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Old 06-18-2017, 09:40 PM   #61
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Spoke with a good friend who is a retired sub captain. He was berthed in Yokosuka and said there is an insane amount of traffic in that area. No idea how that might have affected the situation.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:55 PM   #62
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Here's another interesting discussion with expandable track. Seems a lot of discussion centers on the 0130 vs 0230 JST collision time. Presumably the Fitz coms were disabled and the freighter may have not have made a timely reporting of the collision, possibly due to third world type reasoning. Who knows.

Vessel of Interest | наблŽдаемое ƒдно: Mapping the ACX Crystal's collision with the USS Fitzgerald using publicly available info
From the Chicago Tribune :
"The Japanese shipping company that operates the Crystal, Nippon Yusen K.K., said that the collision happened at 1:30 a.m., an hour before the Navy said it occurred. Marine traffic data showed the Crystal making a sudden U-turn because it went back to check on the destroyer, company spokeswoman Manami Meguro said."

I looked at the track extensively yesterday and the 16:30z, 01:30L is the only thing that makes any sense.

And simply put, the fact that the USN is unsure, makes me think the bridge watch was, is oblivious.

Because the simple fact is they let their ship get hit.

Whether right or wrong, there is probably no one on this TF who has never had to take evasive action to get our boats away from some moron.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:47 AM   #63
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Russian hacking?
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Old 06-19-2017, 09:29 AM   #64
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No matter how you look at this, the USN will not look good.

Even if it was deliberate, which I very much doubt, how to you let a ship that can go 35+ knots get hit by a container ship going 18??
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:27 AM   #65
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Until they shake out the details, shelving the conspiracy theories might be approiate. Right leaning radio host will and are, I am certain, covering that presumption sufficiently to fire up their disciples. Until I am shown otherwise, this appears to me to be a horrific, tragic accident caused irresponsible ball dropping by crew members on our destroyer and/or the other, most likely both. Rules of the road, for the Fitzgerald, is NO excuse.

It does seem strange that this would happen with AIS, Radar and on the Naval vessel actual lookouts, assigned to, well, lookout. The dominos were just lined up perfectly I guess. As an ex destroyer sailor with a GREAT deal of bridge time, including lookout, I find it hard to understand how this could have happened. My knee jerk reaction looks to fault at the OOD and the CIC team of the Fitzgerald. They are manned 10x over the Merch. and the safety of the ship under ALL conditions, including combat, is paramount. The black boxes, witnesses and other historical data will tell the tale.

No doubt, after the dust settles, the Captain will be relieved if not already, there will be more than one Court Marshall. I see OOD for certain, and a world of S.H.I.T. coming down on lookouts, radarmen and perhaps more. Bottom line, there is no acceptable excuse for the duty crew of the destroyer. Again, including Rules of the road. Period!

Hate to be so hard on them, but I hold them to a higher standard because of my background.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:50 AM   #66
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Not wanting to jump on the condemnation bandwagon here but as Mule said, how the hell does a Navy ship get rammed by a merchant ship of that size and nobody sees it coming. The US Navy, I would think, would be considered some of the best seamen in the world.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:11 AM   #67
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At around 1615, the freighter made a course change from 86 to 70deg. I could see the two ships on a roughly parallel course, then when freighter turned 15deg left, then the two began to close. 15deg angle at 18kts makes the targets close at about 4.7kts. If a mile apart, that would close in 15min.

Maybe the Fitz had a fix on the freighter and it was behind them, slowly overtaking and parallel. Course change made, distance closed and in the 15min no one noticed. They may have had lookouts and bridge staff looking forward, but this thing was approaching from aft stbd qtr. When contact was made, probably initially on freighters hurricane brow, it rolled the freighter to stbd and bulbous bow hit the Fitz near the chine. Since both were going near same speed and approach angle was like 15deg, neither drug along the other. Big sonar dome on Fitz probably acted like a rudder and both stuck together swung to stbd explaining that 90deg freighter turn at 1630.

Who says I can't speculate some???

Frustrating that it will be a long time before we get the actual details...
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:18 AM   #68
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Are you saying there are no leaks in the US Navy?
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:20 AM   #69
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Old 06-19-2017, 01:30 PM   #70
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The reason this is so upsetting for me is that I'd like to think our Navy ships can go toe to toe with any ship in the world. If they can't protect themselves against a freighter, they don't stand a chance against an armed ship with stealth technology and hostile intentions.

I don't like the idea that our Navy is so fragile.
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Old 06-19-2017, 02:46 PM   #71
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Wifey B: Humans screw up and sometimes they do so badly. Thing is that the experiments without humans have had their share of issues too so far.

