Mechanic bill dispute

[BruceK]

Part of what you pay for is his skill expertise and competence in his field. If you don`t get what you pay for it can be a failure of consideration. You were trading $ for competent work.
Showing he was not working competently is not so easy, just not fixing it isn`t enough,it might be a tough problem.
Try to negotiate payment, and do it nicely.

 

[BandB]

BandB I do not look for discounts or freelancer and I also do not know of anyone that writes a contract for general repairs. This shop has been in business for over 20 years. I do not agree about you pay for time and not results, if he did not know what was wrong just say so. That is my point he did not spend 10 hours on my job.

Prove he didn't spend ten hours then. As to no one writing a contract, every yard I know of fills out paperwork and you sign. They don't have you sign any paperwork on which they've written what you want done?

 

[SteveK]

I tend to speed read and may have missed the part where we learn what the neighbor was able to fix in one hour that the 'tech' could not in 10 hours.

 

[BrianG]

I tend to speed read and may have missed the part where we learn what the neighbor was able to fix in one hour that the 'tech' could not in 10 hours.

Kartracer, what *was* actually wrong that the neighbor fixed?

 

[Benthic2]

I think it depends on what his hourly rate is. If he is charging $25/hour, you can't expect him to be a first rate mechanic. In this case, you aren't paying for, nor should you expect an expert. You owe him 10 Hours. If he is charging $100+/hour, you have a legitimate expectation of competency, which he has not demonstrated. You are entitled to negotiate the invoice due to his inability to justify the hourly wage of an expert.

 

[ksanders]

My opinion is that you had a verbal contract to have this mechanic solve specific problems on your boat.

He in not solving those problems has not done what he agreed to do and had therefore not fulfilled his obligations under your contract.

Because of that he does not get paid one cent.

If... If he had solved the problems you and he agreed that he was contracted to solve then almost no matter what he billed you for, you would need to pay, since you had no specific agreement as to parts or labor hours authorized.

But since he failed to resolve the problems you hired him to resolve he again is in breach, and does not get paid.

 

[ctjstr]

I'd certainly not pay the bill in full. I've dealt with similar situations a bunch of times through my office and while no two deals are the same, here's a couple thoughts.
While its true you owe for time fixing the boat, that's on the assumption that he knows what he's doing, and it seems as if that' s not so much the case. Contracts go both ways;you agree to pay him for parts and service, but he agrees to use the right parts and do the correct service. He apparently didn't live up to his end of the bargain. I'd offer him a compromise amount, no more than half since he didn't get the job done. As far as the parts, I'd argue on that. Of course you owe for parts necessary to fix a problem. But if he just starts swapping parts and doesn't get it fixed, I'd tell him he can have his parts back, just return yours. He won't do that, so I'd again suggest a a compromise. Of course the exception would be if he said something like "I'm not sure its the carb, but I can change it and see, what do you think?" If you agreed to that, then you own it.

I disagree with the folks who say just bite the bullet and pay the bill. I'd dispute the bill, but pay something. If you don't give him anything, you're guaranteed a collection. If you at least give him something, you've got a chance he may not want to go to court.

One thing I'd try if you send him some money is to put a restrictive endorsement or "payment in full" notation on the check. You can write on the memo line something like "negotiation acknowledges payment in full". It doesn't always work and I have no idea what the law is in La. but what can in hurt? We do it quite often and usually send with a letter confirming that acceptance is payment in full and directing that the check be returned if they don't agree.

good luck.

 

[FF]

"A tech worth his wage can properly troubleshoot the issue, find the issue, fix it (including parts) and satisfy the customer at a fair price. You might pay more for an experienced tech, but worth it in the long run."

YES!

This is the key to any repair . Turning a wrench is no big deal, but having the understanding and knowledge to trouble shoot IS.

A very few steps are required to figure out just what is causing a no start, tossing parts in is not one of them.

You hired a wrench turner , not a mechanic.

 

[kartracer]

BrianG The main engine 454ci mechanic said it was problems with carb but coil was bad

Benthic2 115hr.

