Marine products quality not so great.

[moparharn]

This thread is drifting, but to be clear Apple has invested tens of billions into China. Who do you think made that manufacturing equipment? The Chinese?
Foxconn is owned by Taiwan and not China. China has very wisely encouraged this investment and then copied all of it. Cheap aftermarket products being resourced to China are of inferior quality in many or most cases to what they were before resourcing. Marine products in particular. I have tried to stay on marine products. Comparing with Apple and Honda do has nothing to do with my posts.
Just like Japan, it will take time for them to learn from, and improve on, the things they have learned from others early on in their manufacturing ascent. There is no free lunch. Just nearly free labor and government subsidies which American businesses have been all too happy to line their pockets with.

Today the paper is filled with stories of the Russians and the Chinese hacking onto our most sensitive government systems. Imminent threat it is called. These people are not our friends and we need to quit acting like they are. In the end though, we are getting our butts kicked by them. They need simply take it. Nothing unified about our front. While our civic mud ball fight goes on we are being attacked. This is our fault, and no one else. That was the point of my original post.

First, Apple didn't build, doesn't own the manufacturing facilities where it's product is built in China.

Second, whether China or the US your quality is directly variable based on your level of oversight of the manufacturing. I've seen horrific quality out of poorly monitored contractors in the US and excellent out of well monitored in most of the world. If you're putting your name on it and not monitoring the production, you're taking very unwise risks. But it's like getting a boat built and not having anyone ever on site or getting repairs done and not monitoring.

There is nothing unique in this regard about being located in China. Quality control and quality assurance require effort wherever you are. The US Auto Industry was a disaster at one time and opened the doors to huge inroads by Japanese builders. This had nothing to do with being in the US as they then proved by manufacturing in the US. It had to do with poorly run companies and lousy quality standards.

 

[sunchaser]

I assume you are aware that Honda just recalled about 1 million cars in the US. The MDX being one of them.]

I did read about Honda's recent various model recalls (all appear minor) but you'll have to point me to the recent year MDX recalls. Maybe I'll a get a notice in the mail for Christmas.

A big current recall is with Hyundai and failed engines due to machining debris. Millions of engines, our granddaughter had one replaced just 500 miles before warranty expired. Car died on the highway between Tucson and Phoenix.

Then Takada air bags, yikes!

All of the above, amounting to multi billions of $, are not Chinese products to my limited knowledge.

 

[MurrayM]

Aaron Spelling and his cater to the lowest common denominator success was a red flag, people pinching pennies in exchange for shoddy workmanship and lost local jobs was a knife in the back. The killing blow was shipping containers and the monster ships that carry them which make the 'larger profit/dividend at all cost' globalization race to the bottom possible.

Bit of shipping container history:

https://equipmentmanagementservices...-simple-box-revolutionized-shipping-industry/

 

[moparharn]

Again, We are off track.

"All appear minor"- Yes, they are minor fires that occur randomly in your garage, place of business, on the highway with your family, etc.

All manufacturers have recalls and quality issues. I am talking about a single country and their current status, culture, government, and how this might be the cause of the OP's concern about substandard quality. In my opinion the quality suffered because there is a need to compete with lower prices demanded by us. The boat owners. China is where these companies are going to locate the lower prices. China has problems with the issues I have highlighted. Apple and Honda have nothing to do with this.

 

[MurrayM]

Who complaining here also invests in the stock market with an eye more towards profit and dividends than corporate behaviour?

*Edit*...Own Mac computers, so not immune from blame.

 

[sunchaser]

Mopar
Controlling thread drift to fit one's narrative is a tough chore. BTW, post number one did not mention China, it was about QC. QA/QC is a world wide endeavor crossing all product lines.

It would be interesting to ascertain the QA/QC differences between a Tesla made in CA vs China. Elon has made claims of differences, but are they true?

 

[moparharn]

It is a matter of being on scene and taking a highly active role in the manufacturing. Making a car or a mobile phone would require that intensely. Making a boat hatch or some other piece of marine hardware, no so much. Also, overall exposure and risk for marine hardware is significantly less. In time China will likely be better than any other country in manufacturing excellence. Look at Japan. Look at Korea. The difference- Japan and Korea are our allies. Japan and Korea do not have their sights set on global domination through the communist party.

 

[MurrayM]

It is a matter of being on scene and taking a highly active role in the manufacturing. Making a car or a mobile phone would require that intensely. Making a boat hatch or some other piece of marine hardware, no so much. Also, overall exposure and risk for marine hardware is significantly less. In time China will likely be better than any other country in manufacturing excellence. Look at Japan. Look at Korea. The difference- Japan and Korea are our allies. Japan and Korea do not have their sights set on global domination through the communist party.

It used to puzzle me how the Chinese people could stomach how they are being treated by their own 'government', but then I read a bit on their history.

Any large reworking of central power in China's past came with mind numbing incomprehensible to our western way of thought misery and death. This lives in the 'bone memory' of the people, so, if any one person/system has the strength to hold everything together, whatever suffering incurred is probably better than what would result during regime change.

Maybe some day the people will reach a tipping point beyond recent modern scuffles and kick the Communists out, but I doubt it.

On your last point...I'm of an age where "Made in Japan" used to mean cheap and a bit of a joke. Didn't take long for that to change!

