Money upon closing

[Comodave]

PMM is PassageMaker Magazine. It used to be a great mag but has gone down in quality severely since the founder sold it to some publisher. If you can find PMMs from the early 2000s they would be a good resource for you to deepen your knowledge. However I just let the subscription lapse since they are just fluff and ads now, IMO.

 

[Shrew]

1) Did you hire the broker as a buyer's broker? Or is this the listing broker that you're dealing with?

2) The process should be as follows:

a) View the boat
b) Make an offer with a signed P&S and a good faith (refundable) deposit with stipulations (subject to successful survey, sea trial and (if necessary) financing, insurance, sale of currently owned boat, etc).
c) Survey
d) IF Survey goes well, then seatrial.
e) renegotiate based on results of survey and seatrial. The owner might offer to fix, or the owner might offer to reduce price. The owner might accept a reduced price based on the items in the survey.
f) Close on the boat and pay for it.

The window issues you identified in Step A should be addressed step E along with any other issues identified. When the broker says "It'll get taken care of in the survey", what he means is, they will be identified in step C and addressed in Step E.

 

[syjos]

Syjos it would be fun to meet some time after purchase, My boats in Fisherman's Terminal.

I wished I got Matt Harris for his specialty in CHBs. But I went with a friend and RN that used cale Mathers twice. It also happened to be the person the broker picked.

Is it ok to have a surveyor picked by the broker?

It sounds like you spent a lot after purchasing the boat. Were you able to include repairs in your financing? Is that possible?

Meet after the pandemic is over.

Never, never, never, never use a surveyor recommended by the broker. The surveyor wants repeat business and doesn't want to alienate the broker by killing a deal. The broker is not going to recommend a thorough deal killing surveyor.

When we sold the Mainship in 2000, the buyer used a surveyor recommended by the broker.
He did not discover or report several deficiencies that I knew existed. The boat had a Perkins Range 4 which doesn't require zincs in the coolers but the surveyor said that zincs were missing and recommended putting them in. We argued about the need or not for the zincs.

I finally challenged him in front of the buyer that if he could prove the zincs are required by the engine manufacturer, I would pay for the buyers survey. But if he was wrong, the buyer would get a free survey. The surveyor backed down immediately and said he misidentified the engine.

Never have the surveyor survey an engine or generator. Hire a mechanic that specializes in your brand engine.

A client hired me to assess a "few" blisters mentioned in the prepurchase survey on his Navigator. He used a surveyor recommended by his broker. On the day of the hull inspection haul out, the broker told the client that the haul out was scheduled for 9 am. Client arrives at boat on time and it's already out of the water. Broker said Travel lift was available early due to a cancellation. Client saw a few minor blisters, the seller knocked $3,000 off the price for the blister repair and closed on boat.

He used the boat for the summer and decided to haul the boat and repair the blisters himself and hired me to show him how. We were at the Travel lift when the hull came out of the water. The bottom was completely covered in blisters. Thousands of blisters from 1/8" to 2". Client was devastated. He was unsuccessful getting satisfaction from the broker, seller and Navigator. It cost him $17,000 to have blisters peeled and bottom repaired.

We paid cash for Sandpiper and repairs were spread out over 20 years. I'm still not done!

Some banks will let you finance repairs but will have requirements for post repair inspection, escrow disbursement of funds etc.

I used Matt with all my clients buying boats. If I was selling a boat and Matt was hired to survey, I'd probably start crying.

 

[Airstream345]

I used Matt with all my clients buying boats. If I was selling a boat and Matt was hired to survey, I'd probably start crying.

Ha! We used Matt on this last purchase (after many recommendations including a recommendation directly from Krogen in Stuart FL) and Kevin for the engine and genny. When I told the broker he literally (and I assume accidentally) said "Aw, Sh!t!"

Perfect!

Ducati - you WANT your surveyor to be thorough so you can make a condition determination. The outcomes are then go/no-go or re-negotiation (repair or discount) or if it's in "Good" to "Bristol" condition you have a list of known issues you can address after closing.

 

[syjos]

Ha! We used Matt on this last purchase (after many recommendations including a recommendation directly from Krogen in Stuart FL) and Kevin for the engine and genny. When I told the broker he literally (and I assume accidentally) said "Aw, Sh!t!"

Perfect!

Ducati - you WANT your surveyor to be thorough so you can make a condition determination. The outcomes are then go/no-go or re-negotiation (repair or discount) or if it's in "Good" to "Bristol" condition you have a list of known issues you can address after closing.

