Mix auto transmission fluid in diesel fuel?

[Steve DAntonio]

LOL kind of difficult to answer a hypothetical, but I trust my mechanic and he uses the ATF fluid in his nearly identical truck, and we both work them pretty hard pulling trailers, etc. I think his reasoning is the lowered quality of diesel today causing injectors to clog and pumps to fail.

Lowered quality of diesel? What's that based on? You can get off spec fuel, with low lubricity, but it's rare, thousands of over the road trucks consume millions of gallons of diesel and most use no additives, same with commercial and military marine diesels.

I have a Ford F250 7.3L diesel, turbo, 1996, owned from new. I have used Stanadyne Performance Formula in the fuel almost from new. Never a fuel related problem, in fact almost no problems with this engine, I love it.

However, is that because of the Stanadyne? No way to be sure without a control, most people who run this same engine, UPS, ambulances, tow trucks, roach coaches etc. add nothing to the fuel and its longevity is legendary.

I caution folks about home-brew fuel additives, and all fuel additives for that matter, without testing, there is no way to know if it's helping, or hurting. ATF isn't cheap, you could buy a proven product like Stanadyne and use that with greater peace of mind.

More here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/diesel-fuel-additives-part-i/

 

[4blade1]

There is a youtube channel "Project Farm" This guy does some amazing at home testing of all kinds of products. He did one on diesel fuel additives. It was very interesting.

I love project Farm. What I like best is that he does use a pretty sound Scientific method unlike other Youtuber's that are just on the channel to make $$.

 

[ronobrien]

Lowered quality of diesel? What's that based on? You can get off spec fuel, with low lubricity, but it's rare, thousands of over the road trucks consume millions of gallons of diesel and most use no additives, same with commercial and military marine diesels.

I have a Ford F250 7.3L diesel, turbo, 1996, owned from new. I have used Stanadyne Performance Formula in the fuel almost from new. Never a fuel related problem, in fact almost no problems with this engine, I love it.

However, is that because of the Stanadyne? No way to be sure without a control, most people who run this same engine, UPS, ambulances, tow trucks, roach coaches etc. add nothing to the fuel and its longevity is legendary.

I caution folks about home-brew fuel additives, and all fuel additives for that matter, without testing, there is no way to know if it's helping, or hurting. ATF isn't cheap, you could buy a proven product like Stanadyne and use that with greater peace of mind.

More here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/diesel-fuel-additives-part-i/

The older diesels (as many of these trawlers are) had different requirements than the newer engines. The sulfur content may be the "lower quality" being referred to.

 

[JDCAVE]

I have read this document several times. Full of good information:

https://www.chevron.com/-/media/chevron/operations/documents/diesel-fuel-tech-review.pdf

Pages 89-98 covers diesel additives. In closing the author writes:

“It may be helpful to regard additives as medicine for fuel. Like medicine, they should be prescribed by an expert who has made an effort to diagnose the problem, as well as the underlying causes. Additives should be used in accordance with the recommendations of the engine manufacturer, and the instructions of the additive supplier. Sometimes, indiscriminant use of additives can do more harm than good because of unexpected interactions.”

I had a discussion with Bob Senter, Northern Lights on this and he mentioned a study that John Deere had conducted and they concluded that Stanadyne was a good idea, however that was for farm vehicles, which operate in cold environments.

I myself add nothing. I have asked my sister-in-law, a now retired engineer with Chevron if there was an update on this document and she was going to check with a colleague to see if there was one. She has not reported back yet.

I was surprised myself that diesel was not an exact formulation but varied from refinery to refinery depending on their “feedstock”. It’s actually a fairly complicated mix of stuff. It also varied with the time of year.

In closing none of the commercial operators I’m aware of add anything at all to their fuel. Many of these vessels have 30-50,000 hours on their engines. With their large fuel tanks the cost of adding Stanodyne would be very high.

Anyways the doc is worth reading.

Jim

 

[Steel N Time]

Lowered quality of diesel? What's that based on? You can get off spec fuel, with low lubricity, but it's rare, thousands of over the road trucks consume millions of gallons of diesel and most use no additives, same with commercial and military marine diesels.

I have a Ford F250 7.3L diesel, turbo, 1996, owned from new. I have used Stanadyne Performance Formula in the fuel almost from new. Never a fuel related problem, in fact almost no problems with this engine, I love it.

However, is that because of the Stanadyne? No way to be sure without a control, most people who run this same engine, UPS, ambulances, tow trucks, roach coaches etc. add nothing to the fuel and its longevity is legendary.