Of course that's also why you have enough crew members aboard ships so that one person making a mistake gets caught and corrected. That's how you decrease the odds of an event like this one significantly and that's what makes a collision like this one so shocking is that it took quite a few people screwing up, at the same time. You try to reduce the probability of something like this to as near zero as possible, but you never eliminate it completely.

People immediately think of Captains being relieved from their positions but that's not by any means the worst thing that happens to any of them. They spend the rest of their lives dealing with the loss of the lives of 7 shipmates. 7 people died but a lot of other lives including their families and shipmates have been altered forever.

We want to know why. Hopefully to avoid future accidents, not just to lay blame. I imagine many, including those who did nothing wrong, are blaming themselves heavily right now, at least internally.
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:11 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benthic2 View Post
The reason this is so upsetting for me is that I'd like to think our Navy ships can go toe to toe with any ship in the world. If they can't protect themselves against a freighter, they don't stand a chance against an armed ship with stealth technology and hostile intentions.

I don't like the idea that our Navy is so fragile.
While I agree....

1. Everyone and everything in the military can get caught off guard sometimes.

2.Tterrorism, whether small time or big time can be almost impossoble to stop sometimes.

3. The war against terror is relentless, the way against human error to prevent incidents is also relentless.

4. Someone or several decided to close watertight doors trapping crewman in flooding spaces. True it is horrific, but is part of the responsibility of command.

To think these types of incidents should never happen is a great goal....we havent arrived yet.
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Old 06-19-2017, 03:34 PM   #73
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A couple of things I haven't seen mentioned here. First if the DDG had engine problems, as some seen to think, She should have had NOT UNDER COMMAND lights showing. These lights mean that there is something wrong with the ship and other vessels need to stay away. When Restricted IN ABILITY TO MANEUVER lights show, means I'm restricted because of my work

The other thing I noticed is nobody has mentioned that this could have been an overtaking situation, as some of the computer picture have suggested as well as the damage to the freighter shows in the pictures. All the damage to the freighter is on the port side, and almost none on the bow, until about 10 ft, back. That suggests the freighter was overtaking the DDG and the rules are very clear in that the OVERTAKING vessel must keep clear, and the OVERTAKEN vessel should maintain course and speed.

I'm sure we will hear more about this in time, hopefully we can all learn something from this tragic accident
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:28 PM   #74
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The Japanese Coast Guard is trying to determine why a large Philippine ship took almost an hour to report its collision with the U.S.S. Fitzgerald off the coast of Japan on Saturday.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ml?nytapp=ipad
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:37 PM   #75
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I would imagine that it will be very clear as to when the collision occurred after reviewing the logs on board the Fitzgerald. Also, I would be surprised if the Fitzgerald didn't make a few calls almost immediately after the collision. The time those calls were received would clearly indicate when the collision occurred.
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:57 PM   #76
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It's all mental masturbation at this point. In time the facts will surface and be disputed and probably a trial will determine fault or percentage of fault. Then we will still argue about fault.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:11 PM   #77
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From the Crystal's high waterline in the photo I'm guessing those are empty containers. So the bulb wouldn't have been very deep and I'm sure it did some major damage to the Fitz that we can't see.
There are many stories of small boats at sea firing flares at night to alert a commercial ship's watch, with no response by course change or on the radio.

http://m.fecalface.com/SF/component/...container-ship
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:28 PM   #78
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I'm going to the bone, I want blood...
There are 7 dead sailors, a very expensive ship almost destroy it and (pardon my french) somebody is gonna freaking pay for that.
We (people who pay tax every april) pay an horrible amount of money to have this boats all around the world, keeping peace (the politic of the gunners, UK know a lot about it).
We live in an illusion navy is untouchable and still signing very expensive bill of sale for new ships.
Yes, you can drop the ball time to time.. but if you drop the ball and punch the wrong button, people died.. and that's wrong and bad.
Navy commander get paid for that responsibility. I do not care if was our ship, the container or freaking Jesus coming down from the highest. I demand professionalism and responsibility from every single sailor on board simply because we pay for that.
Sorry for the rant, I'm very tired to read about forgiveness people who think "oh well.. shit happened.."
7 dead sailors is a large amount of sailor. I hope responsable roten at Leavenworth or Guantanamo or wherever...
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:55 PM   #79
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Wow, I hope I get to be judge and jury for your next mistake.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:06 PM   #80
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I couldn't hope for anyone more fair to be a judge of me and also be one of my peers at the same time.
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