Airstream Steve,

I'm not selling Sandpiper until Matt is retired to avoid him being hired for the survey.

 

[Portage_Bay]

To the OP. Yes, I walked based on expensive findings. During survey. Cost to remedy the main findings would have far exceeded the purchase price. It was so bad the seller would have had to pay me to take the boat. I did learn from that surveyor how to assess a boat for water damage. Not that I can pass myself off as a surveyor. But I'm confident that I can now in about 4 hrs determine if the boat is sound enough with respect to water damage to decks, house and hull to be worth spending money for a survey.

Next boat I offered 10% below asking based on my pre-survey findings. That was a 50 - 50 split on obvious costs.

After survey I tried to negotiate down further based on estimates for work needed. Again going for 50 - 50. Seller would not budge, we were at about a long stand off until I caved and met his price.

The surveyors, both hull and machinery, missed some big expensive items. I won't disparage the surveyors here in public, All professionals make mistakes at times. If any want to know who and what they missed PM me.

You can't ask the forum for a dollar value on negotiating for defects found in survey. It all depends upon you and the seller. Simply put how bad does the seller want to sell and how bad to you want the boat.

I will offer additional, perhaps unwanted advice. The threads you start indicate a level of financial nervousness that you need to pay attention to. If the purchase and costs associated with survey are making you nervous listen to your gut. This boat, any boat for that matter, will cost you more than you can imagine. An often stated truism is "Fuel is the least expense you will put into the boat". In other words, think about filling the tanks at $3 or $4 / gallon and realize that is a relatively minor expense.

 

[GH41]

To the OP. Yes, I walked based on expensive findings. During survey. Cost to remedy the main findings would have far exceeded the purchase price. It was so bad the seller would have had to pay me to take the boat. I did learn from that surveyor how to assess a boat for water damage. Not that I can pass myself off as a surveyor. But I'm confident that I can now in about 4 hrs determine if the boat is sound enough with respect to water damage to decks, house and hull to be worth spending money for a survey.

Next boat I offered 10% below asking based on my pre-survey findings. That was a 50 - 50 split on obvious costs.

After survey I tried to negotiate down further based on estimates for work needed. Again going for 50 - 50. Seller would not budge, we were at about a long stand off until I caved and met his price.

The surveyors, both hull and machinery, missed some big expensive items. I won't disparage the surveyors here in public, All professionals make mistakes at times. If any want to know who and what they missed PM me.

You can't ask the forum for a dollar value on negotiating for defects found in survey. It all depends upon you and the seller. Simply put how bad does the seller want to sell and how bad to you want the boat.

I will offer additional, perhaps unwanted advice. The threads you start indicate a level of financial nervousness that you need to pay attention to. If the purchase and costs associated with survey are making you nervous listen to your gut. This boat, any boat for that matter, will cost you more than you can imagine. An often stated truism is "Fuel is the least expense you will put into the boat". In other words, think about filling the tanks at $3 or $4 / gallon and realize that is a relatively minor expense.

Your and many others logic is what he refuses to listen to. If he has to sweat financing, insurance and survey related expenses he doesn't need 33 year old boat. It will eat him alive.

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

A couple of things I didn't catch in reading this, 1 get a buyers broker he or she can be objective and give you an idea of what the boat is worth pre survey, using sold boats. com.... Make sure you use a surveyor not recommended by the seller or their broker, you can ask your broker but you have good referrals already. Don't not buy a boat without a mechanical survey, Kevin Ambrose as mentioned before is good. Find out about insurance before you buy, it sounds like you have little experience with a larger boat, insurance costs may surprise you and not in a good way. Moorage may be another issue, does existing moorage transfer to you when you buy the boat?


All these need to sorted out prior to writing the big check.... good luck

 

[BandB]

I will offer additional, perhaps unwanted advice. The threads you start indicate a level of financial nervousness that you need to pay attention to. If the purchase and costs associated with survey are making you nervous listen to your gut. This boat, any boat for that matter, will cost you more than you can imagine. An often stated truism is "Fuel is the least expense you will put into the boat". In other words, think about filling the tanks at $3 or $4 / gallon and realize that is a relatively minor expense.

You post in a forum asking questions and you must be prepared for the answers even if you don't like them. I've tried as have others to point out the initial and ongoing costs and our worry over the OP's worry. I'll reiterate, if buying or owning a boat is going to stress you either financially or emotionally, cause you worry you don't presently have, then do not get one. Boating is intended to improve quality of life but for a few it does the opposite. Simple worry free lives are quickly complicated by debt and ongoing expenses. To a non-boat owner, spending a few thousand dollars on a survey for a boat they may then not buy sounds insane. To a boat owner the survey and sea trial are what protect our sanity.

