that the individual boat can make a huge difference since every boat in this class is different, sometimes in quite significant ways. That alone can sway a decision.


And one last point on redundancy, since that's one area where you will typically see more on an N than a K. The first thing that comes to mind when you think about redundancy is not getting stuck in the middle of an ocean in a dead boat. If you don't plan to cross any oceans, you can forgo a bunch of redundancy and just call for a tow, or head into a port for repairs. This is all true, but for more extensive cruising, redundancy brings what I think is a very material benefit. When something breaks, redundancy allows you to keep on cruising without disruption or delay. Having been stuck in ports for days or weeks waiting for parts or repairs, I personally place a high value on being able to switch over to some backup or alternate system and keep on cruising, then deal with the broken stuff when you have down-time.


Good luck in your search.

 

[mvweebles]

I think a significant portion of the people who buy a Nordhavn in that size range have also considered a KK. When I bought my N60 years ago, I seriously considered a KK58. When it came time to move to an N68, I looked at other boats quite a bit, but KK wasn't on the list mostly because it was beyond their sweet spot in the market.


Old Dan's comments, though tongue in cheek, are pretty important. How the layout, styling, fit and finish appeal to you is very important, and I think second only to meeting the needs of the boat's intended use. You need to live with and in the boat, and it should please you every day, not annoy you.


As for the specific aspects that you asked about, they come down to the boat being suitable for it's intended use/mission. In 90% of the cases, both boats will meet your mission, and I say that without even asking or knowing what your mission is. I say it only because most people doing "extended" or "extreme" cruising still never cross an ocean. Most of the differences address that particular need. Yes, KKs can and have done ocean crossings, but you can probably count them on one or two hands. In contrast, every year there are enough N crossings to use up both your hands. It's just a ho-hum thing vs a celebrated accomplishment. But honestly, that only matters if you actually will cross an ocean.


So let's separate need from want. There is a good thread elsewhere about over-specifying boats that is worth a read. I think the takeaway is that getting out and getting started in whatever boat you have or can manage to get is much more important than delaying for some pipe dream that ends up never happening. You will never know how you really want to cruise, or what a particular boat can and can't do until you have gotten out there and gathered some experience.


OK, with all that out of the way, and at the risk of offending, I'll offer up my opinion. KKs are excellent boats - among the best - but Ns are a notch above in almost all respects. Fit and finish, quality of materials, quality of components, extent of redundancy, stoutness of construction, etc. I reach the same conclusion every time I tour a KK. Do you NEED the difference? Probably not. Do you WANT the difference? Well, that's up to you to decide.


I'll also point out that the individual boat can make a huge difference since every boat in this class is different, sometimes in quite significant ways. That alone can sway a decision.


And one last point on redundancy, since that's one area where you will typically see more on an N than a K. The first thing that comes to mind when you think about redundancy is not getting stuck in the middle of an ocean in a dead boat. If you don't plan to cross any oceans, you can forgo a bunch of redundancy and just call for a tow, or head into a port for repairs. This is all true, but for more extensive cruising, redundancy brings what I think is a very material benefit. When something breaks, redundancy allows you to keep on cruising without disruption or delay. Having been stuck in ports for days or weeks waiting for parts or repairs, I personally place a high value on being able to switch over to some backup or alternate system and keep on cruising, then deal with the broken stuff when you have down-time.


Good luck in your search.

TT - in my opinion, one of the unique and dominant strengths of Nordhavn was their owners - PAE - had a very strong background in boating (for those who don't know, they cut their teeth having the venerable Mason 43 sailboats built in the 1970s and 1980s). I compare this to Willard which did not have an active cruiser at the helm for the last 20-25 years of production). The difference between the two companies is Willard is a good manufacturer of fiberglass based assemblies, PAE is a builder of cruising boats. So much so that they've become a lifestyle brand that continuously evolves. Despite the N40 Round-the-World trip being heavily laden witb marketing hype, the PAE principals (mostly Jim Leishman) did a ton of cruiser-centric R&D to equip the boat.

Long intro to my question: my sense is Tony Fleming has a similar knowledge and passion for using his boats (perhaps even surpasses PAE), but what about KK? I know very little about them. They all have dedicated users' groups, but I wonder about the continuous improvement culture that addresses actual cruiser-usage hurdles. Thoughts?

Peter.

BTW - your quote below definitely summed up a very long and winding thread. Excellently worded.

There is a good thread elsewhere about over-specifying boats that is worth a read. I think the takeaway is that getting out and getting started in whatever boat you have or can manage to get is much more important than delaying for some pipe dream that ends up never happening.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65413

 

[twistedtree]

BTW - your quote below definitely summed up a very long and winding thread. Excellently worded.

There is a good thread elsewhere about over-specifying boats that is worth a read. I think the takeaway is that getting out and getting started in whatever boat you have or can manage to get is much more important than delaying for some pipe dream that ends up never happening. [/QUOTE]



Don’t dare to dream, because dreaming isn’t very daring. Dare to do. Get out there and get started, otherwise you are just dreaming.

 

[kjg001]

"Don’t dare to dream, because dreaming isn’t very daring. Dare to do. Get out there and get started, otherwise you are just dreaming."


Best remark of the day.



Thank you TT.


