Migrating from a sailboat to a motor yacht or trawler. Much confusion.

[Reformed-sailor]

Greetings all-

— I wrote a long post but buried the main question which is this: is there a boat that’s practical to sail the great loop with (bridge clearance 15’) but that can also sail Seattle to Homer AK in the summers? AND can be moved from Miami to San Diego or Seattle cost effectively? Seems a Panama Canal transit and great loop bridge clearance is a combination with nearly no solutions.

For many years I had a sailboat. Loved that boat. When I sold it, though, I vowed “never again”. Yet here I am, once again considering a serious boat purchase— but not immediate. It took me 3-4 years to buy the right sailboat and when I saw it I knew it was right (and at that point I had near memorized every 30 foot used sailboat on the market nationwide.)

I bought the right boat- a 30 foot S2 9.2C. I was glad to sell her because I ended up doing most of my sailing (racing) on other’s boats. She was a bit to unwieldy for me to single hand and my SO was not enthusiastic (bought the boat before we met.)

Now I’m retired, divorced and have the proper time a mistress, er, boat demands.

Anyway, I have decided I want a boat for two things: 1. I want to do the great loop. Plan to sail around Florida area for 6 months or so to get familiar, then do the great loop.

2. I want to start cruising from Seattle to Alaska every spring/summer after doing the great loop. (All previous boating experience was in PNW)

Maybe in winters I’ll go as far south as Mexico or Central America, depending on the boat.

Now I’ve spent a couple weeks trying to find a good cruising motor boat. Loopers have recommended aft cabins like the Bayliner 4788 — but that era seems to be over and no such animals exist. Mid cabins with IPS drives seem to be closest.

I’m looking for something I can single hand and dock totally by myself. I don’t have dedicated crew. I also want 2 heads and 2 cabins at least and a separate shower in the master.

Kinda liking boats based on the IPS system from Volvo.

Yes I know this is a trawler forum, and I’m not sure I want a trawler. Hope that’s ok.

I do want something that can practically do 20-30 knots for extended crossings in coastal regions- to escape weather or minimize pilot fatigue. This is my main concern about pure displacement.

I have money and can afford to spend it, particularly when it comes to safety and it just means burning 3 gallons per mile.

To that end I’m looking for boats built in the last ten years and since I’ll probably buy in 2022 (or when the next financial crisis hits and people are bailing out of, rather than buying boats.)

Coastal sailing I have a good handle on but haven’t done any serious passagemaking. My longest day ever was an epic 90 miles and I hired a captain to help out. When it comes to motor boats, though it’s a whole different ballgame.

Any suggestions if educational courses for power boaters I should take? I have coastal nav down pretty good, but handling sea and basic power boating.

Here’s some of the boats I’m infatuated with, trawlers first:
Kady Krogan
Benneteau Swift
Prestige 460-560
Nordic Tugs - love the tug look
Cruisers Cantius 45-50’
Benneteau Gran Tourismo
Nordhavn 43

Catamarans! Love them, hate heeling.
Aspen C105-C150 a C120 has done the Panama Canal and a non-refueled circumnavigation of Vancouver Island.
Aquila 44
Maybe Aquila 36- be fun great loop boat then sell and move to PNW. Or maybe small enough to truck to west coast... but Alaska worthy?

Thanks for your thoughts. This is just a brain dump. I’d love to find out that shipping a boat between coasts is cheap and easy. (Eg cheaper and faster and easier than a solo Panama canal transit.)

 

[Reformed-sailor]

I should add, my budget is flexible but I’m targeting boats that sell today for around $1M-$1.5M, assuming that in 2023 the 2019 built boat will have lost %30 of it’s value or more.

A better approach might be to buy something small in the $100k range sooner and spend time on it then trade up. That’s why I’m looking at the Jeanneau NC1095 and open to a small cost effective trawler or tug.

Outboards seem to be a whole lot cheaper than inboards and I like them better anyway from a maintenance standpoint.

But the small rugs/trawlers seem to be unusually expensive. Mainly because they come from small makers and are in high demand. (This is why I’m looking at conglomerate built boats- they can afford to iterate faster and give a better value because mold costs don’t dominate as much.). That’s economics of the industry, and we have the evil luxury tax that killed the American boat industry to thank.

 

[Rain Dog]

is there a boat that’s practical to sail the great loop with (bridge clearance 15’) but that can also sail Seattle to Homer AK in the summers? AND can be moved from Miami to San Diego or Seattle cost effectively? Seems a Panama Canal transit and great loop bridge clearance is a combination with nearly no solutions.

