Nordhavn

[Steve DAntonio]

.....says the guy (then yard manager for a highly respected yard - Zimmerman Marine) who went from Chesapeake Bay to Bermuda aboard a Willard 30

Steve D's theme is 100% correct - there are builders who happen to build boats; and then there are true boat builders. Amel, the French builder of world-capable sailboats, is perhaps the best example of the latter. I am sad to admit that Willard is an example of the former (for years, their core business was not government contracts - mostly for RIBs by the way - but building fiberglass wind-deflectors that sit atop the cabs of OTR trucks).

PAE/Nordhavn do an amazing job of building world-cruising capable boats. I remember when they were preparing for the N40 round-the-world stunt. They ran the boat up to Seattle - over 1000 nms of challenging waters - a couple times tweaking the fuel system (day-tank) and prop combination. Now, PAE has a large, devoted owners group that provides feedback, but back-in-the-day, they did the hard work themselves. Not infallible by any means, but a leader in the industry for practical experience in small offshore capable boats. It explains why the N40 proliferated at the same time the W40 (and Willard) exited the industry.

The above said, I do take issue with general theme of Nordhavn marketing - it promotes idea that you can obliterate risk by writing a check. True to some extent, but ignores reality that with redundancy comes complexity. Few are prepared for the complexity part, myself included. Which is why I agree that a 40-foot sailboat is often a more fit-for-purpose ocean-crossing platform (though there's no reason it can't have the same complex systems, and these days, often does). Part of the reason Nordhavn owners are so cliquish is they all need the same [relatively] exotic stuff repaired so they congregate near well-known yachting centers with extensive service providers to repair/replace/upgrade the cool gear they can't live without. Nothing against them - just an observation. Birds of a feather I suppose. But when everything is working, very very comfortable boat.

Peter

Ha, as I was composing my response I intended to include the Willard journey as an exception of sorts (I wasn't worried about that hull either, but our conditions were pretty benign), but got distracted part way through and then forgot. The Willard in which we made that passage, "Willie", was far from an original equipment, under my supervision (I had a vested interest) she was heavily modified for the passage, among other things including redesigning the exhaust system, which failed to meet even Yanmar's specifications, had it been left as original I'm certain water would have traveled back into the engine, along with custom-built flopper stoppers. Indeed, Willard had its issues, and as a dealer, custom builder and refit yard we tried to guide them toward a better product.

My distinction between the two types of builders you note, by the way, is "boat builders" vs. "manufacturers". As it happens, I'm lecturing at the International Boat Builders' Convention in Tampa today, on the subject of properly preparing vessel systems for offshore passage making.

I have many clients who buy Nordhavns who are relative cruising neophytes. Most are committed to learning and seek, and obtain training from professional captains, and equipment manufacturers like ABT and Northern Lights, making a concerted effort to learn how to safely and competently operate these vessels. One of the advantages they enjoy is exactly that owners' clique, as it offers considerable support to newbies, and the Nordhavn Owners' Group forum, which is a substantial repository of Nordhavn experience and knowledge open only to owners (it's fully independent of Nordhavn). Also, the similarity of systems design and construction between these vessels, even different models, is considerable, making service and support easier to provide, among professionals and fellow owners alike.

Learning how to operate the vessel properly is actually the easy part. The real challenge is, as you note, in mastering the complexity of the systems and preventing, troubleshooting, and repairing failures. Most Nordhavn systems are logical and extremely well-documented with owners' manuals and schematics, but complex none the less. I chuckle when I hear buyers, or even Nordhavn themselves, say "We want to keep it simple". There's really no such thing on vessels like this, with all having water makers, HVAC, cranes, thrusters, stabilizers etc. but there is complexity, and complexity done right. For more on this see https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/the-trend-toward-complexity-2/ To be clear, while many can and do do it, everyone or anyone can't do this successfully.