 

[Xsbank]

Quality is not part of the equation any more. One year warranties on marine products? Really? How about what we were just looking at on another thread, a Groco expansion tank for $180 that is a re-marked cheap-ass Chinese junk that you can buy for less than $20 at big-box stores?

I would never buy a new Groco product or for that matter any product that is Chinese.

Starrett, Wilton, Record, even Mitutoyo, all very good names, all building garbage in China while purporting to be US (I know, not Mitutoyo nor Record) but still wanting high prices for awful metallurgy and lowest quality.

My favourite wet-weather gear was made in Canada and was expensive, local seamstresses get living wages here. They shipped most of their production offshore for the same high prices and the products are way lower quality. They deserve to fail for the dishonesty, if not downright fraud while putting skilled workers out of work.

It is a race to the bottom. As snazzy as they are, knowing that they were built for the lowest price is why I'll never again own a production boat.

 

[diver dave]

Buy German.

 

[FF]

Watching "How Its Made" on auto production will notice the huge number of robots use in assembling .

Skill and training with a torque wrench or welder are missing from higher end cars , the robot does it better.

The Chinese built tools that copy world 1950 construction seem fine.

A good vise is a good vise , although heavy, would never trade my Fluke multi meter for any Chinese copy.

 

[sunchaser]

Buy German.

Some years ago I was at a very large industrial site in China. In discussions with the people in charge of purchasing I asked about restrictions on buying machine tools, electronics and other equipment outside of China. They said there were no restrictions on buying German machine tools, their favorites, as they considered those the best in the world. China's high speed rail network started out big with ABB and Siemens equipment, much made in China.

 

[john-o]

moparharn
This more a reality check of being "me-myself-and I, what's good for me, is good for me." The fact that everyone is an individual, not a collective, supports the buy cheapest or look elsewhere. In fact, I could care less if my neighbor gets laid off and his/her factory shuts
down... as long as I have my job. The American factory is a breeding ground for find a better (cheaper) way of doing things. And that's a good thing. The only problem being, we could find a technology replace the old with a doable technology that wouldn't strip the human being out of the flowchart. In my professional career, I've witnessed the closing of so many companies, leaving
millions behind. I've retired as an 18 wheeler driver covering all the lower 48, and those that have changed careers, giving up professional jobs in the aircraft, precision machining, construction trades, maritime/boat building, electronics and so forth... just to make ends meet... by trying to drive truck, is mindboggling. As a trainer, I trained CPA's, teachers, draftsmen, civil engineers, and countless others. Progress is going so fast, that we've built a better way being prosperous - but for many, we can't afford our our prosperity, and yet still, they live on the margins. All you have to do is to look at the open door that the Chinese have to our economy, and the Congress that allowed that - yet we still send these people back into office. How we as Americans can walk by millions of homeless, daily, and still find the time to go sailing, is pathetic.

 

[Kit_L]

Only our individual buying choices can influence this trend, and clearly, businesses that want to stay in business have to make more than they spend (IOW, they need to be competitive).

A local business I am involved with recently made the decision to source brass and bronze locally, and to not source from China as they have done so the last ten years. The new products will be about 40% more expensive. I am happy to pay this, but I imagine many will not be. These decisions depend crucially on one's personal timeline of decision-making: am I primarily driven by cost, or do I take a longer, wider view?

 

[BruceK]

Only our individual buying choices can influence this trend, and clearly, businesses that want to stay in business have to make more than they spend (IOW, they need to be competitive).

A local business I am involved with recently made the decision to source brass and bronze locally, and to not source from China as they have done so the last ten years. The new products will be about 40% more expensive. I am happy to pay this, but I imagine many will not be. These decisions depend crucially on one's personal timeline of decision-making: am I primarily driven by cost, or do I take a longer, wider view?

Trade between countries should be a 2 way street.
If one country refuses the others products, should that other continue buying from the refuser, unless there is no viable alternative?
Not a difficult question.

 

[moparharn]

Great posts. I used to think that we would somehow wake up and see the damage we are doing to ourselves and our children's future. It is clear to me now that there is far too much selfishness in our American society. I thought we would see the light when it came to Covid-19 and certain political behaviors, but we did not. People are too committed to getting their way to consider the needs of the entire group. I consider myself guilty of this behavior when it comes to being stingy, cheap, ruthless, bottom feeding, anything you want to call it. It is perfectly normal to want to have as much buying power as possible, seeing the effects of it are not easy to do.
I came up in my career in union plants working for management. I was naive and young and thought that everyone would see the light and necessity of working together. Sides were draw. Memories burned in. Personal gain at stake. I really liked a lot of those guys and felt deeply for their situation.

Recently I felt what I considered to be a considerable betrayal of the working man. I used to listen to Bruce Springsteen sing his songs about the American blue collar life in tunes like "My Hometown". These songs created even more empathy in me towards the American worker. Bruce recently announced that if Joe Biden did not win he was going to leave the US and live somewhere else.
That two faced hypocritical piece of garbage is going to walk out on the very people he sang for and about. Mr. Red ,White, and Blue like some crying little baby is going to take his jacks and go home if he can't have his way. Selfish and spoiled. This is what we have become. Bruce is a reflection of America. We don't care what happens to everyone else if we cannot have it our way.

The countries who have not had it as good as the US are watching us, picking away at us, feeding our weaknesses, and cleaning their guns.