I think you and your spouse need to be honest with yourselves and decide if boat ownership is right for you at this time. Plenty of other ways to boat that don't require the investment from rentals to charters to friends.

I'm not talking about whether someone can afford a boat or not, but whether they can own one without feeling undue stress.

 

[Comodave]

A couple of things I didn't catch in reading this, 1 get a buyers broker he or she can be objective and give you an idea of what the boat is worth pre survey, using sold boats. com.... Make sure you use a surveyor not recommended by the seller or their broker, you can ask your broker but you have good referrals already. Don't not buy a boat without a mechanical survey, Kevin Ambrose as mentioned before is good. Find out about insurance before you buy, it sounds like you have little experience with a larger boat, insurance costs may surprise you and not in a good way. Moorage may be another issue, does existing moorage transfer to you when you buy the boat?


All these need to sorted out prior to writing the big check.... good luck

Be careful about getting a buyers broker if you have made contact with the sellers broker. If you have made contact with the sellers broker they will probably deny the buyers broker a split in the commission and you will be on the hook for payment to the buyers broker. If you have not made contact with the sellers broker, don’t contact them. Let your buyers broker make the contact so everyone is on the same page about who is paying the buyers broker.

 

[syjos]

A buyers broker, if they actually exist, are not 100% objective. Their income is commission on the sale price that is split with sellers broker. Whenever commission is involved, the goal is higher sale price to earn a higher commission. Of course the buyers broker will negotiate down to what is reasonable for him/her to make sure a sale is the end result. But he/she will most likely not negotiate to the bottom price.

A buyers consultant charges by the hour or fee.

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

A buyers broker, if they actually exist, are not 100% objective. Their income is commission on the sale price that is split with sellers broker. Whenever commission is involved, the goal is higher sale price to earn a higher commission. Of course the buyers broker will negotiate down to what is reasonable for him/her to make sure a sale is the end result. But he/she will most likely not negotiate to the bottom price.

A buyers consultant charges by the hour or fee.

You can call a buyers broker, a consultant, a buyers rep. or anything else you like. Whatever you call them or however you pay them.... If you don't have the intimate knowledge of fair value, condition, negotiation, a variety of trusted boating professionals necessary to fill the void of your knowledge and mostly to hold your hand during the boat shopping and acquisition, the odds of having a successful buying/owning experience is greatly reduced.

 

[Codger2]

If the purchase and costs associated with survey are making you nervous listen to your gut. This boat, any boat for that matter, will cost you more than you can imagine. An often stated truism is "Fuel is the least expense you will put into the boat". In other words, think about filling the tanks at $3 or $4 / gallon and realize that is a relatively minor expense.

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[syjos]

You can call a buyers broker, a consultant, a buyers rep. or anything else you like. Whatever you call them or however you pay them.... If you don't have the intimate knowledge of fair value, condition, negotiation, a variety of trusted boating professionals necessary to fill the void of your knowledge and mostly to hold your hand during the boat shopping and acquisition, the odds of having a successful buying/owning experience is greatly reduced.

Most new boaters don't have the experience or knowledge to make prudent decisions when it comes to buying their first big boat. They certainly will not posses intimate knowledge of the important points on your list.

Many boaters with a few years of boat ownership also make poor decisions when buying a different type or bigger boat.

A buyers consultant, along with a boat handling instructor can take a brand new boater from 0 to 60 in a shorter time and guide the boat buyer away from issues.

Not everyone had or has the luxury of a lifetime of boating, moving up in size as experience and seamanship skills are gained.

 

[syjos]

You post in a forum asking questions and you must be prepared for the answers even if you don't like them. I've tried as have others to point out the initial and ongoing costs and our worry over the OP's worry. I'll reiterate, if buying or owning a boat is going to stress you either financially or emotionally, cause you worry you don't presently have, then do not get one. Boating is intended to improve quality of life but for a few it does the opposite. Simple worry free lives are quickly complicated by debt and ongoing expenses. To a non-boat owner, spending a few thousand dollars on a survey for a boat they may then not buy sounds insane. To a boat owner the survey and sea trial are what protect our sanity.

I think you and your spouse need to be honest with yourselves and decide if boat ownership is right for you at this time. Plenty of other ways to boat that don't require the investment from rentals to charters to friends.