I caution folks about home-brew fuel additives, and all fuel additives for that matter, without testing, there is no way to know if it's helping, or hurting. ATF isn't cheap, you could buy a proven product like Stanadyne and use that with greater peace of mind.

More here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/diesel-fuel-additives-part-i/

Comparing consumer used boats or trucks to that which is used regularly and continued is not a good comparison. Commercial trucks and boats are continuous duty and will almost always last longer (hours or miles) than engines in recreational boats or consumer driven vehicles. They may not need any additives, because they are continually using them and burning off stuff that might settle and stick only to be burnt back on and become hard deposits. Consumers hot, cold, on, off, occasional periods of non use just are not a realistic comparison..


The International VT365 (Ford 6.0) has a decent track record in school busses and bread vans where it’s commercial use is only 190 HP….. Tune it up to 350 hp and call it a Ford 6.0 Powerstroke and watch it blow head gaskets..?

 

[JDCAVE]

From the above document, this is interesting:

“FUELS FOR MARINE DIESEL ENGINES A variety of fuels are available for marine diesel engines. There is a set of four marine distillate fuels, some of which contain small amounts of resid3, and a set of 15 marine residual fuels in which resid is the majority constituent. Marine fuels range in viscosity from less than one centistoke (cSt) to about 700 cSt at 50°C (122°F). (1 cSt = 1 mm2/s.) The higher viscosity grades are preheated during use to bring their viscosity into the range suitable for injection (8 to 27 cSt). Marine fuels also contain more sulfur than on-road diesel fuel, although, in some areas and ports, only low sulfur fuels are permitted. The maximum sulfur limit varies from 1 to 4.5 percent by mass for different grades and Sulfur Emission Control Areas (SECAs). Several organizations issue marine fuel specifications. ISO 8217 of the International Standards Organization (ISO) is the primary standard. The International Maritime Organization (IMO) also develops regulations for shipping. Among the measures adopted within IMO is MARPOL (the International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships); this is the main international convention covering the prevention of operational or accidental pollution of the marine environment by ships. MARPOL Annex VI also limits the usage of fuels to prevent air pollution. The shipping industry prefers higherviscosity residual fuels because they are less expensive. Although residual fuels do not burn as readily as distillate fuels, the slow speeds (60 to 200 rpm) of the large marine engines allow more time for combustion to occur.”

I am aware that some of the “big boys” burn a fuel that is so thick it must be pre heated to some degree. Still I’m not sure how the fuel available to the local marine users compares with land fuels. I thought it was the same but I’m not certain.

Jim

 

[Trawlerman]

Fuel Additives

Have a look at the attached test info of various additives. Albeit, the biofuel one is not too practical for most. Basically, there is not much to be gained. This was ASTM standard wear testing using the HFRR test. Google that if you wish.

 

[timb7734]

So much baloney! I owned 250 heavy duty diesel trucks in a fleet that operated 110,000 miles per year. A truck with 500,000 miles was normal in three or four years. The miles to hours equivalent is 45 mph average meaning heavy trucks are expected to exceed 11-12,000 hours of operation, and manufacturers provide warranties up to year five. This is all accomplished with the manufacturers questioning warranties when additives are used. This is because additives do little or nothing. One exception has been quoted to be the pre nineties engines not suited for low sulphur fuel, but along the way the fuel has been adjusted for lubricity or why would you think newer engines would tolerate it? So that’s even bunk. To quote TOMMY BOY: I can stick my hand up a cows ass to find a good steak, but aren’t I better off trusting the butcher? Fuel can vary from refinery to refinery based on feedstock, but it’s made like a McDonalds to taste the same (spec the same) all over the country. Regionally fuel comes from a single source no matter the brand, it the same fuel. Then again if you must insist on believing the superstition and misinformation from that shade tree mechanic/amateur chemist engine designer then please leave the rest of us out of it.

 

[NCheaven]

Additives

256,000 miles Silverado HD 2500, gas, Mobil 1 full synthetic, 6 oz. injector cleaner roughly twice a year, runs great, never needed engine work.

1700 hrs Volvo TAMD41P-A Camano, mostly ValveTect fuel, Biobor JF biocide spring and fall, Full synthetic 15W40 Mobil 1 Diesel or T6 Rotella, runs great. Clear improvement in smoother and quieter running engine when I switched to ValveTect fuel and again when I switched to full synthetic.

Mobil 1 Diesel and Rotella web sites both show improved performance of full synthetics over blends and Dino oils. I verified that current oil grades are inclusive of truck and boat grades in effect at time of manufacturer.

Bottom line, I trust manufacturers’ PhD engineers in setting specs for oil, with current grades that include older, original grades. Hot, humid environment makes Biobor a wise preventative biocide choice. ValveTect fuel - my ears can tell the difference, smoother and quieter.

