Mix auto transmission fluid in diesel fuel?

[jgwinks]

It's not being used for lubricity but for its detergent properties. Fairly common practice amongst the so called "ignorant shade tree mechanics" as well as the 2 stroke oil for lubricity.

I just read that in Nigel Calder's diesel engine book. He didn't actually recommend it, but said many people add a quart of 2 stroke oil per 100 gallons when using #1 diesel. Not needed for #2. #1 would be found in home heating and maybe truck supplies in winter as it gels at a lower temperature. Like -20F. If you get your fuel at marina fuel docks, I don't think 2 stroke or ATF would be needed, it should be #2 regardless. If it's cold enough to need #1, they're probably not open and you're not running the boat anyway.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I use this in my fuel tanks twice a year. i gallon per tank (250 Gal).

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/biob...lubricity-additive-16-oz--518696?recordNum=31

and

 

[catalinajack]

It's not being used for lubricity but for its detergent properties. Fairly common practice amongst the so called "ignorant shade tree mechanics" as well as the 2 stroke oil for lubricity.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[catalinajack]

I now have 517,000 miles on my Dodge pickup with a Cummins 6BT 220 HP engine. Never used any additives. It would be interesting to know the history of diesel fuel formulation over the last 50 years. While most are aware of the removal of sulfur which acts as a lubricant, it would be interesting to know what other properties have changed. You have to wonder what other changes were made to be compatible with tier 3 and 4 diesel engines.



The other thought regarding adding ATF to the fuel is whether that effects other things in the fuel formulation. While I can respect a mechanic, I'd rather have someone do the science to see how it effects diesel from tank, through the engine, and out the exhaust.



Ted

Ted, sulfur is not a lubricant. The process of removing sulphur from the fuel decreases lubricity. It is why lubricity improvers, also know as "snake oil", are added to each truckload of diesel at the terminal rack before delivery to retail outlets, marine and land.

 

[catalinajack]

Manufacturers of engines seem to always warn against additives, irrespective of changes in fuel quality because they can't control what you may introduce to your equipment. Besides, they love to void their warranty exposure whenever possible. Low sulfur diesel is bad for engines. Unleaded gas with ethanol is destructive to small engines, yet garden tractors/mowers, etc all warn against using lead additives or alternative fuels (I use leaded gas). The local small engine repair shop recommended it.



The "shade-tree mechanic" I use has kept cars and trucks and farm equipment running in this agriculture community for over forty years. He knows what current fuels do to engines. If he uses ATF in his personal vehicle, I'll call that good.



My question had more to do with diesel engines operating in a marine environment. These old marinized tractor engines, like i have, weren't designed to operate on low-sulfur, low lubricity fuels. Maybe the new diesels are.



The only "additive" system I know of on a diesel here in the states is the DEF where ionized water and urea are sprayed into the exhaust system to cut down on pollution. Owners hate it...just another system to have to monitor.

What most folks do not know is that lubricity improvers (additives) are added to each load of fuel at the terminal rack. The rack is where those long tankers load up on fuel from a pipeline or large holding tank supplied by a pipeline. All diesel fuel, regardless of refiner, arriving at the rack is essentially the same product and is required to have an additive to bring the fuel up to a lubricity standard. The standard is higher in Europe than here in the States. It is the additives that go into the tanker that differentiate. For example, Valvtec has their proprietary additive package. Take the time to read the article below. It will answer all of your questions.

https://fueloilnews.com/2010/03/04/taking-the-mystery-out-of-lubricity/

 

[catalinajack]

Over-the-road trucks use D2, a very different type of diesel which is less volatile. I'd be curious how that affects their engines. I know they get better fuel economy with it.

No, the diesel used by OTR trucks is the very same we use in boats and cars, and pickup trucks, Diesel No. 2.

 

[catalinajack]

Here is a link to a Canadian website for truckers. Note they state that diesel fuel in Canada is better quality than in the states and that "most" Canadian truckers would admit to using additives.
https://www.trucknews.com/transport...-your-diesel-need-a-fuel-additive/1003123578/

Indeed, that is what is stated but the article does not explain why other than saying that there can be inconsistency among delivered products. It also does not explain how it is that this cannot or does not happen among Canadian refiners. Count me a skeptic.

 

[catalinajack]

I haven't seen any references to fuel quality improving over the past two decades other than emissions. Even Cummins is now recommending two additives due to the poor quality of diesel (see above link to Canadian trucker article).

It is NOT because of the poor quality of diesel. The fuel is no different today than it was before pre-ULSF days. The additives Cummins recommends are to raise the lubricity to a higher level than the minimum required by the EPA.

 

[catalinajack]

Never used any additives. Never had any problems.

Do you have a common rail engine?

 

[friz]

LOL kind of difficult to answer a hypothetical, but I trust my mechanic and he uses the ATF fluid in his nearly identical truck, and we both work them pretty hard pulling trailers, etc. I think his reasoning is the lowered quality of diesel today causing injectors to clog and pumps to fail.