A boat that can do both the loop and cruise the West Coast is fairly easy. You want a boat that can be moved cost effectively? Then you are looking at a small boat, which does not seem to be what you have in mind based on your list below. However given your price range, assuming you are only planning to move the boat once, I think you could afford to move a boat that is not really "cost effective" to move, so I would not worry much about that requirement.

Here’s some of the boats I’m infatuated with, trawlers first:
Kady Krogan
Benneteau Swift
Prestige 460-560
Nordic Tugs - love the tug look
Cruisers Cantius 45-50’
Benneteau Gran Tourismo
Nordhavn 43

Catamarans! Love them, hate heeling.
Aspen C105-C150 a C120 has done the Panama Canal and a non-refueled circumnavigation of Vancouver Island.
Aquila 44
Maybe Aquila 36- be fun great loop boat then sell and move to PNW. Or maybe small enough to truck to west coast... but Alaska worthy?

Given your desire for speed and a fair amount of open ocean use, I would seriously consider a convertible like a Viking or an Egg Harbor.

 

[Reformed-sailor]

I would seriously consider a convertible like a Viking or an Egg Harbor.

Thanks. Hadn’t heard of those brands. Will check them out.

 

[O C Diver]

Welcome to the forum!
The Great Loop is a wonderful trip. If it's likely you will only do it once, buy a boat suited to do it, do it, and then sell it. The cost of moving a boat from the East coast to the West coast would likely be significantly more than the what you will lose buying and selling a Great Loop boat. When I did the Loop in 2017, this seemed to be a pretty common practice with maybe 20 to 30% of the Loopers I met, doing it.

Ted

 

[ranger58sb]

Seems a Panama Canal transit and great loop bridge clearance is a combination with nearly no solutions.

???

Can't be that hard; I suspect any of the largest boats that can do the Great Loop (19' max bridge clearance somewhere near Chicago, I think) would be OK for the Canal transit and west coast travel. Maybe more limited to kindly weather windows, until up near the PNW, but still...

The AGLCA site probably has boatloads of info about which boats have done the Loop, and there are several boats mentioned here. Pick one.

-Chris

 

[Reformed-sailor]

Welcome to the forum!
The Great Loop is a wonderful trip. If it's likely you will only do it once, buy a boat suited to do it, do it, and then sell it. The cost of moving a boat from the East coast to the West coast would likely be significantly more than the what you will lose buying and selling a Great Loop boat. When I did the Loop in 2017, this seemed to be a pretty common practice with maybe 20 to 30% of the Loopers I met, doing it.

Ted

I have no idea if I’ll do it more than once. I’m going into semi-retirement so I have lots of time. It seems Florida and the Caribbean have lots of great cruising, and also Alaska too. I know I want to do both and the great loop.

But for the great loop maybe I should just buy a Macgregor 26X. Do the loop with the mast down in powerboat mode. Then trailer it wherever to do light sailing for a few years. See if I really want to spend more time in Florida or Alaska and then sell it and buy a “real boat”.

I won’t lose any meaningful money in a Macgregor. And I can trailer it myself between coasts. I was thinking bridge clearance, but this is a boat where you can easily drop the mast. Just not sure about the being able to make a 300 mile distance between fuel. May have to put a diesel outboard in it.

You’ve done the loop- I’m imagining it’s mostly a lot calmer than puget sound and that the worst of the Great Lakes (in good weather, I will stay in port during bad weather) is not worse than bad weather on puget sound.)

The Macgregor isn’t... luxurious.... but should be ok for me with some fixing up.

What boat did you do the loop in?

 

[Rain Dog]

But for the great loop maybe I should just buy a Macgregor 26X. Do the loop with the mast down in powerboat mode. Then trailer it wherever to do light sailing for a few years. See if I really want to spend more time in Florida or Alaska and then sell it and buy a “real boat”.

Given that plan, I would buy a Ranger Tug or similar.

 

[DavidM]

So, let me summarize:

You want a comfortable newish boat that will go 20+ kts when you want to, be shippable from coast to coast and costs about $1 MM today. I note that your comments about owning an S2 9.2C, hopefully a joking comment about doing the loop in a Macgregor 26 and interest in outboard powered boats all makes me wonder about your financial capabilities.

But let's take your $1+MM budget at face value. Almost none of the boats in your list meet those criteria, either because they are too slow or too difficult to ship coast to coast. Any boat with a flybridge has to have it removed to truck any distance. You could ship by boat but that is a pain to schedule and everyone that I am aware of like the company that used to be Dockwise, ships from Ensenada to Miami as US maritime regulations don't allow US port to US port shipments by foreign flagged boats. And they aren't cheap at $30-50,000 per trip (but maybe that isn't a problem).