For a 60-something year old new owner couple who are not lifelong gearheads, this can be daunting and it can take much of the enjoyment out of cruising. Again, it can be done, and it has been done, but that part, learning the skills necessary to maintain the vessel and its myriad systems, should not be underestimated. For the most part all trawlers fall into this complexity category, but clearly some do it better than others.

I must confess, I don't look at Nordhavn ads like a buyer might, so I haven't noticed the "Anyone can do this with a check" theme. Again, while many can and have done it, most can't and don't.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

If anyone is looking for specific feedback, I visited Asboat in Izmir and was specifically NOT impressed by the metalwork, insulation and things hiding behind all the pretty stuff. The carpentry and interior finish work was beautiful, but I rejected their proposal.

IMO, anyone wanting to build custom better make sure to visit the yard and inspect boats at various phases of completion.

I never visited Seahorse, but I believe one of our TF members @DieselDuck, has information on them.

No personal experience with Asboat to be clear, however, Could not agree more on visiting a yard before committing to construction, particularly of a semi-custom builder who does not have dozens of completed examples, at least a few of which one could review.

 

[bowball]

Fortunately you can use other boat manufacturers' rally's as data points to compare with.

Oh, wait...

So which Nordhavns were you considering that you no longer are due to lost reputation?

+1. Great point! Thank you.

 

[Fletcher500]

An older thread, but some good points.

There are plenty of people, especially those with a sailboat background, who buy Nordhavns and use them for extended coastal cruising, and even ocean crossings. The reality is, the majority of them stay in their slip, and are used lightly.

I dont follow this closely by any means, but on many of the ocean crossings the owners are bringing along hired guns including Nordhavn personnel. Not a bad thing, but the reality is they might as well be on a cruise ship with engineers and deck officers ensuring their safe passage.

The other old thread that was started by Magneto is also indicative of this, and occurs fairly often on TF in different variations. The only difference is he just posted about it, but never did anything. IE, writing a check is easy, but gaining the skills to do longer offshore coastal runs requires many years to be competent IMO. And ideally, that should be working up progressively through larger vessels. My first boat was a 10 ft Sunfish that I bought with a paper route at age 12.

Don’t get me wrong, I am also a dreamer and love to think about adventures. The difference now is many people data dump on to social media, a website, or whatever. Talk (typing) is cheap.

 

[hollywood8118]

An older thread, but some good points.

There are plenty of people, especially those with a sailboat background, who buy Nordhavns and use them for extended coastal cruising, and even ocean crossings. The reality is, the majority of them stay in their slip, and are used lightly.

I dont follow this closely by any means, but on many of the ocean crossings the owners are bringing along hired guns including Nordhavn personnel. Not a bad thing, but the reality is they might as well be on a cruise ship with engineers and deck officers ensuring their safe passage.

The other old thread that was started by Magneto is also indicative of this, and occurs fairly often on TF in different variations. The only difference is he just posted about it, but never did anything. IE, writing a check is easy, but gaining the skills to do longer offshore coastal runs requires many years to be competent IMO. And ideally, that should be working up progressively through larger vessels. My first boat was a 10 ft Sunfish that I bought with a paper route at age 12.

Don’t get me wrong, I am also a dreamer and love to think about adventures. The difference now is many people data dump on to social media, a website, or whatever. Talk (typing) is cheap.

I think the above, while having some truth is a bit misinformed.
If you go to the major jumping off ports around the world, the predominate brand of motor vessel you will find is Nordhavn. I have been fortunate to be the "crew" and sometimes skipper of a few of these boats. Often times the Owners use additional "crew" to gain additional experience to get them into their comfort zone running the boat. Most Nordhavn owners seem to end up stepping up in size and end up owning more than one. If you get a chance to visit the Nordhavn owners site ( not the Dreamers) you will see a lot of very comfortable ocean crossing owners that don't post to the internet outside of the Nordhavn Owners website. Yes it's true some buy for the prestige, but in my experience most are really into the lifestyle and become very competent skippers.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Fletcher500]

HW, you are heavily involved in the cruising world and know more about this subject than me. I grew up in the Dana Point area and am FB friends with one of the staff who works for them on occasion. It appears to me that Nord staff or pro crew are often on these trips based on his posts, and from the articles I read in general about Nord owners who do ocean crossings. It is good to hear your experience that they are developing in to competent skippers, but I still find the majority of these boats end up spending most of their time in the slip, like most other trawler brands.

