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06-28-2020, 10:27 AM
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#1
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Senior Member
City: East Coast & Caribbean
Vessel Name: Untethered
Vessel Model: Selene 57
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 115
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Nordhavn or Kady Krogen?
I'm 60, nearing retirement and my wife and I would like to start a new chapter of exploration, adventure and learning. I've been around water my whole life, have sailed off and on, and owned a Nordic Tug for about 8 years. My boating experience has mostly been on the U.S. west coast. I want to buy a long distance trawler and live aboard for 5 to 10 years. Although I'm open to suggestions, I've narrowed it down to Nordhavn or KK. I'm interested in your view on either or both. I'm especially interested in people who have cruised on either or both and can compare. I'm looking at the N43, 46, 47 or 50, and the KK 48 North Sea or Whaleback. Front runners are the N47 and the KK 48NS.
I'm very interested in the seakeeping abilities of both. How they handle the open water in different sea states. The Nordhavns are built beefier and heavier, but the hull shape of the KKs seem more efficient and could maybe handle a following sea better. Nordhavns certainly have more of a reputation for ocean crossings (which we might do), and KKs seem much more popular on the U.S. East Coast.
I'm sure all of the boats I mentioned can get the job done. I'm just looking to optimize my choice. Thanks in advance for sharing your experience, thoughts and opinions.
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06-28-2020, 10:43 AM
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#2
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Guru
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Sirena
Nordhavns certainly have more of a reputation for ocean crossings (which we might do), and KKs seem much more popular on the U.S. East Coast.
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I would figure out whether or not you will cross oceans. If not, I'd take the Krogen hands down. For the same investment, you get a lot more living comfort for great coastal cruising.
If you're willing to burn more fuel, a Flemming pushes all my buttons.
Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
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06-28-2020, 10:49 AM
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#3
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Guru
City: San Diego
Vessel Name: Circuit Breaker
Vessel Model: 2021..22' Duffy Cuddy cabin
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Sirena
I'm sure all of the boats I mentioned can get the job done. I'm just looking to optimize my choice. Thanks in advance for sharing your experience, thoughts and opinions.
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Although my actual experience with Nordhvns is limited at best, I did spend a week on an N50 years ago while cruising the PNW.
I found it to be an exceptional vessel & more roomy that the smaller Nordys I've toured. We ran at 8 knots for the entire week and I really don't know what the WOT speed is. I really liked the boat!
__________________
Done with diesel power boats! Have fallen in love with all electric!
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06-28-2020, 10:58 AM
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#4
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Guru
City: Pahrump, NV
Vessel Name: Pairadice
Vessel Model: Sold Selene 47
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,967
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Maybe ask yourself and Spouse where you plan to actually cruise. And then narrow down your choices from there. Nordies definitely do an excellent job of marketing there brand, KK’s are excellent boats also. We chose the Selene and haven’t regretted it. Look at being able to get on and off the boat both at anchor and tied up at the dock. Especially for the Admiral to egress for handle dock lines. The side access on the Selene won us over. Also, bow and stern thrusters make a hugh difference and if your prone to sea sickness, stabilizers make cruising must more enjoyable.
Most of all, get going as soon as possible. Your not getting any younger!
Cheers
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06-28-2020, 11:05 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
City: East Coast & Caribbean
Vessel Name: Untethered
Vessel Model: Selene 57
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 115
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The N50 is high on my list. It's a nice boat. But there weren't many built, so hard to acquire. Also, being an older boat, they may need more work to get into good condition.
Regarding my cruising plans, it depends on where the boat is when I buy it. If it's the west coast, we'll probably go to Alaska, PNW, down to Costa Rica, maybe to Galapagos, and maybe cross the Pacific and beyond. If it's on the east coast, we'll go up/down the coast, Bahamas, Caribbean and either to Europe or through the Panama Canal to the west coast. We want to adventure and see new sights. So I'd like a boat I can do that with that's comfortable and safe.
I agree, not getting any younger!
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06-28-2020, 11:22 AM
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#6
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Guru
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,076
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I made my pick....twice. And both were Nordhavns.
But seriously, get on as many of them as you can and see which "speaks to you". Either will get the job done. You just need to sort out which you prefer.