So that leaves downeaster and downeaster style boats like MJMs and Sabres. Both MJMs and Sabres have twin engines at that size. Here is an almost new MJM 40 at the top of your price range:https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2018/mjm-40z-downeast-3485522/. There are lots of Sabres for less, both 42s and 48s.

Bespoke downeasters are typically singles and here is a gorgeous one that is new and reasonably priced: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2018/northern-bay-38-hardtop-sedan-3178723/.

So what did I miss: speed, comfort, shipability, price?

David

 

[Reformed-sailor]

So, let me summarize:

Ultimately I want a boat good for Seattle to Homer cruising in the summer. Before doing that more serious cruising, I plan to spend some time in Florida and eventually do the great loop.

I attempted to remove money from the equation. A boat costing $1M now will be $500k in 5-6 years, even less in an economic crisis.

I brought it up only because it’s usually a critical factor for most people and it isn’t as much if one for me. That said, I’d rather spend the same amount on a better boat than one that is built by a fancy name or has fancy woodwork. I see a team deck and I just see it as wasted money. Give me plastic with awlgrip.

I just read an article about a guy who this year kayaked from Montana to the Gulf of Mexico. I don’t think a Macgregor 26 is going to be roughing it too much, and it would sold the transportation issue.

Most boats that seem ocean rated (Eg capable of transiting the Panama Canal) are also too big for the great loop. A Nautulus 650 looks like a fantastic boat. I could afford to buy it in a few years. It’s ocean A rated. It would be fine in the Panama Canal and in Alaskan waters. No need to ship it, just take it thru the Canal... maybe eventually sound South America. But that’s too big, too much boat and too luxurious for me. Plus would require crew.

I’m just looking for info in boat transport and whether there is something that’s both capable of a Panama crossing and yet low enough for the great loop (15’ bridge clearance.)

In theory one could take a very small boat thru the Panama Canal, but that’s a level of risk I’m not looking for. (Not the Canal so much as the offshore crossings to and from it.)

 

[Reformed-sailor]

Given that plan, I would buy a Ranger Tug or similar.

Ranger Tugs are kinda nice. I like you can get one with an outboard. One of the challenges is almost all the reasonable sized boats (and even too many big boats) are designed for weekend use at longest. With the Macgregor, which is also even less equipped than a ranger, I would equip it with a fridge, freezer, heater, electrical system etc... and I could do that without tearing a lot of stuff out. With a ranger I’d have to tear a bunch of stuff out to replace it to achieve months at a time livability.

 

[Reformed-sailor]

But let's take your $1+MM budget at face value. Almost none of the boats in your list meet those criteria, either because they are too slow or too difficult to ship coast to coast. Any boat with a flybridge has to have it removed to truck any distance.

Did you look at my list? None of them have fly bridges though some come in versions with flybridges. A fly ridge won’t fit under the bridge clearances in the great loop. All of the ones on the list are fast enough, only the Krogan I think won’t do 20 knots.

At the start of this thread I had no idea of shipping costs and that’s exactly why I created the thread.



“So that leaves downeaster and downeaster style boats like MJMs and Sabres.
So what did I miss: speed, comfort, shipability, price?”

I’ll check out MJM and Sabre’s. Downeasters do fit the bridge clearance, much like express cruisers. But are they trailerable? Or do you think they are appropriate for a Panama crossing?

 

[DavidM]

OK, now I am really confused. So anything from a Macgregor 26 to a Nautilus 650 meets your requirements .


Seriously, read Boat Search 101 here: http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/boat-search-101-a-14905.html, and think about what is really important. Maybe break your search into an immediate boat for the loop, then one for the PNW, BC and Alaska and finally one that combines the best of all.


David

 

[Spinner]

As an aside on Ranger Tugs, I took my 31 Ranger Tug sedan to Alaska in 2017. 3 months onboard, guests about half the time I put an Engel freezer in the lazarette, in addition to the two small built-in refers.

No issues!!

 

[O C Diver]

I have no idea if I’ll do it more than once. I’m going into semi-retirement so I have lots of time. It seems Florida and the Caribbean have lots of great cruising, and also Alaska too. I know I want to do both and the great loop.

But for the great loop maybe I should just buy a Macgregor 26X. Do the loop with the mast down in powerboat mode. Then trailer it wherever to do light sailing for a few years. See if I really want to spend more time in Florida or Alaska and then sell it and buy a “real boat”.