 

[Handcrafter]

Adding ATF is an old answer for maintaining old diesel engines. In my case it was for a pair of Detroit 671N engines which are pretty dirty engines so to speak. I also switched out the oil filters and replaced with AMSOIL dual screw-on filters, one a 20 micron full flow and the other a 5 micron bypass filter. Those engines were never so clean and the oil can go for hundreds of hours with changing oil filters every 50 hours and topping off oil levels. They sound like some kind of Indy car and run smooth. Really a treat. So, I can say adding ATF to old Diesels can be a good move.

 

[Handcrafter]

PS: The recommended oil for 671 Detroits is straight 40 wt and I use ROTELLA. The head engineer at Mann (they bought Detroit Diesel) says synthetics will actually destroy a two stroke diesel due to the engine creating so much sooty oil and all those synthetic additives are quickly consumed so the oil is no longer lubricating critical parts.

 

[Handcrafter]

Plus, ATF will clean the fuel injectors.

 

[727Gold]

I'm getting to this thread a bit late so I will keep this short and to the point. I spent most of my working years as an officer on US nuclear submarines and we cherished and took care of our diesel engine as it was a lifeline if the reactor plant "had a problem". Bottom line: DFM (Diesel Fuel - Marine) and regular care including a robust trend analysis program - no additives. I have taken the same approach with my little Ford-Lehman 120.

Cheers to all!

 

[cbouch]

Did anyone learn anything from all this “constructive conversation”. The person who started this asked for opinions then seemed to argue against anyone that contradicted his back yard mechanics advice. Let him dump anything he wants into his motors...

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. cb. Yup. People who eat a balance diet and take vitamins have expensive urine.

 

[psneeld]

Did anyone learn anything from all this “constructive conversation”. The person who started this asked for opinions then seemed to argue against anyone that contradicted his back yard mechanics advice. Let him dump anything he wants into his motors...

Said that back in post #25.

A super engineer friend of mine with patents in clean generator tech emailed me and laughed at the tranny fluid Idea... said just how long does any fluid take to dissolve carbon deposits that pouring it in a carb would fix?...he noted there are way bigger engine issues if you have to do that. Why would I believe him when posters here seem so much more credible....

But sure...what do most of us care ( unless we buy their boat) what people dump in their fuel tank or how they run their engines?

Go on any truck forum and meet all the same kind of personalities...guess too many own boats too.

 

[BandB]

Steel N Time

Don't be so naive as to bet on how the emails were deleted.

Now for the subject as a whole. I will consider an additive if, and only if, my engine manufacturer decides to recommend it for my conditions. Until then, no.

 

[Lou_tribal]

One comment on the subject as this thread is heating up.
If any additive would be necessary for engine to last, how many engine failure would we see?
How many people are using additive in diesel engines of all sort? 20%? Let say 50% what I doubt.
This would mean that the 50% remaining would face early engine damage? Far from reality I guess.

L

 

[Steel N Time]

One comment on the subject as this thread is heating up.
If any additive would be necessary for engine to last, how many engine failure would we see?
How many people are using additive in diesel engines of all sort? 20%? Let say 50% what I doubt.
This would mean that the 50% remaining would face early engine damage? Far from reality I guess.

L

No additives are necessary, but…. Can they help is the question. Just because a manufacturer didn’t invent or recommend it can it still be beneficial?

I don’t think there is any way to really quantify. I don’t think he is saying without additives early engine failure occurs. He believes his trans fluid may help extend by helping clean injectors and system components.


Manufacturers are self serving and do tests to prove their products, so all manufacture test are slightly suspect because of their own self interests. I personally think some additives can definitely be beneficial for different components.


I have heard great things about Archoil for example in Ford Powerstrokes, no way to actually quantify, because all people drive differently at different temps, some tow, some drive fast, some use different oils during oil changes…


I think we all agree regular maintenance is the gold standard for any engine, does an additive help?!? Will it eliminate dirty injectors? Will it ultimately lead to a longer engine life? Non of which can be quantified because all our boats are used differently and serviced differently with different products.


I like Startron additive and Biobore… It doesn’t hurt… Maybe I’m a consumer and wasting money… No one will ever know….

 

[Caballero II]

I don't know if it makes sense but I do know that the fact that you have had no problems in 120,000 miles means absolutely nothing. You would be better off using a lubricity improver rather than following some shade-tree mechanic's ignorant advice.

Naw. This comment seems a little too harsh. This is common advice from diesel mechanics to return some lubricity to the fuel in this age of low-sulfur diesel. It's commonly done, and ATF is a "lubricity improver", without being advertised as such.