 

[BandB]

I think the above, while having some truth is a bit misinformed.
If you go to the major jumping off ports around the world, the predominate brand of motor vessel you will find is Nordhavn. I have been fortunate to be the "crew" and sometimes skipper of a few of these boats. Often times the Owners use additional "crew" to gain additional experience to get them into their comfort zone running the boat. Most Nordhavn owners seem to end up stepping up in size and end up owning more than one. If you get a chance to visit the Nordhavn owners site ( not the Dreamers) you will see a lot of very comfortable ocean crossing owners that don't post to the internet outside of the Nordhavn Owners website. Yes it's true some buy for the prestige, but in my experience most are really into the lifestyle and become very competent skippers.
HOLLYWOOD

HW, you are heavily involved in the cruising world and know more about this subject than me. I grew up in the Dana Point area and am FB friends with one of the staff who works for them on occasion. It appears to me that Nord staff are often on these trips based on his posts, and from the articles I read in general about Nord owners who do ocean crossings. It is good to hear your experience that they are developing in to competent skippers, but I still find the majority of these boats end up spending most of their time in the slip, like most other trawler brands.

I find the truth in between the two of your posts. The majority of all boats spend most of their time in their slips as simply most boat owners don't cruise 50% or more of their time. However, I'd say on a percentage basis, Nordhavn gets more usage than the average brand. Most Nordhavn owners I know are serious boaters. Many just don't get to boat as much as they wish.

As to them being the predominant brand of vessel at jumping off points, I'd say that is very limited where they'd dominate. Certainly not Fort Lauderdale or Antibes. I've yet to go anywhere they were dominant, personally, but I haven't cruised in Asia.

Overall, there are just not that many boaters who are interested in crossing oceans and passagemaking. You even see an acknowledgement of that in Nordhavn's new coastal models from Turkey.

Most Nordhavn buyers are also well informed boaters, although there still are purchasers of smaller Nordhavn's who fall for the overall publicity and quickly find they are not for crossing oceans and rough seas and either then move to another brand or a larger Nordhavn, if ocean cruising is their desire.

 

[bowball]

Having a crew isn’t bad. While I’m a coastal cruiser, I could see getting a bigger Nordhavn and having 1 or 2 professional crew if long voyages were desired. Besides expertise, improving safety and quality of life would be important reasons - and maintaining the boat if sudden returns to home were necessary.

What’s the largest Nordhavn that a couple could reasonably handle? Which size would allow for a crew of 1 or 2 with appropriate privacy?

 

[BandB]

Having a crew isn’t bad. While I’m a coastal cruiser, I could see getting a bigger Nordhavn and having 1 or 2 professional crew if long voyages were desired. Besides expertise, improving safety and quality of life would be important reasons - and maintaining the boat if sudden returns to home were necessary.

What’s the largest Nordhavn that a couple could reasonably handle? Which size would allow for a crew of 1 or 2 with appropriate privacy?

"Handle" is a tricky word because handling in the traditional sense of running it and docking and those things really isn't the big issue. Certainly, many couples handle Nordhavn's over 60' and some into the 70's. The key is are both members of the couple equally trained and skilled so that it's two captains, not a captain and cook or stew or even deck hand.

However, the real key to crew needs is at some point you become a crew yourself if owner operator. Is that what you want? How many hours do you want to spend a week maintaining your boat. Just a washdown of an 80' boat takes a lot of time and effort and is exhausting after a long day of cruising.

Think of it this way. With a small boat, perhaps 20', nearly all your time is enjoying boating and very little is maintenance. Perhaps 95%/5%. As you move up that changes and by 65', it starts to approach 50%/50%. At 80', you'd have a nearly full time crew, it would just be you.