I won’t lose any meaningful money in a Macgregor. And I can trailer it myself between coasts. I was thinking bridge clearance, but this is a boat where you can easily drop the mast. Just not sure about the being able to make a 300 mile distance between fuel. May have to put a diesel outboard in it.

You’ve done the loop- I’m imagining it’s mostly a lot calmer than puget sound and that the worst of the Great Lakes (in good weather, I will stay in port during bad weather) is not worse than bad weather on puget sound.)

The Macgregor isn’t... luxurious.... but should be ok for me with some fixing up.

What boat did you do the loop in?

I did the Loop in the boat you see in my avatar, a Cherubini 45.

You could certainly do it in a Macgregor, it's been done in much smaller. Don't underestimate the conditions that can develop on the Great Lakes. Also, you will be crossing the Northeast corner of the Gulf of Mexico (80 miles minimum) of open water.


Ted

 

[Seevee]

OK, now I am really confused. So anything from a Macgregor 26 to a Nautilus 650 meets your requirements .


Seriously, read Boat Search 101 here: http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/boat-search-101-a-14905.html, and think about what is really important. Maybe break your search into an immediate boat for the loop, then one for the PNW, BC and Alaska and finally one that combines the best of all.


David

Totally agree.....

Reformed-sailor, your wants are all over the place. I might argue to sharpen the pencil and get what works for the occasion.

Can't comment on the Alaskan trips and NW stuff, as it's not in my agenda, but for the loop, you can do VERY well with a nice trawler in the 35 to 45 ft range and spend anywhere from 200K to 2MM, but there's a TON of choices in the less that 700K range.

I could argue strongly to NOT convert a sailboat to a temporary power boat for the loop. Just too many negatives to mention, and very few positives.

Do the loop, sell you loop boat and get your NW/Alaska boat for that part of your life.

If you're planning to do the loop again, just keep your loop boat somewhere for your future looping, and perhaps get someone to use it to keep it exercised. There's plenty of good folks that would do it. And get your Alaska boat separated for your Alaska stuff. If you're spending north of 1.5MM you can certainly afford that.

Food for thought.

 

[Reformed-sailor]

Maybe break your search into an immediate boat for the loop, then one for the PNW, BC and Alaska and finally one that combines the best of all.

Literally this is what I was suggesting the Macgregor for, and you used it as an excuse to dishonestly characterize me.

OK, now I am really confused. So anything from a Macgregor 26 to a Nautilus 650 meets your requirements .

I guess discussing different possibilities is too much for you to handle.

Whatever, you’re not trying to help, so I don’t care to hear from you further. Bye!

 

[Reformed-sailor]

Duplicate

 

[otis maximus]

I see where this is going!

 

[Reformed-sailor]

I did the Loop in the boat you see in my avatar, a Cherubini 45.

You could certainly do it in a Macgregor, it's been done in much smaller. Don't underestimate the conditions that can develop on the Great Lakes. Also, you will be crossing the Northeast corner of the Gulf of Mexico (80 miles minimum) of open water.


Ted

Good points... the thinking though with the Macgregor is that 80 miles is 2 hours at 40 knots, so you could pick your weather and go fast.... though I’ve only seen it in powerboat mode on lakes. Hmm.

Unfortunately a whole lot of boat makers on the smaller dude got wiped out in the past several decades, and the boats that used to be made that were prime targets for members of this forum to buy 15-20 years ago, are now 40 years old, and the companies are long gone.

Not just the luxury tax of the 1980s, but the Great Recession took a bunch of them out too. I can’t seem to go buy a new Cherubini pilothouse. Newest I found was 2003. (For financing reasons I’m looking for 15 year old boats or younger.)

The market has moved on too. Loopers seem to recommend the aft cabins that don’t seem to be made by anybody. The Bayliner 4788 became the Meridian 5xx and Meridian stopped making them and now makes an express cruiser like what’s several on my initial list- though they seem to have flybridges.

Hence me looking at the Swift Trawler and Prestige series- both by the same parent company, both semidisplacement.

 

[Reformed-sailor]

Is there anyone still making a modern pilothouse like the Cherubini? Any of them with a modern plant like the Volvo IPS?

The Swift Trawler and others are similar, but I’m talking about where the cabin is the full beam, like the Cherubini Independence and the pilot house is narrower with a side door to access the foredeck.

I really like the look and layout of the Cherubini. (Ranger tugs are like tug versions of this concept, and I’m looking at them. Too bad they don’t make a 40-50 footer with two heads and IPS.)

 

[Fletcher500]

You want a pilot house style boat with pod drives?