I'm not talking about whether someone can afford a boat or not, but whether they can own one without feeling undue stress.

This is really good advice! Especially about quality of life.

I've observed too many new boaters leave boating because of the new stress brought on by the boat purchase, debt, ongoing expenses etc.

It would be interesting to see what percentage of new boat owners continue boating for 5 or 10 plus years.

 

[Hawkshaw1]

I just went thru this when purchasing a Mainship 390 (and it seems like a ship compared to my 20' runabout). The surveyor found several issues, mostly cosmetic and not hidden. The most serious was the front AC unit was not blowing cold air. I was there, the compressor was warm, water was flowing. Two of the bilge pumps were not working on automatic but we found two in a drawer that were brand new. in short, I asked for a deduction of $2200 to repair the front AC (about what it costs to replace the whole thing). it didn't seem fair to me to ask for an adjustment for an cosmetic issues because I could see them and should have adjusted my offer based on what I saw (I did). The bilge pumps weren't much of an issue considering I found replacements. The prop needed $225 for fix dings but I didn't think I should ask for an adjustment because we found a brand new one stored in the engine room.
In addition to all this my offer was the first offer after a significant reduction in the asking price and frankly, I didn't want to lose it.

 

[Tangler]

I think surveys are a big scam...just like home inspections when you buy a house...ever read one? Page after page of “ not responsible, not responsible, not responsible... We had 4 surveys over 11 years and they all read the same and were all wrong...lots f things missed that I had to fix. If it were not for insurance demanding a survey I would not do it. Just sold my boat without a survey...the buyer realized I had done as much as possible to keep her seaworthy and that she was an OLD boat...I.e. not perfect and never would be but the care and attention I applied to her was obvious we were both confident a survey would find nothing significant. His insurance will still want one anyway even tho I did one last year that I’m sure they will not accept...

 

[bshillam]

A buyers broker, if they actually exist, are not 100% objective. Their income is commission on the sale price that is split with sellers broker. Whenever commission is involved, the goal is higher sale price to earn a higher commission. Of course the buyers broker will negotiate down to what is reasonable for him/her to make sure a sale is the end result. But he/she will most likely not negotiate to the bottom price.

A buyers consultant charges by the hour or fee.

Not true, this is based off some assumptions. I can tell you for a fact that there are some really great commission based professionals that will work very diligently to benefit their clients. I have gotten tens of thousands of dollars sometimes to the tune of over $100k off purchases for my clients. Having no concern over any commission. Reason - it's my ethical obligation to represent my clients best interest over mine. I subscribe to a set of ethics, period. Now not to say there aren't others that will do other wise. (In any field)
What I would say, get a referral and talk to your professional about how they handle their business. Ask questions. I would be happy to talk to someone about my approach to commissions and work ethic. A true professionals drive comes from accomplishment (achieving success for the client) and the commission follows, not the other way around.

 

[syjos]

I think surveys are a big scam...just like home inspections when you buy a house...ever read one? Page after page of “ not responsible, not responsible, not responsible... We had 4 surveys over 11 years and they all read the same and were all wrong...lots f things missed that I had to fix. If it were not for insurance demanding a survey I would not do it. Just sold my boat without a survey...the buyer realized I had done as much as possible to keep her seaworthy and that she was an OLD boat...I.e. not perfect and never would be but the care and attention I applied to her was obvious we were both confident a survey would find nothing significant. His insurance will still want one anyway even tho I did one last year that I’m sure they will not accept...

You haven't experienced a Matt Harris survey.

 

[syjos]

Not true, this is based off some assumptions. I can tell you for a fact that there are some really great commission based professionals that will work very diligently to benefit their clients. I have gotten tens of thousands of dollars sometimes to the tune of over $100k off purchases for my clients. Having no concern over any commission. Reason - it's my ethical obligation to represent my clients best interest over mine. I subscribe to a set of ethics, period. Now not to say there aren't others that will do other wise. (In any field)
What I would say, get a referral and talk to your professional about how they handle their business. Ask questions. I would be happy to talk to someone about my approach to commissions and work ethic. A true professionals drive comes from accomplishment (achieving success for the client) and the commission follows, not the other way around.

You are one of the few good ones.

I worked with probably 50 - 70 brokers when working as a buyers consultant and boat handling instructor. About 25 percent were as you described. The rest were not motivated to become a great broker. A lot of brokers are old retired guys that "know boats" and work part time at a brokerage for something to do and maybe make a few bucks.