Now each person is different when it comes to their enjoyment of maintenance and care. There are some here who enjoy that aspect of boating as much or more than the boating itself. Then there are those of us who are the opposite and know enough to get by and get home and occasionally help with a wash down or something, but have no desire to do boat maintenance or even housekeeping.

 

[guy with a boat]

There are plenty of people, especially those with a sailboat background, who buy Nordhavns and use them for extended coastal cruising, and even ocean crossings. The reality is, the majority of them stay in their slip, and are used lightly.

I dont follow this closely by any means, but on many of the ocean crossings the owners are bringing along hired guns including Nordhavn personnel. Not a bad thing, but the reality is they might as well be on a cruise ship with engineers and deck officers ensuring their safe passage.

While there are exceptions to every rule, I have found N owners to be very engaged and among the more active boaters. One of the characteristics of the all but the largest models is that they are designed to be run by a couple, without needing hired crew. We have met many scores of N owners (easily more than 100 boats) and I can remember 2 or 3 that use a hired captain, and those were for models over 70’.

Your impression of ocean-crossing with N personnel may be because those are publicized crossings. The N owners and staff do trips regularly to stay connected to how their boats are used, and those trips are sometimes included in N social media. Part of the success of the brand is because the owners and staff have tremendous hours and miles on the water and, as a result, they understand how the boats are used and how they can be continually improved. Most crossings and boat usage are done quietly and don’t show up on social (or other) media.

Some owners will hire an extra crew for a long passage such as a crossing, because its hard on the sleep schedule to do non-stop runs with 2 people. We have done that and would do it again, but 99.8% of the time, my wife and I run our 63.

An earlier comment mentioned N boats gathering in yachting centers. While I haven’t experienced that (maybe we don’t hang out in the right yachting centers), we have found that the next boat we encounter in a desolate corner of the Bahamas or Caribbean or Alaska is disproportionally likely to have an N on the bow.

As B&B pointed out, almost all boats are tied to the dock more than they are moving. Our boat sat for 3 months with snow on it in BC this winter. Does that make it a marina queen? It had been from Mexico to Alaska and back to Canada in the previous 8 months, so I don’t think so. But you wouldn’t know that if you walked the marina in January and saw it sitting there, apparently unused.

 

[bowball]

As B&B pointed out, almost all boats are tied to the dock more than they are moving. Our boat sat for 3 months with snow on it in BC this winter. Does that make it a marina queen? It had been from Mexico to Alaska and back to Canada in the previous 8 months, so I don’t think so. But you wouldn’t know that if you walked the marina in January and saw it sitting there, apparently unused.

This is another reason the Nordhavn is appealing - the relatively more maintenance free aspect of the exterior. A boat like mine with much brightwork really needs to be stored in a covered area.
A Nordhavn though is too tall for almost any covered area.

 

[FWT]

Learning how to operate the vessel properly is actually the easy part. The real challenge is, as you note, in mastering the complexity of the systems and preventing, troubleshooting, and repairing failures.

To be clear, while many can and do do it, everyone or anyone can't do this successfully.

For a 60-something year old new owner couple who are not lifelong gearheads, this can be daunting and it can take much of the enjoyment out of cruising. Again, it can be done, and it has been done, but that part, learning the skills necessary to maintain the vessel and its myriad systems, should not be underestimated. For the most part all trawlers fall into this complexity category, but clearly some do it better than others.

I agree this thread while old, is outstanding. Well worth the re-read. Even though geared toward passage making, which isn't my interest, the principles apply throughout cruising.

Steve:

You absolutely nailed this point. Nailed it.

Coming at trawlers from sail, on simple boats with spartan mechanical systems, it is indeed a fact the navigation and operation of a trawler underway for coastal cruising is the least concern. Maintaining, troubleshooting, and repair of the series of mechanical systems IS the largest concern.

On that, a few more points to expand on that from someone now in the trenches making that jump.

As extensive as the internet resources may be, finding answers to simple questions often isn't easy. It may be out there, somewhere, but finding it can be close to impossible.