For him not repairing anything and for charging for extra is my beef.

I am going to pay for all parts, even though he has the parts that are not bad, and half his labor. Does that seem fair?

 

[O C Diver]

I don't think you can argue with the hours. If he rebuilt the carburetor, that implies that he removed it, took it to his shop, rebuilt it, and then reinstalled it, clearly more than the hours spent at the boat.

It's also hard to argue that part of the problem wasn't the carburetor not working correctly. As an example, you could have bad fuel trash the fuel pump, get past the fuel filter, and gum up the carburetor. All 3 items need to be replaced or rebuilt. Determining that the carburetor needs to be rebuilt doesn't mean that after rebuilding it and installing a new fuel filter, that you won't then find that the fuel pump is now bad and the fuel tank needs to be cleaned.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

I guess I have to look at it like a medical doctor.... they get paid whether they cure you or not.

Unless it says so in a contract , I'm not sure you can get out of it other than negotiation with the mechanic himself

 

[smitty477]

BrianG The main engine 454ci mechanic said it was problems with carb but coil was bad

Benthic2 115hr.

For him not repairing anything and for charging for extra is my beef.

I am going to pay for all parts, even though he has the parts that are not bad, and half his labor. Does that seem fair?

It does not matter what we think is fair without all the facts - it likely is best for you to be speaking with the mechanic as soon as possible.
Things such as: is the marina involved? Do you have a quote/estimate? Did you 'direct' any of the work? Was any of the work needed/required for the total solution?
All of this and more is part of a resolution ….
Hope it works out for all.

 

[Woodland Hills]

If it goes to court the only question is if he can document the 10 hours. The court will not get involved with the success of the work, that is a matter of opinion regarding quality, not a matter of fact. Courts and judges prefer to deal in matters of fact that can be documented not opinion.

If he can show reasonable travel time and come up with a flat rate book to show how long it takes to clean and rebuild a carb he will win. It’s a Chevy big block: there are lots of shop manuals that detail the cleaning and rebuild process and the time involved for a Holley or Rochester carb. The whole concept of billing for a flat rate out of a manual is also long enshrined in civil law. You are not going to beat that.

As far as your buddy fixing it by replacing the coil, all the mechanic needs to say is that the coil was the next step on the troubleshooting tree and that the carb needed cleaning and rebuilding to eliminate it from the equation. Prove otherwise. Fueling troubles often present as electrical and visa versa: it was a 50/50 choice and if the mechanic had started with the coil he’d be a hero now.

 

[Ski in NC]

Just have a friendly conversation with the guy and question the details of the bill. You still owe some for his efforts and time, but most mechs will discount a lot of it when there was no success. Some mechs throw every minute into a bill and hope the owner just blindly writes a check. If called out on it, especially without success, most will reduce it.

Just try to keep it non-confrontational.

And don't use him again. A no-start on a carb 454 is super basic to troubleshoot. If he failed to find a bad coil in the first ten minutes, he should not be in that line of work.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

"A tech worth his wage can properly troubleshoot the issue, find the issue, fix it (including parts) and satisfy the customer at a fair price. You might pay more for an experienced tech, but worth it in the long run."

YES!

This is the key to any repair . Turning a wrench is no big deal, but having the understanding and knowledge to trouble shoot IS.

A very few steps are required to figure out just what is causing a no start, tossing parts in is not one of them.

You hired a wrench turner , not a mechanic.

You are welcome!! Courtesy of the United State Air Force and my dad showing me how engines work.

And don't use him again. A no-start on a carb 454 is super basic to troubleshoot. If he failed to find a bad coil in the first ten minutes, he should not be in that line of work.

On a GAS engine you need 4 things to make it run:

1. Compression
2 Air
3. Fuel
4. Spark

That's it. If any of the above is not there the engine will not run.

 

[FF]

"On a GAS engine you need 4 things to make it run:

1. Compression
2 Air
3. Fuel
4. Spark"


So the first 30 second check is to spray some starting fluid into the carb , if it runs for a couple of seconds and stops its probably a fuel issue.