Commission based salespeople in Real Estate, car sales, mattress sales etc are similar. A small percentage of the "Hot Dogs" make the majority of the sales.

When I found an excellent broker in an area, I recommended them to clients and used them frequently.

 

[Portage_Bay]

You haven't experienced a Matt Harris survey.

All surveyors miss things. Sometimes expensive things. Yes, I've used Harris, so I do mean ALL surveyors. Be sure to leave plenty of room in your budget for the unexpected.

Between personal purchases and employers purchase I've commissioned 7 surveys. Harris was the best. I would use him again. But he did miss major items.

 

[GH41]

All surveyors miss things. Sometimes expensive things. Yes, I've used Harris, so I do mean ALL surveyors. Be sure to leave plenty of room in your budget for the unexpected.

Between personal purchases and employers purchase I've commissioned 7 surveys. Harris was the best. I would use him again. But he did miss major items.

Let me ask you a question.. How much do you pay for a survey not counting the cost of hauling?

 

[Portage_Bay]

That will depend upon the size of the boat, the location and the surveyor. There is no one size fits all answer. I no longer have the invoices so I'd be relying on memory. In other words guessing....

 

[magna 6882]

Airstream Steve,

I'm not selling Sandpiper until Matt is retired to avoid him being hired for the survey.

Even though i am buying a new boat i have Matt online to do a survey. He said since the boats on warranty he would like to do the survey after i have ran it a bit.
When i told the guys doing the commissioning i got a bit of eye roll with a notation"he is really picky"
That told me i made the right decision.
I also must note i got matts name from syjos when i started shopping.

 

[BandB]

I think surveys are a big scam...just like home inspections when you buy a house...ever read one? Page after page of “ not responsible, not responsible, not responsible... We had 4 surveys over 11 years and they all read the same and were all wrong...lots f things missed that I had to fix. If it were not for insurance demanding a survey I would not do it. Just sold my boat without a survey...the buyer realized I had done as much as possible to keep her seaworthy and that she was an OLD boat...I.e. not perfect and never would be but the care and attention I applied to her was obvious we were both confident a survey would find nothing significant. His insurance will still want one anyway even tho I did one last year that I’m sure they will not accept...

Perhaps the problem is you aren't good at selecting surveyors? I know some who do excellent work.

 

[syjos]

Even though i am buying a new boat i have Matt online to do a survey. He said since the boats on warranty he would like to do the survey after i have ran it a bit.
When i told the guys doing the commissioning i got a bit of eye roll with a notation"he is really picky"
That told me i made the right decision.
I also must note i got matts name from syjos when i started shopping.

All right! He really is the best.

You will not be disappointed. He usually spends 25 to 30 percent more time on a boat than other surveyors. On a couple 40' - 50' surveys, he came back the second day to complete what he missed on the previous day. Who does that?

 

[GH41]

That will depend upon the size of the boat, the location and the surveyor. There is no one size fits all answer. I no longer have the invoices so I'd be relying on memory. In other words guessing....

Let's say it is a 36-44 L/F vessel like the OP bought. Just give me a idea of what the average cost would be.

 

[bgillroy]

Surveyors should be NAMS or SAMS trained. Should have website with posted surveys so you see what you'll get for the fee. Compare survey quality to price. You'll get a C&V survey you'll need for insurance. The C&V will provide FMV and list of deficiencies by category ( minor to major). The list of findings becomes your roadmap for final negotiation and the repairs.

 

[Portage_Bay]

It's not possible to give you a meaningful number. Let's start with location. You are east coast, I am west coast.

Other considerations affecting cost are discussed here https://marineconsultantsinc.com/index2.html on Matt Harris's web site. The surveyor mentioned several times in this thread.

In the last 4 yrs I have commissioned 3 surveys of 35ft to 45ft boats on the west coast. If memory serves the hull and condition survey costs ran between $800 and $2500. Engine surveys ran between $400 and $800.

All of the hull and condition surveyors were very good and very thorough. And they ALL missed expensive to correct items. The engine surveyors were good with one exception.

Let's say it is a 36-44 L/F vessel like the OP bought. Just give me a idea of what the average cost would be.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I will offer a suggestion. Rather than rely on word of mouth, online forums or a broker's list of contacts go to a service yard you will likely use post purchase and chat them up. You may find them reluctant to name a surveyor but be friendly, polite and persistent. Yard managers have no skin in the game but they do know who is good and who isn't.