Accepting that there are certainly limits to what repair and maintenance chores the less experienced in mechanics may wish to tackle, it also becomes a challenge to select a local yard that has the skills / professionalism one wants. Checkbook or no checkbook. Word of mouth so heavily depends on which mouth. Not everyone has readily available access to yards with readily accepted reputation.

As with many things worth doing, pulling the trigger to do it at all depends upon a certain lack of being intimidated. A willingness to accept the challenge of learning, and enjoy it.

There is an old bad joke that seems to translate. Why is divorce so expensive? Because its worth it. There is nothing, nothing, cheap or easy about any of this but we do it because its worth it.

To say one enjoys sailing, you have to have spent time in the cockpit, in the rain, in full foul weather gear, for some hours and still come back for more. Swapping that out for grease under the nails, boat yoga, and figuring out mysterious new gear is the tradeoff. If you can't or won't do the wet cockpit or the engine room chores then be content watching YouTube videos.

 

[bowball]

I assume you can also mitigate the risk by just cruising coastal waters where it’s possible to limp back , go without the water maker or more easily get parts and service - or healthcare. That’s my strategy.
If you are doing circumnavigation then obviously that’s not feasible.

 

[hollywood8118]

While there are exceptions to every rule, I have found N owners to be very engaged and among the more active boaters. One of the characteristics of the all but the largest models is that they are designed to be run by a couple, without needing hired crew. We have met many scores of N owners (easily more than 100 boats) and I can remember 2 or 3 that use a hired captain, and those were for models over 70’.

Your impression of ocean-crossing with N personnel may be because those are publicized crossings. The N owners and staff do trips regularly to stay connected to how their boats are used, and those trips are sometimes included in N social media. Part of the success of the brand is because the owners and staff have tremendous hours and miles on the water and, as a result, they understand how the boats are used and how they can be continually improved. Most crossings and boat usage are done quietly and don’t show up on social (or other) media.

Some owners will hire an extra crew for a long passage such as a crossing, because its hard on the sleep schedule to do non-stop runs with 2 people. We have done that and would do it again, but 99.8% of the time, my wife and I run our 63.

An earlier comment mentioned N boats gathering in yachting centers. While I haven’t experienced that (maybe we don’t hang out in the right yachting centers), we have found that the next boat we encounter in a desolate corner of the Bahamas or Caribbean or Alaska is disproportionally likely to have an N on the bow.

As B&B pointed out, almost all boats are tied to the dock more than they are moving. Our boat sat for 3 months with snow on it in BC this winter. Does that make it a marina queen? It had been from Mexico to Alaska and back to Canada in the previous 8 months, so I don’t think so. But you wouldn’t know that if you walked the marina in January and saw it sitting there, apparently unused.

Great post from someone who is in the Nordhavn world.
I guess I didn't phrase the comment about "groupings" of Nordhavns.


What I meant it to write is in places where ocean crossings tend to jump off from, the majority of power boats in this group tend to be Nordhavn's


Hollywood

 

[twistedtree]

While there are exceptions to every rule, I have found N owners to be very engaged and among the more active boaters. One of the characteristics of the all but the largest models is that they are designed to be run by a couple, without needing hired crew. We have met many scores of N owners (easily more than 100 boats) and I can remember 2 or 3 that use a hired captain, and those were for models over 70’.

Your impression of ocean-crossing with N personnel may be because those are publicized crossings. The N owners and staff do trips regularly to stay connected to how their boats are used, and those trips are sometimes included in N social media. Part of the success of the brand is because the owners and staff have tremendous hours and miles on the water and, as a result, they understand how the boats are used and how they can be continually improved. Most crossings and boat usage are done quietly and don’t show up on social (or other) media.

Some owners will hire an extra crew for a long passage such as a crossing, because its hard on the sleep schedule to do non-stop runs with 2 people. We have done that and would do it again, but 99.8% of the time, my wife and I run our 63.