 

[O C Diver]

Is there anyone still making a modern pilothouse? Any of them with a modern plant like the Volvo IPS?

The Swift Trawler is similar, but I’m talking about like the Cherubini Independence where the cabin is the full beam, and the pilot house is narrower with a side door to access the foredeck.

I really like the look and layout of the Cherubini. (Ranger tugs are like tug versions of this concept, and I’m looking at them. Too bad they don’t make a 40 footer with two heads and IPS.)

Before you get your heart set on an IPS drive boat, you might want to look where service facilities are and aren't. While I wouldn't say they are failure prone, if you accidentally hit a submerged object on plane, if the IPS is still attached, you will probably need some service. When you go off the beaten path (much of the Great Loop) you will probably find little to no support available. Not saying there's anything wrong with them, but just like a European motor, I would be hesitant to picking propulsion component that I likely couldn't get serviced in many of the places I planned to cruise.

Ted

 

[BruceK]

Isn`t the IPS designed to drop off if well struck by an object and retrieved after? And while it`s a different can of worms, don`t they come attached to a Volvo?
The McGregor sounds a good idea for a long solo trip. Then something else long term, with more creature comforts and size.

 

[O C Diver]

Isn`t the IPS designed to drop off if well struck by an object and retrieved after? And while it`s a different can of worms, don`t they come attached to a Volvo?
The McGregor sounds a good idea for a long solo trip. Then something else long term, with more creature comforts and size.

Yes, it's my understanding as a safety feature, it will break off so as not to leave a large hole in your hull. Finding it is the first issue. Not sure if you can reattach it and how much the parts cost. Probably also requires a qualified IPS mechanic.

Ted

 

[Seevee]

I'd certainly agree with the IPS drives. They are a "high risk" feature that's just not needed for the most part. Of the friends that have them a high percentages are not real happy with them. Comments about failures and just running rough and "clunking".... and they are not the end all.

 

[ranger58sb]

A fly ridge won’t fit under the bridge clearances in the great loop.

I’ll check out MJM and Sabre’s. Downeasters do fit the bridge clearance, much like express cruisers. But are they trailerable? Or do you think they are appropriate for a Panama crossing?

Au contraire, ref bridge clearance. Many flybridge boats like ours have done the Loop. Our minimum air draft (given the hardtop) is just over 16', another 1½' with the radar... The 19' minimum can't be all that hard to solve, given the number of flybridge boats that have done it already. (And I suspect Ted's boat is taller than ours, actually.)

I don't know that MJM, Sabre, Hinkcley, etc. make boats that are "trailerable" in the owner-does-it-routinely sense... but they're all likely more easily (less expensively) shipped than would be many flybridge boats that need their "lid" removed for that kind of over-the-road transit.

Not sure I'd consider the Panama Canal an "ocean" thing. Even Sea Ray SunDancers can make that transit... and I think I'd be more concerned about the long legs up the west coast... I wouldn't hesitate to run an MJM/Sabre/Hinckley across the Canal and then north...

But in any case, almost any boat that's decent for coastal travel could likely work. And there are lots of stories out there about Ranger tugs and C-Dories going back and forth from Seattle to Alaska. Seems fairly common, so if they can do it, I'd expect there are many others.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

Isn`t the IPS designed to drop off if well struck by an object and retrieved after? And while it`s a different can of worms, don`t they come attached to a Volvo?
The McGregor sounds a good idea for a long solo trip. Then something else long term, with more creature comforts and size.

There are also Cummins/Zeus (ZF) and ZF pod FWIW, versions...

I've seen pics of the inside of a McGregor. Doubt I'd be up for 6000 NM (or whatever our Great Loop is) in one... Even a Ranger 31 would be cramped (but better), but then there's two of us, and usually a critter of some sort...

Happens there's a nice looking Ranger 31 in our marina just now, new tenant since late Summer... Looks very decent, but haven't taken a tour yet...

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

The Swift Trawler and others are similar, but I’m talking about where the cabin is the full beam, like the Cherubini Independence and the pilot house is narrower with a side door to access the foredeck.

I really like the look and layout of the Cherubini. (Ranger tugs are like tug versions of this concept, and I’m looking at them. Too bad they don’t make a 40-50 footer with two heads and IPS.)

Some in the 40-50' "motor yacht" category have that kind of interior and otherwise covered space, along with lower helms and side doors... if you can abide the styling.

-Chris

 

[CptnPete]

I believe the original MJM boats in the 40'+/- range were designed so they could fit inside a standard container for shipping anywhere. I think they were originally I/o's, but also can come with IB, pod, and outboard configuration. Not cheap.