If it cranks and doesn't start , look at the ignition.

Not that hard .

 

[slowgoesit]

He replaced a lift pump, he replaced a carburetor, and spent some time troubleshooting. All of this labor includes travel time. I suspect he has a minimum number of billable hours. Even if his mini is 1 hr, anything under 1 hr. gets billed as 1 hr. He is more than likely based on the 'book' time.

You get billed on parts and labor not 'fixed/no fixed'. It'll be hard to refute the billable hours.

I have a slightly different take on the above.

First: He misdiagnosed the problem, and replaced a part that didn't need to be replaced. Then he misdiagnosed again, and replaced another part that didn't need to be replaced . . .

I have a friend who works on cars whose business moto is "Test, don't Guess!"
I've seen LOTS of parts changers in automotive, boat, and aviation industry. They don't know crap about troubleshooting, just know if you replace enough parts, you'll eventually replace the faulty one . . . and the customer gets the bill. Tell the Mechanic that you would like a new bill for half the labor charges since you shouldn't pay for misdiagnosis, and that you'll eat the parts to keep as spares. Otherwise you will post his name, the itemized invoice on Yelp, Angies List, and CL, keeping it VERY FACTUAL, also post the fact that your neighbor fixed one of the problems in minimal time. Let him choose. If he refuses to reduce his bill, pay it, and post the FACTS everywhere you can think of.
Frankly, as a licensed A & P, I'd be embarrassed to charge for ineffectual or failed work.

 

[BruceK]

BrianG The main engine 454ci mechanic said it was problems with carb but coil was bad

Benthic2 115hr.

For him not repairing anything and for charging for extra is my beef.

I am going to pay for all parts, even though he has the parts that are not bad, and half his labor. Does that seem fair?

Seems a very fair approach on your part. I`d be interested how he supports his bill, he might accept it was "not his finest day"on the job.
Offering it with the blackmail publicity threats suggested won`t help. Offering it with payment on the basis it`s a full final settlement if accepted, might help. Depends how discussion with him is going.

 

[Portage_Bay]

The responses range from "Just pay the bill" to playing hardball of one sort or another.

Have you approached him and simply said you think the bill is too high and you'd appreciate a break?

I may have missed it but I don't recall seeing you saying you had asked for a reduction.

That would be my first tack before playing rough.

Be prepared to get tough if need be. But making that your first response will likely only lead to a fight.

 

[ctjstr]

BrianG The main engine 454ci mechanic said it was problems with carb but coil was bad

Benthic2 115hr.

For him not repairing anything and for charging for extra is my beef.

I am going to pay for all parts, even though he has the parts that are not bad, and half his labor. Does that seem fair?

too much. Offer him half of each. Remember, once you start negotiating, its like buying a used car. IF he's agreeable to a negotiation, he's not likely to accept your first offer and will counter with something. But at the end of the day, you've had lots of advice here, both good and not so good, (I say that because I've done this kind of thing for a living for 40 plus years) but make up your own mind and get it done. Its only worth so much heartburn. IF you end up in small claims court, send me a PM and I'll give you a few hints.
Have fun.

toni

 

[Capt. Jon]

You are welcome!! Courtesy of the United State Air Force and my dad showing me how engines work.



On a GAS engine you need 4 things to make it run:

1. Compression
2 Air
3. Fuel
4. Spark

That's it. If any of the above is not there the engine will not run.

That’s it! It’s pretty simple. I’d add one other item and that’s all of the above in the right place at the right time.

 

[BDofMSP]

Why is the assumption that since the first thing changed didn't fix it, then it MUST have not needed replacement? Many problems (not sure about this one because I don't think I know what the neighbor did to finally fix it) are complex interactions between systems, not just one part. If he had started, done the 3 things, and 10 hours later given you back a perfectly running boat, would you still be angry about it? Or would you just be satisfied that he did what it took to make it right?