Your mechanic is anecdotal evidence. Also advises you on the "lowered quality of diesel today"? He is a wrench turner not a petroleum engineer. It is not difficult to find 10 different mechanics with 10 different opinions. If the vehicle/engine manufacturer recommends an additive, well, that is worth listening to.

 

[catalinajack]

That is interesting, thanks. I wonder what they've done to the new Cummins to solve the diesel fuel issue? Someone above mentioned some type of injector on his engine. I tracked down a man who has a small truck fleet and asked about additives, ATF in particular. He said they use them in his trucks (not ATF). ATF is considered old school and cheaper. It probably doesn't contain the lubricant qualities of fuel additives. The Canadian article I posted above listed a couple additives approved by Cummins (not necessarily recommended) which wouldn't void the warranty. Of course we are taking very different uses, commercial big rigs vs what we drive.

The difference is "old iron" versus common rail injection which sees pressures from 25,000 - 35,000 psi. Lubricity is critical to the life of fuel pumps and injectors on these engines. Unfortunately, Cummins does not make that distinction when recommending a lubricity improver.

 

[Porchhound]

As the article stated, Cummins now "approves" two different additives, based on the quality of fuel I assume. The article also states the refined diesel in Canada doesn't suffer from the same quality/consistency issues as we have down south. I assume the petroleum engineers at Cummins must have found something, as did those working for Cat. or they wouldn't have changed their policies on additives.

It would be helpful if they posted their research findings.

 

[Boat]

I am not an engineer but my understanding is that detergents are needed in motor oil to float products of combustion to the oil filter. There is no combustion in an automatic transmission and less need for detergents.

Stable viscosity for hydraulic performance is vital in automatic transmissions. That, $2 and a dipstick may get you a cup of coffee in a truckstop.

Hi. Long time no see.

 

[Max1]

I am new to diesels.

I bought this on sale in the fall figuring this would be good for diesels?
Is this any good?
Does this fit into this conversation as a benefit to our marine diesels?
Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[rwidman]

When I purchased my Chevy 2500 (used) my mechanic advised putting a cheap quart of transmission fluid with every 20gal of fuel during fill-up. Since then I've put 120K miles on the truck with no injector issues. Does this process make sense in a marinized diesel environment?

If adding transmission fluid to diesel fuel would help anything (other than the sales of transmission fluid), I think the engine manufacturers would suggest this in their owners manuals.

My suggestion would be to follow the advice of the engine manufacturer.

If you have a specific fuel problem, there are additives manufactured to treat these specific problems.

 

[Rich wilmer]

Tranny fluid in your fuel!

Trans fluid is a cleaning agent i used it also in my 55 chevy oil pan to clean the sludge out of my engine the valves quite rattling im not to sure about cleaning my diesel injectors though ? Cause that's all it would do

 

[Tiffany]

Years ago I received the same advice from the mechanics who serviced my Gordini-engined Renault - a fantastic engine. As others mention, lubricity is now a bigger issue for diesels, as well as consideration of diesel particulate filters and their lifetime. Whether a catalytic converter (as found on my VW turbo-diesel) or a DPF, I would exercise caution as oil residues can plug and coat the reactive metals of these filters. For my Perkins T6-354 I've found that products from Cost Effective Maintenance https://costeffective.com.au/product/ftc-decarbonizer/improve starts, smoothness and eliminated smoke. They have a US distributor.

 

[4blade1]

Diesel emissions Shenanigans

So some time around 2009-2010 Diesel #2 became lower in sulfur. It is not that sulfur itself in Diesel is a lubricant but the process of de-sulferization does in fact make Diesel more close to Jet A or low odor Kerosene. that said it is a dry form of Diesel and can make seals and rubber compounds prematurely wear and dry out as it is a better solvent. Though it burns cleaner i.e. less carbon it burns hotter and is a more complete solvent. Adding ATF or some biodiesel to your tank is not a bad idea.

 

[Steel N Time]

Using ATF is nothing new, and not shade tree. Insults to guys who were using ATF long before most additives were available are coming from ignorant people.

Sticky valve in a gas engine, slight carbon knock, pour some ATF down the carb while keeping it running…. Clouds of white smoke and suddenly the knock or sticking goes away… It is very good at removing carbon build up.


A Diesel engine will run on all kinds of things, hydraulic fluid, ATF, oil of all kinds. Guys have been filtering the bad stuff out and mixing it in their fuel for decades. I have a friend who is also a heavy mechanic on a lot of large logging equipment, he changes fluids and has drums of used fluids, he developed a filter system and has been mixing it in his fuel for years offsetting his fuel costs.


To answer the actual question of adding ATF with each tank of fuel, I think there are better products out there. Of course they are more expensive. I use Startron on my boat.