Also keep in mind that Nordhavns vary quite a bit from boat to boat, I think much, much more than KKs. The running joke is that if you've seen one Nordhavn, you've seen one Nordhavn. I don't think I've ever been on two that are the same, and that's not counting things like granite selection, wood type or finish, or any sort of soft goods.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
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06-28-2020, 11:29 AM
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#7
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Guru
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,818
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Imo, it really comes down to whether crossing an ocean not where you're going, is important. At 50' or less, I'd be fine with setting it on a ship and have them take it across. At 60'+ or larger, I can see having a really nice boat....that will also cross oceans.
Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
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06-28-2020, 11:31 AM
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#8
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Guru
City: Nanaimo
Vessel Name: former owner of "Pilitak"
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 37
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,703
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LS,
I personally have no first hand ownership of either brand. I also have not even been on board a Whaleback or the KK48NS. I have even less experience with Nordies (only been on board 2).
I can comment in general and give my personal opinion (for what that is worth).
Good friends that we often "buddy boat" with have owned 2 different models of KK and we looked at several different (smaller models) when we ended up buying our Tug (KK 39 and 42). Our friends first Krogen was a KK 44 for several years. In my opinion, this was a great boat, and if I could afford one, that is probably the boat I would buy personally for coastal cruising (and to Alaska) here in the PNW. Great layout and very comfortable for a couple with room for guests.
They now own a KK 52. They moved up with the idea of possibly crossing oceans. So far, they have not done that, but are now planning a trip down the coast to Mexico and maybe beyond. The 52 has a single John Deere with side "get home", hydraulic bow and stern thrusters and active stabilizers. They have added many systems including redundant radar, etc. According to them, this boat is easier to handle in close quarters (like docking) than the 44 or their first boat, a 37 foot sailboat. They cruise between 7 and 8 knots, have an almost unbelievable range, and can handle some "heavy" conditions when needed. Personally, a little overkill for most coastal cruising for a couple, but who am I to tell anyone what is best for them and/or how to spend their money.
Comparing the Krogens to the Nordies I have been aboard (only a few Nordies). I agree with Ted. If you are planning on ocean crossings (plural) or lots of heavy conditions, then maybe the Nordhavn would be the choice. However, if you MAY do open water (not sure) or only occasionally, then I would go Krogen. Krogens have been designed and built to be able to do it. As to what John said about his Selene, our friends KK 52 (and the 44) has easy side access to the dock on one side, giving more interior space than having it on both. For our friends, she handles the boat, and he does the lines. Works very well for them.
Good Luck with your boat hunting.
__________________
Tom
Nanaimo, BC
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06-28-2020, 11:59 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Akeeva
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 50
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 449
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I just sold a Nordic Tug 37 and bought a Nordhavn 50. I really like the Krogens too, but my plan includes ocean crossing and the Nordhavn seemed better suited to that mission (although that might be mostly marketing).
I really like my N50! It's faster and I prefer the layout/space of the 50 compared to the 43/46/47. The heads and galley on the 50 (at least my 50) are not as "home like" as the newer Nordhavns, which may or may not be important to you.
We looked at 40s, 43s, 46s, and 47s, and the 50 felt right to us...fewer stairs, the salon and pilothouse feel more open, ability to cruise easily at 8 knots, etc. After quarantining onboard for the last three months we're thrilled with the boat and plan to do an extensive summer cruise next year to Alaska (including Prince William Sound), then head south for the Sea of Cortez, and then across the Pacific.
Nordhavn made a whole bunch of different configurations of 50 and they only built about 27. Let me know if you have any questions!
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06-28-2020, 12:04 PM
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#10
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Guru
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,167
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I delivered several N46s and N47s north from Dana Point to various destinations in OR, WA, and BC
N46 is a great looking boat. Her tanks are far aft and she squats when full and tends to bounce a lot when in a head sea with full tanks. Engine room is tight compared to later models, especially when PAE started using the "Maintenance Strakes" bulges on either side of the keel to give stand up ER headroom. I forget what model was started with the Strakes. Might have been the N40 or perhaps the N50.