 

[Steel N Time]

naw. This comment seems a little too harsh. This is common advice from diesel mechanics to return some lubricity to the fuel in this age of low-sulfur diesel. It's commonly done, and atf is a "lubricity improver", without being advertised as such.

100%

 

[BruceK]

Recently the newly commissioned Australian icebreaker delivered 1M litres of special Antarctic blend diesel fuel to our base there. Discharge requires pumping it from offshore via flexible hose to tanks onshore, very carefully, there was an on land spill once. Boats patrol the hose throughout the operation,penguins jumping aboard are repelled.
Anyway, here`s the fuel analysis, a few pages, but the composition seems to be disclosed: https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/c...ervices/data-sheets/antarctic-diesel-fuel.pdf

 

[ghost]

Show me an A/B test and I might believe.

Otherwise I’m reminded of the sheer number and confidence of those who convinced themselves that acetone in fuel was a good idea.

I wonder how many fuel problems would be avoided if the boating magazines simply stopped telling everyone to keep filling up their fuel tanks to a capacity level that all but ensures they haul around huge volumes of fuel they won’t use until old, and then fill em up again.

 

[phillippeterson]

Not saying this means anything, but...

Four F350 diesels and one F450 from 1993 to 2017, 250,000 to 450,000 miles, never an additive of any sort, mostly highway with good loads. Never an engine problem of any sort.

 

[backinblue]

Hi,

if it would be good for a diesel engine, then i would think this information can be found in the manuals, i will just find there "do not add additives" to the oil or fuel.

Hard to believe that Cummins would instruct you to shorten engine life.

Here, the fuel is at least additive lubricated by the injection pump / nozzles, hard to believe you wouldn’t have this in the US.

NBs

Valvtect diesel in the US claims to have all kinds of additives to improve performace, efficiency, longevity, etc. I try to use it exclusively. What do others here think? It's generally no more expensive than common diesel fuel at a dock, so I figure I might as well try to use it.

 

[catalinajack]

Not saying this means anything, but...

Four F350 diesels and one F450 from 1993 to 2017, 250,000 to 450,000 miles, never an additive of any sort, mostly highway with good loads. Never an engine problem of any sort.

And were any of them common rail? If so, you will have injector failures sooner rather than later. It's all about lubricity.

 

[catalinajack]

Naw. This comment seems a little too harsh. This is common advice from diesel mechanics to return some lubricity to the fuel in this age of low-sulfur diesel. It's commonly done, and ATF is a "lubricity improver", without being advertised as such.

I didn't think it was harsh. I just meant that one experience is not indicative of much. In any case, if, if ATF is a lubricity improver then that is a good thing. But how do we know how much per gallon needs to be added to raise lubricity to the standard required by common rail engines? And many lubricity-improving products also raise cetane levels. Does ATF do this also? Seems to me using ATF may be just guesswork with no assurance that the goals being sought are actually reached. Indeed they may be but I am standing by for technical references, sincerely.

 

[catalinajack]

One comment on the subject as this thread is heating up.
If any additive would be necessary for engine to last, how many engine failure would we see?
How many people are using additive in diesel engines of all sort? 20%? Let say 50% what I doubt.
This would mean that the 50% remaining would face early engine damage? Far from reality I guess.

L

It's not engine damage, it's injector and injection pump failure either of which is inexpensive to repair. Witness the Bosch CP4 injection pump explosions on Chevy Duramax engines. These pumps were designed with European lubricity standards in mind. North American lubricity standards are lower. Own a common rail diesel? No lubricity improver used? Some owner down the road will experience a pump,or injectors failure sooner rather than later.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Yes… Algae does not grow in tanks… technically it’s fungus… end result is the same… Algae needs sun light which clearly a dark tank won’t have….

“diesel bug”

More often than not it's bacteria, which is an animal.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

The older diesels (as many of these trawlers are) had different requirements than the newer engines. The sulfur content may be the "lower quality" being referred to.

Change in sulfur content does not affect the "quality" of the fuel. The 7.3L International engine is electronically controlled, hydraulically actuated (HEUI), so not old school per se.

Removal of sulfur, called hydro-treating, does remove some lubricity from fuel, which then must be replaced with additives at the refinery or rack. Again, off spec, low lubricity fuel is rare, but it can happen.

When ULSD was first introduced 20 years ago it did cause shrinkage of O rings and leaks at injection pumps, but those have all been resolved by now. There is no difference in operation, regardless of engine, for high vs. low sulfur diesel. Modern over the road diesels, equipped with catalysts, can't run on high sulfur diesel, but that's only because of the cat.