I also regularly add Biobore JR to help fight off any unwanted growth… We have good filtration and algae eaters, but I have read that algae in fuel is almost impossible to prevent without additive, so I take the extra step to prevent it. We use our boat about once a month and burn 200-400 gallons, that leaves a lot of time setting and any micro moisture can grow crud…

 

[Alaska Californian 37]

Cleaning not lubrication

I don't know if it makes sense but I do know that the fact that you have had no problems in 120,000 miles means absolutely nothing. You would be better off using a lubricity improver rather than following some shade-tree mechanic's ignorant advice.

It’s not ignorant advice, regardless of who it came from. The combination of cleaning and lubricating capabilities of ATF for injectors, and its ability to dissolve well in diesel make it a definite life extender. You could by multiple products that do the same, however that doesn’t mean they are better (or worse). Assuming someone is a shade-tree mechanic and ignorant is, well… ignorant.

 

[Deano]

I use this in my fuel tanks twice a year. i gallon per tank (250 Gal).

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/biob...lubricity-additive-16-oz--518696?recordNum=31

and

I use the same when filling racors after a filter change.

 

[Bonedoc]

Using ATF is nothing new, and not shade tree. Insults to guys who were using ATF long before most additives were available are coming from ignorant people.

Sticky valve in a gas engine, slight carbon knock, pour some ATF down the carb while keeping it running…. Clouds of white smoke and suddenly the knock or sticking goes away… It is very good at removing carbon build up.


A Diesel engine will run on all kinds of things, hydraulic fluid, ATF, oil of all kinds. Guys have been filtering the bad stuff out and mixing it in their fuel for decades. I have a friend who is also a heavy mechanic on a lot of large logging equipment, he changes fluids and has drums of used fluids, he developed a filter system and has been mixing it in his fuel for years offsetting his fuel costs.


To answer the actual question of adding ATF with each tank of fuel, I think there are better products out there. Of course they are more expensive. I use Startron on my boat.


I also regularly add Biobore JR to help fight off any unwanted growth… We have good filtration and algae eaters, but I have read that algae in fuel is almost impossible to prevent without additive, so I take the extra step to prevent it. We use our boat about once a month and burn 200-400 gallons, that leaves a lot of time setting and any micro moisture can grow crud…

PS Please refrain from perpetuating the myth that “ algae” grows in diesel tanks. It does not.

 

[Steel N Time]

Yes… Algae does not grow in tanks… technically it’s fungus… end result is the same… Algae needs sun light which clearly a dark tank won’t have….

“diesel bug”

 

[jimfrens]

I’d be curious how well ATF mixes with diesel. Maybe do a test in a glass jar…. If it settles out, it’s not going to help much.

 

[Bonedoc]

Correct…. the slimy stringy stuff certainly may resemble algae but…..

a single microorganism or a consortium (group) of microorganisms that grow on fuels. It includes bacteria, filamentous moulds and yeasts. They feed on the hydrocarbons in the fuel and create biomass, biofilms and damaging by-products.

Just thought the “algae” talk shouldn’t be on this educated forum lol

 

[Steel N Time]

I’d be curious how well ATF mixes with diesel. Maybe do a test in a glass jar…. If it settles out, it’s not going to help much.

That’s a lame test…


First off I belief it will mix well, but assuming your fuel tank set perfectly still like a jar allowing it to settle out is flawed… Even at a gentle roll along pace, with pick up and return lines added to the mix the fuel is constantly being mixed. So there is that… ?

 

[Steel N Time]

Correct…. the slimy stringy stuff certainly may resemble algae but…..

a single microorganism or a consortium (group) of microorganisms that grow on fuels. It includes bacteria, filamentous moulds and yeasts. They feed on the hydrocarbons in the fuel and create biomass, biofilms and damaging by-products.

Just thought the “algae” talk shouldn’t be on this educated forum lol

You are 100% correct, we should refrain from spreading myths… I use Biobore to keep growth down… “Algae eaters” are for bacteria not algae.. ?

 

[Bonedoc]

Thank you… I now can return to my web browsing in peace.

 

[ronobrien]

When I purchased my Chevy 2500 (used) my mechanic advised putting a cheap quart of transmission fluid with every 20gal of fuel during fill-up. Since then I've put 120K miles on the truck with no injector issues. Does this process make sense in a marinized diesel environment?

For the most part a diesel is a diesel is a diesel. It doesn't matter where it lives. I am familiar with the idea of fuel additives. There used to be (or maybe still) Marvel Mystery oil. MMO was/is a close relative of ATF. It was sold among others uses as a diesel fuel additive to aid in fuel system lubrication. This concern became greater as sulfur content was lowered over the years as sulfur is a lubricant. How much do these additives help? Real hard to say. Do they hurt? There is no evidence of that, but I think no. They probably don't add greatly to the life of a diesel engine, but if they help you sleep at night, then they are worth it.

 

[ronobrien]

There is a youtube channel "Project Farm" This guy does some amazing at home testing of all kinds of products. He did one on diesel fuel additives. It was very interesting.