I delivered one N47 that had no flybridge, and several that did have a flybridge. The FB model was a bit more tender and a tad slower. Seemed to be more affected by headwinds and head seas than the N40 as a comparison (which I also delivered several).
I was aboard an N43 but didn't deliver any as they came out at the same time I stopped delivering. I was pleasantly surprised at the performance and comfort of the N40 and the N43 appeared to be a stretched version to give a Stidd chair in PH so I was disappointed I didn't get a chance to run one.
Personally, I like a flybridge, but in my opinion, they seem to effect the handling of a Nordhavn more than I'd expect given their heft. One item to consider is the KK's are cored above waterline. Given how heavy the Nordhavns are - and how much that weight from solid-glass affects trim and stability, a KK might actually be a competitive seaboat from a design perspective vs the tank-like construction of Nordhavn. A good example is the Coastal Pilot 35 that was a bit of a failure because it was over-weight and struggled to get on plane without throwing a ton of HP through her engine. Forum's like this often extol the virtues of Nordhavn's heavy scantlings (they are indeed beefy), but there's something to be said for minimizing weight aloft. With the hydraulic stabilizers turned-off, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the KK48 be significantly more comfortable than the N47 - Jim Krogen was a legendary NA of both power and sail, fast and slow. According to David Gerr, stabilizers do not improve stability, but simply mask the effects for comfort. Something to think about - more to the story than simply scantlings and lay-up schedules.
That said, compared to my many Nordhavn deliveries, I do not have any relevant similar experience with KKs so cannot speak except from having walked aboard dozens during the TrawlerFests I attended when I was presenting in the 1998-2004 time frame. If I were in the OPs shoes, I'd figure out how to get aboard a KK for some distance and get a feel for the compromises. The ER is not as roomy on the Nordhavn for example but is probably fine - I spend more time in the galley than the ER. But for me, I like their styling and living space. I also like the way they tuck the flybridge behind the raised PH, which might be important for air draft if you plan on the Loop.
I do think the OP would benefit by narrowing the cruising plan. Crossing the Pacific is a long distance but apparently isn't too bad headed west in favorable season. But then what? Keep going? Sell in NZ or similar? Return? If return, do you ship or come on your own bottom which isn't nearly as much of a milk-run as the westbound passage is. The return passage is arguably a different boat than the westbound passage and would argue towards the Nordhavn vs KK (as Ted/OC Diver already stated). I seem to recall a N40 went from Acapulco to the Marquesas, almost 3000 nms, the longest nonstop trip in a recreational tralwer I can recall. That's some serious distance for a boat with just shy of 1000 gals of diesel (I don't recall if it carried extra tank or bladder), but I can assure you, returning on reverse course is a much, much different story. Itinerary matters.
Boat condition and equipment are probably going to have an outsized effect on your decision when looking at boats these ages. Most Nordhavns have wing engines and a ton of redundant systems and spares aboard. My sense is many KKs are well equipped, but not for ocean crossing.
In short, I'd do some soul searching on cruising plan - not just on where you want to go, but how to return. I agree with others that I would lean towards Nordhavn if ocean crossing. Otherwise, I'd look very closely at the KK - to my tastes they seem more livable for the 95% of the time aboard.
Good luck and keep us abreast of your choice and decision. Both fine vessels. Tough to go too wrong
Peter
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
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06-28-2020, 12:15 PM
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#11
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Guru
City: Newark, DE
Vessel Name: Infinity
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 48
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 708
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We looked very closely at the N47 (among others) before selecting our KK48.
We're not going to cross oceans - maybe run a few days offshore at a time but that is it.
We found the KK a more livable design for us with more usable interior and exterior space.
This was the tradeoff that was appropriate for us.
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06-28-2020, 12:35 PM
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#12
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Guru
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusty Chief
Maybe ask yourself and Spouse where you plan to actually cruise. And then narrow down your choices from there. Nordies definitely do an excellent job of marketing there brand, KK’s are excellent boats also. We chose the Selene and haven’t regretted it. Look at being able to get on and off the boat both at anchor and tied up at the dock. Especially for the Admiral to egress for handle dock lines. The side access on the Selene won us over. Also, bow and stern thrusters make a hugh difference and if your prone to sea sickness, stabilizers make cruising must more enjoyable.