 

[Shrew]

Why is the assumption that since the first thing changed didn't fix it, then it MUST have not needed replacement? Many problems (not sure about this one because I don't think I know what the neighbor did to finally fix it) are complex interactions between systems, not just one part. If he had started, done the 3 things, and 10 hours later given you back a perfectly running boat, would you still be angry about it? Or would you just be satisfied that he did what it took to make it right?

I agree. I troubleshoot complex systems for a living. Sometimes you have a 'hole in the bucket scenario'. Sometimes there are multiple variables involved.

Sometimes Problem A is actually masking problem B.

What I find interesting (and somewhat telling) is that after approx. 10 hours worth of work, and multiple parts, the neighbor shows up to 'carry the ball the last yard' and gets all the credit. I'm curious if the neighbor would have been as successful if he were the first person to show up?

 

[MYTraveler]

You are welcome!! Courtesy of the United State Air Force and my dad showing me how engines work.



On a GAS engine you need 4 things to make it run:

1. Compression
2 Air
3. Fuel
4. Spark

That's it. If any of the above is not there the engine will not run.

I would add:
5. All at the right time.

 

[Landshark]

You hired him. What were the terms and conditions of his employment? Absent specific conditions otherwise you are responsible for reasonable and customary expenses. Absent an agreement otherwise, the outcome of his employment (fixed or not) is irrelevant.

 

[Bryant]

Called mechanic to work on main engine and Gen. He started working on engine but couldn't get it running. He said needed parts for carb. worked on Gen but couldn't fix that either. He said Carb needed to be rebuilt. Total of 1 hr on boat. Came back another time to replace carb on Gen. That didn't fix it. 1/2 hr on boat. Replaced fuel lift pump on another visit, still wouldn't run. Said he needed to talk to Westerbeke to solve the problem. Another 45 mins. On main engine my neighbor came over and fixed the problem in less than 1 hr. What should I pay the mechanic that didn't fix anything?

Told Mechanic I was sending Gen Carb to another shop for repair; since he didn't know what was going on. I told him to send bill for what was owed. Received invoice for parts replaced, and 10 hrs of labor. How should I handle the payment since he didn't fix anything and is charging for 10 hrs of labor?

WHAT SHOLULD I DO?

Am I missing something? Diesel engine, diesel generator, carburetor?

 

[Andiamo2018]

Pay him.

If your boss thought you didn't do as good a job as possible and decided to cut your pay what would you say?

Have you ever made a mistake at work and had your pay cut? You might get fired but having your pay cut?

What would you say if your boss came to you and said "I'm not that happy with your work last week. Let's negotiate a lower paycheck for you."

Pay him. Sheese.

 

[jeffnick]

You are welcome!! Courtesy of the United State Air Force and my dad showing me how engines work.



On a GAS engine you need 4 things to make it run:

1. Compression
2 Air
3. Fuel
4. Spark

That's it. If any of the above is not there the engine will not run.

There was one more when I went to school.
TIMING

 

[Landshark]

Apparently you did not understand my comments. Absent a contract with quid pro quo terms about the outcome of the work, the boat owner is liable for payment to the mechanic. So, yes, pay the mechanic and be more explicit about future engagements.

 

[JoeApicella]

On a gas engine any mechanic worth his salt should be able to diagnose a no start condition in an hour or less. The engine only need 3 things to run, air, fuel, and spark, in the right place at the right time. Unless this is a computer controlled engine its a pretty easy diagnosis. He apparently does not know what he's doing and should be paid accordingly. He's just a parts changer, not a technician. I would negotiate his bill based on that. I had a 8hp Honda 4 stroke that wouldn't start. Took it to a "reputable" dealer and they charged me for 3 hours labor to tell me it lacked compression. When I spoke with the owner he agreed that 1 hour diagnostic time should have been sufficient and charged me accordingly. You should pay for results, not guesswork or the education of a know nothing mechanic. I ALWAYS ask up front for an estimate and never leave diagnostic time open ended.