An earlier comment mentioned N boats gathering in yachting centers. While I haven’t experienced that (maybe we don’t hang out in the right yachting centers), we have found that the next boat we encounter in a desolate corner of the Bahamas or Caribbean or Alaska is disproportionally likely to have an N on the bow.

As B&B pointed out, almost all boats are tied to the dock more than they are moving. Our boat sat for 3 months with snow on it in BC this winter. Does that make it a marina queen? It had been from Mexico to Alaska and back to Canada in the previous 8 months, so I don’t think so. But you wouldn’t know that if you walked the marina in January and saw it sitting there, apparently unused.

This closely parallels my experience, and I would emphasize the observation that publicized voyages are often delivery voyages where Nordhavn is participating in the delivery, or even doing it on their own. This is definitely the case for most of the Nordhavn created videos. It's also pretty common for new owners to have a training captain for some period of time, and that would appear in many of the videos too.


But once you get past deliveries and training, I'd say the overwhelming majority of Nordhavns 63' and below are owner operated. The 68 seems to be a transition point where there are more captained boats, with a very rough guess of 20% captained. Then above the 68 the number climb, and I doubt there are any 86s or larger that don't have a captain and possibly other crew.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

The Nordhavn Owners Group is, to its credit, very tightly controlled, only owners, past owners and guest experts, of which there are about ten, are allowed official access. It is an incredible resource for owners. While some owners do participate in the Dreamers forum, the difference between the Owners and Dreamers forums is significant.

Nordhavn has built over 600 power vessels, the odds are good you'll see one or more in almost any port in the US, and many foreign ports.

 

[Hippocampus]

My reality is insurance requires crew for passage. We often would take on crew for that reason alone. The boat was 98% of the time mom and pop. 90% of maintenance was mom and pop. But for passage 100% of the time was with crew. Crew was entirely amateur. I covered all boat related expenses. On one or two occasions in order to get extraordinary crew flights as well. Beyond that no captains as the boat was insured as owner operated. I not infrequently had credentialed people who held tickets or yachtmaster but as friends or to get to their paid jobs being unpaid by me. I have no meaningful experience with power passage making but would be surprised if it’s much different with boats under 20 meters doing similar activities. Regardless of your background or how deep your pockets are if you’re cruising eventually all systems fail or require attention. Would think for small boats active cruisers be they on power or sail, coastal or international are forced to learn and expand their skill set.

 

[twistedtree]

My reality is insurance requires crew for passage. We often would take on crew for that reason alone. The boat was 98% of the time mom and pop. 90% of maintenance was mom and pop. But for passage 100% of the time was with crew. Crew was entirely amateur. I covered all boat related expenses. On one or two occasions in order to get extraordinary crew flights as well. Beyond that no captains as the boat was insured as owner operated. I not infrequently had credentialed people who held tickets or yachtmaster but as friends or to get to their paid jobs being unpaid by me. I have no meaningful experience with power passage making but would be surprised if it’s much different with boats under 20 meters doing similar activities. Regardless of your background or how deep your pockets are if you’re cruising eventually all systems fail or require attention. Would think for small boats active cruisers be they on power or sail, coastal or international are forced to learn and expand their skill set.

I think that's pretty universal. My insurance is coastal at the moment, so silent on the subject. But we have and will make multi day coastal runs. My wife and I are comfortable doing that for 3 to probably 5 days, but beyond that want to have at least one more person on board. At a minimum it significantly improves the sleep/watch schedule allowing for 8 hrs off which is enough time to get useful sleep. Plus it's a significant risk mitigation measure. With only two people, if someone gets sick or injured, you are faced with a very difficult situation. And none of this has anything to do with the type or size (within reason) of the boat.

 

[Hippocampus]

TT just wanted to point that out as to say brand of boat matters little as to the need to require a certain skill set. Think the differentiation of Nordies owners from others is somewhat artificial. From what I can gather more Nordies (but not all) actually use their boats and that differentiates them not the brand. And the nature of the use leads them to select nordhavn or a similar “proper “ yacht.