Most of all, get going as soon as possible. Your not getting any younger!
Cheers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Sirena
The N50 is high on my list. It's a nice boat. But there weren't many built, so hard to acquire. Also, being an older boat, they may need more work to get into good condition.
Regarding my cruising plans, it depends on where the boat is when I buy it. If it's the west coast, we'll probably go to Alaska, PNW, down to Costa Rica, maybe to Galapagos, and maybe cross the Pacific and beyond. If it's on the east coast, we'll go up/down the coast, Bahamas, Caribbean and either to Europe or through the Panama Canal to the west coast. We want to adventure and see new sights. So I'd like a boat I can do that with that's comfortable and safe.
I agree, not getting any younger!
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First off Welcome to TF LA.
I would agree with Crusty and others. Crusty started in Alaska and is south in Mexico heading across the canal, then doing the Great Loop.
Tour many boats, draw up a go/no go list. For us our boat had to have twin engines, no teak on the walk way and other things. Then when both of you you look at each other and go "WOW" that is the boat for you.
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06-28-2020, 01:11 PM
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#13
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Guru
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48 (sold)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,179
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I've considered KK48s and been on about 4 or 5. In all cases access to the ER is not acceptable. N47s quite easy in contrast. Also access to the stabilizers on the KK 48 can be a challenge. The KK 52 is a vastly different story. Look them both over, the 52 is IMHO a much better KK choice.
Getting on and off the KK48 is not nearly as easy as a N47. I find the interior joinery on the N47 of higher quality than the KK48. Tour many prior to shortlisting on the Internet. Nothing beats eyes on plus you can then ignore our free advice and opinions.
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06-28-2020, 04:55 PM
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#14
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Guru
City: Sea of Cortez, Mexico
Vessel Name: Irene
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 40II
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,234
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If you can get to a trawler fest or larger boat show, you could have the opportunity to get on a few different boats back-to-back. My wife and I found this very helpful, and we were able to narrow the field and develop OUR criteria. Eventually, we merged what we liked about the boats with an equipment specification to suit our anticipated mission.
N and KK are both very nice brands and I am not pushing you in any direction. I will offer that Nordhavn has a fantastic owners email group, with expert members from industry and experienced owner/operator/maintainers. This group has enriched and simplified the ownership experience, and it has been a gift we did not expect. We have also enjoyed exceptional support from the Nordhavn front office, even though we are the third owners of our boat. Kadey Krogen may have similar or even better benefits to ownership, but I have no experience with a KK to share.
Again, I am not pushing any particular marque. I was not focused on a support network when we purchased, but in hindsight I wish I was more aware of what was out there.
Best Wishes
__________________
Jeff
MV IRENE
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06-28-2020, 05:46 PM
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#15
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Guru
City: Friday Harbor, WA USA
Vessel Name: FORTITUDE
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 54-8
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,015
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Both are very capable brands with many nautical miles and crossings under their belts so you almost can't go wrong. That said you really need to get onboard both and decide what you like/dislike about each. My opinion is that Nordhavn and Kadey Krogen each focused on different design priorities so only you can decide for yourself what's best for you needs, usage, goals, comfort and budget.
For us we looked at both and chose our KK54 as it met our needs/budget the best.
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06-28-2020, 07:17 PM
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#17
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Guru
City: Warwick RI
Vessel Name: Lollygag
Vessel Model: 34 Mainship Pilot Hardtop
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 872
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Our dock mate has an N50.loves it although it is a slow traveler as he only gets up to 7-8kts. We have been on board very nicely laid out. He did add a stern thruster which he said is a game changer.
Good luck w the search
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06-28-2020, 07:29 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
City: Rockville, MD.
Vessel Name: Libra
Vessel Model: Island Gypsy 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 146
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I have nothing bad to say about KK, but my next one will be Nordhavn for sure. I've being on both types at sea. They both great, but Nordhavn wins by far. The other one I would consider is Flemming. Good luck.