For those of us who are still on dry land and looking forward to the day we are out there- an idea without a goal is just a dream. Get some goals set even if they are small at the start.

kjg

 

[Hippocampus]

Before deciding to go SD looked at multiple small (40-50’) Ns and KKs. Differences
N has grp tanks, day tank and excellent fuel system
Spaces, handholds, edges make N more suitable when it’s bumpy but at the expense of quality of life at anchor.
Ground tackle set up for N is better imho.
Lighting is better on KK.
Storage equivalent but KK a slight bit better for access.
Sight lines poor for docking on both if no flybridge. Cameras required if no second person with a headset.
Flybridge on KK more comfy but worse if dodging pots or coral heads.
KK salon and staterooms have more natural light.
Both have poor natural ventilation c/w most sailboats.
We were all set on a N43. The N40 helm is just plain uncomfortable.
Above is an opinion. Bride also liked the aesthetics of the N43 but also liked the northsea version of the KK48. She like the KK galley better as well. Thought the layout was more suitable for her.

 

[Magneto]

I started this thread as a dreamer a few years ago. My wife and I are now owners. Today we purchased a Nordhavn 35 Hull#20.

It was 2014 and Carol and I planed on motoring a boat in the Florida area where I grew up . What kind of boat? Where did we want to take it? How much money? All the kind of questions you read hear at Trawler Forum .

I did some research on long distance boats and found trawlers were built for ocean crossings. By design, construction and fuel range. Trawlers cross oceans and we found it fascinating. So, what kind of trawler? I asked this question to this group some years ago. I owe it to you to tell you where it led us.

Carol and I just purchased a Nordhavn N35 #20 we are naming her Moondance. This was partially based on our discussions in this thread, research through the internet, and finally traveling to Dana Point CA and meeting the people at Nordhavn. We enjoyed following YouTube people doing the exact same thing we want to do so we became subscribers we became patrons, we became listeners and looked deep to what we wanted to do. We watched Mermaid Monster, MV Freedom, Project Atticus, Magic Carpet, Sailing Uma, Gone with the wynns, Sailing Nahoa and Technomadia for years. We learned a lot from their mistakes and accomplishments.

We have chosen Nordhavn because of our desire to later cross oceans, to have a community of boat ownership of the same boats, to have a club of hundreds to ask for advice or help on any problem. To fall asleep knowing we are surrounded by water tight doors and a hull built for the most demanding seas. We choose Nordhave because we plan on stretching her limits on the ocean. Even though we will not cross the Atlantic in this coastal cruiser, we will get to know the brand and the community that comes with her before upgrading to an ocean crossing N51.

We have learned from you that you must assess what you want to accomplices and to start small before going large. If you will be a marina queen. If you want to cruise intercoastal waters (looping), or just pleasure outings on weekends. There is a right tool/boat for every job. Our tool is to cross oceans but first we need to coastal cruise the eastern coast to get our sea legs and experience.

First up: Insurance companies. They will not insure you unless you have experience on a boat 15 feet less than what you are applying for. So, I wanted a 51 foot boat but only had 26 foot experience. I had to look for an up to 40 feet boat. We did not think we could find a Nordhave available on the market for our size and price range so we searched other boats. Then a miracle happened. A 2004 N35 came available and we jumped on it.

The N35#20 is a coastal cruiser and for the first few years, that is what we need to gain the experience and confidence in ourselves before upgrading to N51. We are a “live aboard” type of people. We have been living full time in our RV for years. Living in a 35 foot RV has required adjustments and adaptations. The boat will require the same but we are ready and experienced with the logistics of managing waste and fresh water, electrical and plumbing, and off grid living. Now we are adding the handling of all this on water.

This was our decision based on what fits in our life and dreams. Everyone has a different dream and goal. The boat a person chooses will be different to what you want to accomplish. Deep water ocean crossings, Intercoastal waterways, coastal cruising, marina to marina partying, fishing etc. There is a boat suited for each of these situations and only a few for all.

We wanted a boat that can forgive a bad decision on bad weather and still bring us back alive. We wanted a boat that came with a community that supported our needs after purchase. That is why we choose a Nordhave. So, for now we will cruise in this coastal cruiser and learn about ourselves and the boat as we venture up and down the east coast, the Caribbean, and on to Guatemala. This boat supports that plan. Thank you to everyone that has contributed to our dream.

 

[CharlieO.]

Congratulations. Got any more pics?

 

[READY]

Congrats. Sounds like you took your time and will be very pleased with your decision. Hope to see Moondance out on the water.

 

[Magneto]

 

[Magneto]

Our website is mvmoondance.com for more pics and story.
Our youtube channel has a walkthrough and is also mvmoondance.

 

[READY]

By the hull number you purchased Sundance? Looking at the listing you now get to the fun part of boating: what tender to purchase, do I move from AGM to LiPo, upgrades to electronics...

I see many new threads in your future!
Congrats on your new boat. For now just get her out on the water and enjoy as is.

 

[CharlieO.]

Our website is mvmoondance.com for more pics and story.
Our youtube channel has a walkthrough and is also mvmoondance.

Nice, I'll check it out. Loving the crow's nest.

 

[guy with a boat]

Congratulations and welcome to the Nordhavn community. That is a nice looking boat and will take you on lots of great adventures.

Good job working through the process and making it happen.

 

[Fletcher500]

Congrats Magneto. Starting with an N35 for your first ocean going boat is a great choice. I have spent time on a friends and have always thought it was a sharp boat. Well laid out, comfortable, and a nice helm.