 

[Group9]

We only have one boat in our marina that has completed a circumnavigation. It’s a Nordhaven 42.

For what that’s worth.

 

[Jackets]

. . . Anyway, the MV Freedom channel is I think the only Nordhavn (or boats similar to Nordhavn) cruisers out there living a life close to what I'm dreaming about

There is also MV Mermaid Monster N55 on Youtube as ABOARD MERMAID MONSTER i haven't watched in a while but when i was they were live aboard (2 adults, 2 kids, 2 dogs) I happened across them as a suggested watch on YT.

 

[bowball]

The only group that is restricted is the owner’s group forum, which is limited to owners only. There is a “dreamers” group, as already mentioned, that anyone can join and has lots of good interaction between all kinds of people (including current owners) that are interested in the boats.

I was initially a little surprised at the entrance limitations of the owners group, but it is with good reason. The conversations are limited to the boats and closely related topics, so no politics, joke threads, bragging about past exploits and all the other stuff that makes TF and other forums fun. Keeping it all owners also helps avoid having the topics veer off into talk about sailboats, day boats and whatever else that isn’t relevant to a N question.

There is an amazing amount of experienced brain power available on the site and I’ve yet to see a N technical question asked that went without a thorough and correct answer. It is a great resource and serves a different purpose than other sites such as TF.

I think overall you will find N owners and groups just as friendly and welcoming as any other boating group. Most of us like nothing more than talking about boats with new friends.

They could/should make it read only then for non owners. That would be really useful with none of the downsides you mention. I’m jealous though of the owner interaction and mutual support.

 

[bkcorwin]

They could/should make it read only then for non owners. That would be really useful with none of the downsides you mention. I’m jealous though of the owner interaction and mutual support.

For me, making it read only isn't really practical as there's a lot more personal contact information and other personal details than I would want shared publicly.

Brian

 

[mvweebles]

When the Nordhavn Owners group was formed, many owners were publicly complaining about commissioning delays and such. I can't say for certain, but at the time, sure seemed like a way for PAE to develop a walled garden approach to reduce negative chatter from owners. That said, PAE has always sought to offer superb poat-sale customer service. Having direct access to owners facilitates that. So what began as a defensive position quickly evolved into a marketable feature and sense of community.

In contrast, Willard was trying to make a run at reviving their trawler and perceived the N40 to be a direct competitor. Willard response to owner complaints was very typical of the boat building industry - they would essentially disavow responsibility for any component failure and direct resolution to the OEM of the failed component.

PAE took a holistic approach to ownership. Companies like Willard took a much more transactional approach. Through different means than sequestered owners groups, KK and Fleming join PAE in creating a life cycle experience for buyers. If nothing else, high resale keeps the TCO reasonable.

Peter

 

[guy with a boat]

The Nordhavn Owners Group is not owned or operated by PAE. The site is owned by a (former) long-time N boat owner and is run/moderated by multiple current or former N owners. It has survived and thrived as long as it has because it is generally useful and valuable to the members. It is dependent on that perception continuing since participation is voluntary.

The “private” nature of the group and forum allows for more information to be shared than otherwise might occur. While the NOG is certainly not perfect, it is an excellent resource for owners.

 

[mvweebles]

The Nordhavn Owners Group is not owned or operated by PAE. The site is owned by a (former) long-time N boat owner and is run/moderated by multiple current or former N owners. It has survived and thrived as long as it has because it is generally useful and valuable to the members. It is dependent on that perception continuing since participation is voluntary.



The “private” nature of the group and forum allows for more information to be shared than otherwise might occur. While the NOG is certainly not perfect, it is an excellent resource for owners.

Without PAE involvement, how would an arms-length group know who has purchased or placed a deposit on a Nordhavn?

Not sure the exact nature these days, but at the time of inception back in early 2000s, sure seemed like a hand/glove relationship between NOG and PAE.

Peter

 

[Retriever]

Without PAE involvement, how would an arms-length group know who has purchased or placed a deposit on a Nordhavn?