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06-28-2020, 09:32 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
City: Newport
Vessel Name: Privateer
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 52
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by La Sirena
I'm 60, nearing retirement and my wife and I would like to start a new chapter of exploration, adventure and learning. I've been around water my whole life, have sailed off and on, and owned a Nordic Tug for about 8 years. My boating experience has mostly been on the U.S. west coast. I want to buy a long distance trawler and live aboard for 5 to 10 years. Although I'm open to suggestions, I've narrowed it down to Nordhavn or KK. I'm interested in your view on either or both. I'm especially interested in people who have cruised on either or both and can compare. I'm looking at the N43, 46, 47 or 50, and the KK 48 North Sea or Whaleback. Front runners are the N47 and the KK 48NS.
I'm very interested in the seakeeping abilities of both. How they handle the open water in different sea states. The Nordhavns are built beefier and heavier, but the hull shape of the KKs seem more efficient and could maybe handle a following sea better. Nordhavns certainly have more of a reputation for ocean crossings (which we might do), and KKs seem much more popular on the U.S. East Coast.
I'm sure all of the boats I mentioned can get the job done. I'm just looking to optimize my choice. Thanks in advance for sharing your experience, thoughts and opinions.
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Spoiler alert, I own a Krogen 52. My boat search started out with Nordhavn as the front runner but I ended up with the Krogen. Lots of prior comments here by both N and K supporters and I can’t find fault with any of them, even those favoring the N.
We ended up with the Krogen for a number of reasons, some of which a west coast boater might not care about. Our Krogen 52 draws less than 5’ ( twin engine version, as most are) and has an air draft less than 15’ with the mast down. All this nice for the Bahamas and the canal bridges. But in the end, we found the K52 a more comfortable boat for full time live aboard.
Some of the responders talk about ocean crossing, but you don’t mention that as a goal in your OP. Both K and N are fully capable, and have done so, but in the used market you will likely find more N’s ready to do that. As prior commenters have stated, N markets this capability more than K, so more N’ s are fitted out from the factory with the requisite options. Neither boat, at base price, has the redundancy needed for ocean crossings.
Trawler shoppers often talk about long distance cruising as a goal, but may not have refined that goal. There is a huge difference between a boat properly fitted out for a 10-20 day open ocean crossing versus a 5 day coastal passage. The level of systems redundancy required for a boat that will be 150 miles offshore, max, and a boat 500 miles off shore, is significant.
Never drove a N. I can tell you that our K handles following seas nicely. We left Turks and Caicos earlier this year with following seas at 6’ to 8’ with an occasional 10’ and the boat handled well. We were comfortable and the autopilot didn’t struggle. I would look closely at the stern sections of some of the N hulls.
Driving an N or a K, you will do your best to avoid significant head seas, so the issue is, how much can you take from the stern and still enjoy it.
Both companies have great aftermarket support and both owner groups are active and enthusiastic. BTW, the late model K48s have much improved ER ingress.
You will not get the opportunity to test drive both boats in severe conditions, which are the only ones that matter, so find an unbiased delivery captain that has driven both and ask him. Many of these guys get hired by either K or N regularly, so maybe hard to find candid info.
Then get on as many boats as you can. K’s and N’s are all semi custom so don’t make generalizations. Our 52 looks quite different inside from the one delivered a month prior.
Finally, set aside the marketing hype, and assess for yourself whether the boat will be able meet your objectives. Remember that no matter how much time you spend on the boat, or how many miles you travel per year, most of your time will be at rest, either at anchor or in a marina. And you want to be comfortable. How easy is it to get from point A to point B on the boat? How many times will you need to negotiate a particular set of stairs, and how many steps are involved? ( I am old so these things matter)
When you are running, think about what it takes to make an engine check. Every hour? N50, not so bad, but I wouldn’t want to be doing that so often on an N55. Some K’s are less ergonomically well set up as well.
The good news is, between the N and the K, you are already in the sweet spot, so I expect you will be happy with either.
Best of luck to you
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07-03-2020, 01:12 PM
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#20
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 19
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We had a Whaleback for 5 years and loved it. We did the loop and probably put 15,000 miles on it. It was such a great boat for us.
I got sick so we sold it. I got well and we bought a Nordic Tug 42. It’s too small. The Whaleback has the most incredible space. It’s just a phenomenal boat.
If you have any specific questions let me know.
Clarke Gillespie
Zenysis
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