Not sure the exact nature these days, but at the time of inception back in early 2000s, sure seemed like a hand/glove relationship between NOG and PAE.

Peter

I know PAE doesn’t own or actively manage the NOG, but they do occasionally participate. I bought my Nordhavn directly from the previous owners and reached out to a NOG moderator to get into the group. I think they confirmed the sale with the previous owner. Participation is not automatic, and not every boat/owner participates. Many people at PAE aren’t in the group.

There’s no brand bashing on the NOG, nor are we all chatting about secret design/build problems that Nordhavn’s have (there aren’t any). There’s some deep technical stuff as well as model-specific things, like best routes for wiring between the flybridge and engine room, where to get obscure parts, etc.

The NOG is an unexpected benefit of owning a Nordhavn. It’s a truly phenomenal resource, with subject matter experts from various vendors, a number of very experienced contributors, and model-specific information.

 

[mvweebles]

I know PAE doesn’t own or actively manage the NOG, but they do occasionally participate. I bought my Nordhavn directly from the previous owners and reached out to a NOG moderator to get into the group. I think they confirmed the sale with the previous owner. Participation is not automatic, and not every boat/owner participates. Many people at PAE aren’t in the group.



There’s no brand bashing on the NOG, nor are we all chatting about secret design/build problems that Nordhavn’s have (there aren’t any). There’s some deep technical stuff as well as model-specific things, like best routes for wiring between the flybridge and engine room, where to get obscure parts, etc.



The NOG is an unexpected benefit of owning a Nordhavn. It’s a truly phenomenal resource, with subject matter experts from various vendors, a number of very experienced contributors, and model-specific information.

No doubt. As moderator of Willard Boat Owners since 1997, I can attest that a robust owners group is a true benefit. PAE has done a phenomenal job of caring for their owners cradle-to-grave. Their vendors (such as Northern Lights or TRAC) pay tremendous attention to Nordhavn owners. Many buyers of smaller Nordhavns were relatively new to cruising and resources such as NOG are indeed a wonderful benefit.

I truly appreciate the input of Nordhavn owners on other forums. The MVDirona YouTube videos are incredible. TwistedTree on this forum offers some of the most extensive electrical and electronics knowledge anywhere in the industry. I frequently cite Ken Williams as a go-to source for equipment choices.

As a group, the Nordhavn owners are incredible. PAE has successfully built a lifestyle brand and gone above and beyond to develop a compelling value proposition. But the clubbiness of the NOG is a bit off-putting. I'm neither the first nor last to say it. To say the NOG was developed altruistically, well, no way to know, though my memory suggests otherwise. It was the time of the round the world gig and the Atlantic rally. My sense was the NOG was an outlet to discuss owner issues outside a public venue. But perhaps I'm just being cynical. I also have a strong Groucho Marx vein.

Peter

 

[bowball]

I know PAE doesn’t own or actively manage the NOG, but they do occasionally participate. I bought my Nordhavn directly from the previous owners and reached out to a NOG moderator to get into the group. I think they confirmed the sale with the previous owner. Participation is not automatic, and not every boat/owner participates. Many people at PAE aren’t in the group.

There’s no brand bashing on the NOG, nor are we all chatting about secret design/build problems that Nordhavn’s have (there aren’t any). There’s some deep technical stuff as well as model-specific things, like best routes for wiring between the flybridge and engine room, where to get obscure parts, etc.

The NOG is an unexpected benefit of owning a Nordhavn. It’s a truly phenomenal resource, with subject matter experts from various vendors, a number of very experienced contributors, and model-specific information.

If most (or all) sections were read only to non owners it would be a valuable asset for those considering them. I don’t see privacy issues. Many forums operate that way.

However, the forum sounds incredible. Fleming doesn’t have one but I think their owners are perhaps less “involved” with the technical data? Plus with Burr and Covey and Delta ‘s support they just solve problems and provide concierge level service and support.

It’s great it exists though. I would loved to have gained knowledge reading it as I decided which boat to buy.